kona0197 Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Let's pretend you are a ruler over a great many people. These people can not see you or talk to you but they believe in you. You tell them through someone - a prophet or such - that they have free will. So they are allowed to choose as long as they make the choice YOU want them to make. You punish them if they choose a choice that you didn't want them to choose. That makes no sense. They should be allowed to make any decision they want. You can't force people to choose the way YOU want things. If there is only the choice you want them to make there is no other choice therefore no TRUE free will. Get it now? Quote
BenRaines Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 If they are fully aware of the blessings of obedience and the penalty for disobedience then they do have free will to choose. If they think they can get away with disobeying then they will try to. If they believe they want the benefits of the blessings of the benevolent king then they will do what he has asked for the expected reward. Now if the king did not tell them the penalty for disobedience then it would not be fair. Ben Raines Quote
kona0197 Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Posted December 23, 2008 Forcing someone to make a choice is slavery. Or shall we say dictatorship. Quote
BenRaines Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 No force. Free to chose, just know the consequences of the choices made. Simple example. Don't put hand in fire= Don't get burned. Choose to put hand in fire= Get burned. Free to choose but know the consequences. Is the fire being unjust? Forcing your action? No. Ben Raines Quote
tubaloth Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Do you not live in a country with Laws? You realize there is a law to not steal, kill, and a number of other things. Lets say there is some person, called the Police that inforce these laws. You still have your choice to choose to follow the Law or not, but you realize that breaking the law leads to danger (or punishment) keeping the law leads to safity and blessings. God is doing the same thing, is he not? I assume what ever country you live in is not in a dictatorship? Quote
kona0197 Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Posted December 23, 2008 You are correct. I am American. Quote
Kyra Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Forcing someone to make a choice is slavery. Or shall we say dictatorship.I must be a slave-driving dictator then, because I use this concept in the way I raise my children! When I give my 5 year old a chore to do and she complains about doing it, I tell her that she doesn't have to do it, but if she doesn't then she will have a punishment. Or at least there will be consequences for her actions. But if she does do it, then she'll be rewarded. I'm letting her choose which outcome she would prefer, just like Heavenly Father has done for us.There's no force involved. There will be consequences for our decisions and actions no matter what, we are free to choose whether we want them to be good or bad consequences. Quote
kona0197 Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Posted December 23, 2008 I guess I believe in a world of no consequences for any action when it comes to religion. Make your own fate. Quote
pam Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Kona you are totally changing your statement from a statement you made just recently on another thread. May I quote you? Maybe all these things I have said or believe are just a justification due to the fact I do not want to do what is asked of me and I enjoy being defiant but I know I am wrong and will have to answer for it later. Quote
kona0197 Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Posted December 23, 2008 No you may not quote me. As far as my statement in the other thread I have changed my mind. I will not join the Church until they bend to my situation. Quote
pam Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Too bad I already quoted you. And will never happen. Quote
kona0197 Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Posted December 23, 2008 (edited) Guess I will just ignore you then as it seems you always have to have the last word. :):) Edited December 23, 2008 by kona0197 Quote
gabelpa Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Kona, there's this church I encountered in Texas, perhaps you should move there and join their ranks. I can't remember the congregational name, I think it may have been the Free Will church. You used your Free Will to do whatever you darn well pleased, with no fear of consequence from God. In their beliefs,we were given Free Will to act as agents unto ourself,requiring no Repentance,as Jesus had already paid the price for all our Sin. Nothing was required of their membership other than to do as they wanted. Quote
applepansy Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 There is no such thing as "free" will or agency. . . Will or Agency meaning choice. We all have choices and there will always be consequences.Most religions believe in some form of agency. LDS believe in moral agency, even though we use the words free agency a lot. You can't find free agency anywhere in the scriptures. Free agency implies that there are no consequences for our actions. There are always consequences for our actions. If we act nice, most people will act nice back. If we act mean then there are consequences for that too.Agency: a thing through which power is exerted or an end is achieved (dictionary definition)We have power its called Choice. Having choice doesn't mean we are free of consequences. This is a principle. Priciples are fundamental, they don't change, but consequences and choices do.Kona, I understand your wish for things to always stay the same. There have been times in my life when I desperately wished for things to stay just like they were. But, it doesn't work that way. If you had gotten your wish 10 years ago, what would you be without today? Without change, without choice, we would all be stagnant.applepansy Quote
FunkyTown Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Forcing someone to make a choice is slavery. Or shall we say dictatorship.Herein lies the problem, Kona: Your own knowledge of what Free Will should be has been tainted by the zeitgeist (The spirit of the age).Let's look at a rock with no free will: A rock sits in the place where it's supposed to, unless something acts upon it. If someone picks it up and throws it, it will move precisely the speed imparted upon it until it is slowed down and comes to a halt somewhere else. It moves in precise harmony to laws that have been since the universe was created.Man, on the other hand, has the enviable position of being able to make a choice. Does this mean that he can choose to jump off a cliff and float off the ground like a soap bubble? No, because gravity still acts upon him. Can he choose to walk through flames without being burned? No, because laws that govern transference of energy still act upon him.The man with free will can still jump off the cliff, but he will crash to the ground below and die. He can walk through flames, but the flames will still burn him. Free will is the ability to decide your own actions, not the ability to decide the consequences of your actions. Now, for those crimes that are seemingly victimless, God has created laws that surprisingly set us free. We can use drugs that destroy our body, but we may become addicted and lose the very gift of free will we were given. We can choose to rebel against his teachings, but then we become petulant children who ignore the council of one who is much more intelligent than ourselves.This has been the pattern of man for millenia. Quote
Gwen Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 I guess I believe in a world of no consequences for any action when it comes to religion. Make your own fate.how do you make your own fate without consequences? because there are consequences we know where our actions will lead. we choose where we are going or what we will have when we choose the actions. agency allows you to do just what you want... make your own fate. how many ppl have gotten upset at lds about the works being part of salvation? isn't that what the works are doing, making your own fate? without consequences then i guess god will just randomly hand out eternal assignments without any basis whatsoever..... oh you drew the short straw you get eternal life, the rest of ya can get lost. sorry but i think i like the idea of consequences and having some say (through my actions) rather than an omnipotnet game of chance. Quote
jolee65 Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Wow, LOL its like watching a child refuse to eat his peas. You know the truth but you dont like what you hear, but that doesnt change the reality of the truth, except it or not. If you choose 'not' then rejoice in your decision. And the last I know the church was there for the ones that except it, bending to your situation isnt in the cards im sure, one less member what shall we do.....lol Quote
beefche Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 kona, do you believe in natural consequences? Such as gravity, laws of force (physical laws), etc.? Is it just that you do not think a Loving God will ever punish or allow bad things to happen to people? Quote
skalenfehl Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Let's pretend you are a ruler over a great many people. These people can not see you or talk to you but they believe in you.You tell them through someone - a prophet or such - that they have free will.So they are allowed to choose as long as they make the choice YOU want them to make.You punish them if they choose a choice that you didn't want them to choose.That makes no sense. They should be allowed to make any decision they want. You can't force people to choose the way YOU want things.If there is only the choice you want them to make there is no other choice therefore no TRUE free will.Get it now?My friend, the part of free will that you may not fully grasp is the choice to take the narrow path that leads to safety far beyond the horizon. You can never tell what's on the horizon until you walk your path, whatever path it is you choose. Once you reach your horizon, you find another, but your feet are fixed upon the path that you created of your free will from choices past and there is no escaping your current position. But you still have the choice to change your path to the new horizon. God in heaven, who is at the far end of the finish line has sent his messengers to encourage us to use our free will to choose the correct path and to avoid all other paths that lead to other destinations, which lead to unhappiness. Now you tell me with certainty that the free will that you exercise has caused you to come to your current state of the happiness that you desire. If not, then it still isn't too late to follow the man who has already blazed the true path to happiness and awaits us at the finish line far beyond the horizon. Sure you can choose other paths and it may seem like slavery (who enjoys being a slave because of poor choices?) or you can choose to follow the Lord's council, who has already walked the path and knows the way."I am the way." Isn't that what Christ has been trying to tell us for thousands of years? All we have to do is trust Him because He's been there and He waits for us every day, all day long. You just have to decide to change paths. It's really difficult at first, treacherous at times if we don't watch our footing but the path becomes easier and the scenery much more pleasant. I can tell you that those who do are happy. I am happy. Are you? Quote
pam Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Guess I will just ignore you then as it seems you always have to have the last word. :):) Never, ever ignore a moderator. There are consequences to that choice. Quote
Hemidakota Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Let's pretend you are a ruler over a great many people. These people can not see you or talk to you but they believe in you.You tell them through someone - a prophet or such - that they have free will.So they are allowed to choose as long as they make the choice YOU want them to make.You punish them if they choose a choice that you didn't want them to choose.That makes no sense. They should be allowed to make any decision they want. You can't force people to choose the way YOU want things.If there is only the choice you want them to make there is no other choice therefore no TRUE free will.Get it now?There is no FREE WILL. There is an eternal law in which all intelligences subscribe too, even GOD HIMSELF is not the author but an enforcer of the law. You will later learn why this is important to have these laws and it will point or trace back to this title - JESUS CHRIST. Quote
NeuroTypical Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Hi Kona,Thanks for starting this thread. Thought exercises are useful and helpful. I'm sorry there some people on this thread don't seem to get that, and figure hurling insults somehow is the way to go. But I also see people engaging you, please allow me to be one of them.So they are allowed to choose as long as they make the choice YOU want them to make.Let's think about this a minute. Are you saying they are not allowed to go against your wishes? Or are you saying you'll punish them if they do? Consider this for a moment, because they really are two different things. Example: I can choose to stand in place, or wander into freeway traffic. What happens to me in the road isn't a punishment - it's a consequence of my choice. Would you agree or disagree?You punish them if they choose a choice that you didn't want them to choose. That makes no sense. They should be allowed to make any decision they want.So let me get this straight. Free will (from where you're standing), is freedom from any undesirable consequense of your actions? If you can choose a course of action that results in any negative result at all, that means it's not true free will? Is that correct? Or are you saying that we should expect some negative consequences for some things, and nothing for other things?LM Quote
Hemidakota Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 Free Agency and Freedom - Dallin H. Oaks Quote
a-train Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 If there were no set consequences for specific actions, there could be no actions. -a-train Quote
BenRaines Posted December 23, 2008 Report Posted December 23, 2008 I always prefer to use the word Agency instead of Free Agency. I don't think I can find Free Agency anywhere in the scriptures but Agency maybe. I know that Prophets and Apostles have used the term Free Agency in talks but that is their agency to do so. :) Ben Raines Quote
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