Were Adam and Eve born?

[Vanhin]

Can you prove it?

Hemi, the scriptures prove it, including the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The missionaries teach it, and so do the prophets and apostles. Take the following quote by President Joseph Fielding Smith:

In section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which directed the Prophet Joseph Smith to organize the Church again in this dispensation, we have a revealed summary of some of the basic doctrines of salvation. As to Diety the revelation says: “… there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them.” (D&C 20:17.) ...

...God is our Father; he is the being in whose image man is created. He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s (D&C 130:22), and he is the literal and personal father of the spirits of all men. He is omnipotent and omniscient; he has all power and all wisdom; and his perfections consist in the possession of all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, all truth, and the fullness of all godly attributes. This the Prophet Joseph Smith taught in the Lectures on Faith. The Prophet also taught that if we are to have that perfect faith by which we can lay hold upon eternal life, we must believe in God as the possessor of the fullness of all these characteristics and attributes. I say also that he is an infinite and eternal being, and as an unchangeable being, he possesses these perfected powers and attributes from everlasting to everlasting, which means from eternity to eternity.

I am grateful that the knowledge of God and his laws has been restored in our day and that we who are members of the Church know he is a personal being and not, as some sectarians have said, “a congeries of laws floating like a fog in the universe.” I am grateful that we know he is our Father in heaven, the Father of our spirits, and that he ordained the laws whereby we can advance and progress until we become like him. And I am grateful that we know he is an infinite and eternal being who knows all things and has all power and whose progression consists not in gaining more knowledge or power, not in further perfecting his godly attributes, but in the increase and multiplying of his kingdoms. This also is what the Prophet taught. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Most Important Knowledge)

You have to deny the plain and simple understanding of words to come to the conclusion that God has at some point not been God.

"I say also that he is an infinite and eternal being, and as an unchangeable being, he possesses these perfected powers and attributes from everlasting to everlasting, which means from eternity to eternity."

Which means from eternity to eternity.

On this issue I agree with Dr. T -> "prove it". Use the scriptures, and not just the Bible, you are welcome to use all the Standard Works. They represent our binding doctrine, and according to the scriptures, God has always been God.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Can u prove that he wasn't HD?

Good come back...seeing that you are not a Latter-day Saint, my word versus your word.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi, the scriptures prove it, including the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The missionaries teach it, and so do the prophets and apostles. Take the following quote by President Joseph Fielding Smith:

In section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which directed the Prophet Joseph Smith to organize the Church again in this dispensation, we have a revealed summary of some of the basic doctrines of salvation. As to Diety the revelation says: “… there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them.” (D&C 20:17.) ...

...God is our Father; he is the being in whose image man is created. He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s (D&C 130:22), and he is the literal and personal father of the spirits of all men. He is omnipotent and omniscient; he has all power and all wisdom; and his perfections consist in the possession of all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, all truth, and the fullness of all godly attributes. This the Prophet Joseph Smith taught in the Lectures on Faith. The Prophet also taught that if we are to have that perfect faith by which we can lay hold upon eternal life, we must believe in God as the possessor of the fullness of all these characteristics and attributes. I say also that he is an infinite and eternal being, and as an unchangeable being, he possesses these perfected powers and attributes from everlasting to everlasting, which means from eternity to eternity.

I am grateful that the knowledge of God and his laws has been restored in our day and that we who are members of the Church know he is a personal being and not, as some sectarians have said, “a congeries of laws floating like a fog in the universe.” I am grateful that we know he is our Father in heaven, the Father of our spirits, and that he ordained the laws whereby we can advance and progress until we become like him. And I am grateful that we know he is an infinite and eternal being who knows all things and has all power and whose progression consists not in gaining more knowledge or power, not in further perfecting his godly attributes, but in the increase and multiplying of his kingdoms. This also is what the Prophet taught. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Most Important Knowledge)

You have to deny the plain and simple understanding of words to come to the conclusion that God has at some point not been God.

"I say also that he is an infinite and eternal being, and as an unchangeable being, he possesses these perfected powers and attributes from everlasting to everlasting, which means from eternity to eternity."

Which means from eternity to eternity.

On this issue I agree with Dr. T -> "prove it". Use the scriptures, and not just the Bible, you are welcome to use all the Standard Works. They represent our binding doctrine, and according to the scriptures, God has always been God.

Regards,

Vanhin

Noting that the scriptures are not complete and probably for a wiser purpose here that is not being stated, I would side with the prophets who learned it first hand by the voice of Joseph Smith vice speculating or assuming our own reading comprehension is the right answer.

Yes, GOD had a beginning as we do. That has been revealed and not speculation.

Infinity as elements and intelligence but not as a created man HE or we are. No matter how you can spell it out, the existence of humanity has a beginning. Alpha and Omega....

[Vanhin]

Noting that the scriptures are not complete and probably for a wiser purpose here that is not being stated, I would side with the prophets who learned it first hand by the voice of Joseph Smith vice speculating or assuming our own reading comprehension is the right answer.

Yes, GOD had a beginning as we do. That has been revealed and not speculation.

Infinity as elements and intelligence but not as a created man HE or we are. No matter how you can spell it out, the existence of humanity has a beginning. Alpha and Omega....

Right and I just quoted President Joseph Fielding Smith. Here I will quote the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., with this all too familiar quote.

First, you say:

Yes, GOD had a beginning as we do. That has been revealed and not speculation.

Infinity as elements and intelligence but not as a created man HE or we are. No matter how you can spell it out, the existence of humanity has a beginning. Alpha and Omega....

Joseph Smith said:

"… I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself." (LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation)

You say man has a beginning, and Joseph Smith says fools and learned and wise men (as they suppose) make such claims... Tell me Hemi, what is Joseph Smith saying then, if not what his words indicate? The spirit of man had no beginning!

Regards,

Vanhin

[Maxel]

Here's my two cents on this topic.

Just as the physical matter that constitutes our body has the property of eternal existence, so too does spiritual matter that makes up our spirits. D&C 131:7 states that

'[t]here is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes'.

Just as the elements constituting my body have not always been organized in their current form, so too has the elements constituting my spirit not always been organized in their current form. The elemental makeup of my spirit has had no beginning nor end, but the organization of them into what constitutes my own spirit began at a certain time, when Heavenly Father organized it- just as my earthly parents caused the formation of my spiritual body.

[Justice]

It's all interpretation.

To say "man did not have a beginning" he is saying the family of man had no beginning. But, each man is born of parents, and therefore has a beginning.

The life of man, or work of exalting man, has always existed. "Man" did not just come to be from nothing. It can't be. Man has always been here inhabiting the universe.

But, the individual man, you and I, had a beginning, as has every man... whether perfected or imperfect.

Read Joseph Smith's words with that understanding, TOGETHER with the other statements that God was once like man, and it all becomes clear.

[Justice]

Here's my two cents on this topic.

Just as the physical matter that constitutes our body has the property of eternal existence, so too does spiritual matter that makes up our spirits. D&C 131:7 states that

'[t]here is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes'.

Just as the elements constituting my body have not always been organized in their current form, so too has the elements constituting my spirit not always been organized in their current form. The elemental makeup of my spirit has had no beginning nor end, but the organization of them into what constitutes my own spirit began at a certain time, when Heavenly Father organized it- just as my earthly parents caused the formation of my spiritual body.

Exactly.

Just as the element that makes up our bodies has always existed, but we have not always been alive on this earth...

The intelligence that makes up our spirit bodies has always existed, but we were most assuredly born of Heavenly Parents.

The physical teaches us of the spiritual.

[Justice]

If it were not so then the promise of eternal life and exaltation, or eternal procreation, would be false and a lie.

If all men already exist, and there are no more to be born, then the Celestial Kingdom is no more glorious than any other kingdom. The promise of eternal life is for man and woman to be sealed together for the purpose of procreation and perfecting their children.

If men can not be created, or born, then all is void and empty.

[Hemidakota]

Right and I just quoted President Joseph Fielding Smith. Here I will quote the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., with this all too familiar quote.

First, you say:

Joseph Smith said:

"… I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself." (LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation)

You say man has a beginning, and Joseph Smith says fools and learned and wise men (as they suppose) make such claims... Tell me Hemi, what is Joseph Smith saying then, if not what his words indicate? The spirit of man had no beginning!

Regards,

Vanhin

Let us not spend time in speculating but asking what is truth from the source. Was it not President Snow [GOD was once man...]that made a remark that you gladly rejected in previous posts? Do you know he learned this directly from Joseph Smith? I guess we can pick and choose our own love of doctrinal points vice be as him, Joseph Smith, teaching what is truth.

As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.

"I felt this to be a sacred communication which I related to no one except my sister Eliza, until I reached England, when in a confidential, private conversation with President Brigham Young in Manchester, I related to him this extraordinary manifestation."

Soon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwood's home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophet's reply was:

"Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you."

Let us understand clearly that while Lorenzo Snow, through a revelation from God, was the author of the above couplet expression, the Lord had revealed this great truth to the Prophet and to Father Smith long before it was made known to Lorenzo Snow. In fact, it was the remarkable promise given to him in the Kirtland Temple, in 1836, by the Patriarch that first awakened the thought in his mind, and its expression in the frequently quoted couplet was not revealed to President Snow until the spring of 1840. We cannot emphasize the fact too strongly that this revealed truth impressed Lorenzo Snow more than perhaps all else; it sank so deeply into his soul that it became the inspiration of his life and gave him his broad vision of his own great future and the mighty mission and work of the Church.

Improvement Era, June 1919, p. 656.

Ugh...was Joseph Smith was the one that pointed it out Vanhin. There is no speculation but ignorance to what was stated and given as revelatory.

Again, same Joseph Smith who ebulliently pointed out Intelligences inhabit created spirit bodies. Not only that, what constitute a spirit here, INTELLIGENCE and a SPIRIT BODY. Both which are beyond GOD capacity. HE cannot create matter or intelligence but using them to form and fashion life.

Go back to that ring and see if there is a 'crack' vice saying we were human spirits forever. Eternal is an eternal round but man was not. Matter and intelligences are eternal round but man was not.

Instead of misquoting here, let us read it in entirety:

The teachings of the Prophet Joseph on these points were:

"Now, I ask all who hear me why the learned men who are preaching salvation, say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God, and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost; they account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. * * * You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; and they may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.

"I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject; I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead—namely, the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so; the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

"We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. How does it read in the Hebrew? (Refers to the old Bible.) It does not say in Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says: "God made man out of earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body." * * *

"I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is is logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits. * * *

[your ring statement...now read it again.]

"I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement."

Who was Joseph Smith speaking too? Not members of the church but those who profess to have knowledge of GOD that were making claims on a subject that had no idea. He again points out that Intelligence has no beginning, which is true.

Were we human form forever? No! It is already stated between Moses and Abraham, we were formed after the likeness of GOD. If that is the case Vanhin, what was the form prior to this creation?

I think I would stick with learning the creation and see its order of progression in determining how intelligence do progress from a lesser form to a more complex creation - MAN/WOMAN.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

It's all interpretation.

To say "man did not have a beginning" he is saying the family of man had no beginning. But, each man is born of parents, and therefore has a beginning.

The life of man, or work of exalting man, has always existed. "Man" did not just come to be from nothing. It can't be. Man has always been here inhabiting the universe.

But, the individual man, you and I, had a beginning, as has every man... whether perfected or imperfect.

Read Joseph Smith's words with that understanding, TOGETHER with the other statements that God was once like man, and it all becomes clear.

Thanks. This goes back to an earlier discussion where there is much disagreement over the same quote.

Usage of different terms within a same quote has many . I have to say, look at the audience this was attended for and see the keys of those terms used in describing that same term. Joseph Smith was not a great statesman but when moved upon by Spirit that was a different case. No different when Paul spoke by the Spirit vice Paul the person.

[Maya]

Just my 5 p worth... I did not read the whole thread... In this time when people are able to start life in a tube, rent a womb... I dont think it nessessarily menas that Adam and Eve were born in a traditional way in to the humanity.

[Hemidakota]

Yes...true but then what did President Young say?

Most in the church by-passed the most exciting story of man [not forgetting the Savior birth] within Genesis. There is a reason why it was stated more than once by two different individuals.

[mikbone]

Adam did have a belly button.

It is a beautiful story that is well hidden in the scriptures.

On the sixth day, the Lord and his wife traveled to this earth (I suppose from Kolob), with a specific duty in mind. In their current state they were in possession of exalted bodies of flesh and bone which do not create mortal bodies. Exalted bodies create spirit children.

As has been stated by Brigham Young the Lord charged his body with the coarse materials of this earth so that he could produce Adam... So how did he do it??

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until his system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of his children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. Discourses of Brigham Young P. 50

There were 2 special trees in the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil and the Tree of Life. There were both placed there for a specific purpose.

The Tree of KoG&E - changes immortal bodies into mortal beings

The Tree of Life - changes mortal beings into immortals

The Lord and his spouse partook of the Tree of KoG&E (the coarse material or Dust of the Earth) and became mortals, their bodies were changed from Flesh and Bone to Flesh and Blood.

They then produced Adam & Eve the same way that has always been and will ever be done.

Our forefather's Parents then partook of the Tree of Life and switched back to immortal beings. I think that at some point during the early childhood of Adam and Eve they were weened off of mortal mothers milk and began to partake of immortal food and thus changed their bodies from mortals to a paradisical state.

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory. Moses 6:59

Most well read LDS members know that prior to the fall that Adam and Eve's bodies were immortal and did not have blood. But the above scripture, revelation given by the Lord directly to Adam states that Adam's body was born of Water, Blood, and Spirit.

Adam was born a mortal without knowledge of good and evil. Early during his childhood his tabernacle was transfigured into an immortal state. Then came the fall.

The Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden so that God could change his mortal body back into an immortal.

Dont you find it interesting that Adam and Eve were commanded not to partake of the Tree of KoG&E? Yet when they did trangress and became mortals they were NOT commaned not to partake of the Tree of Life. God placed Cheribum and a flaming sword to guard the Tree of Life so that they COULD NOT partake of immortal in their sin. God wanted Adam to partake of the Tree of KoG&E.

Because He loves us.

Edited March 21, 2009 by mikbone

[Jim108]

The Word is clear. Genesis. Jim

[talisyn]

mikbone, that is an interesting theory

[Snow]

I'm a little new to LDS.net, but thought I would put this question out there. My question is: Were Adam and Eve born?

I was recently listening to a gospel talk by (I think) Vivian McConkie Adams, called Father Adam Mother Eve. In the talk Sister Adams states that Adam was born; she quotes Joseph F. Smith for support. Then she Quotes Brigham Young, something to the extent that if Adam were formed from a lump of clay he would be resurrected as a lump of clay.

I'm looking for the refferences she states. I think I might have found the quote from Joseph F. Smith. But I found it online, so I'm a little skeptical. The quotes are below.

If anyone has any info, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Homo sapiens (modern man) has been around for about 200,000 years. Adam and Eve (according to the Bible) were on the scene less than 10k years ago.

Why would man be around for hundreds of thousands of years, each parent giving birth to offspring, and then all the sudden God supposed form Adam out of clay?

[Faded]

The Word is clear. Genesis. Jim

Agreed.

For a Latter Day Saint, it's even clearer than that because we have the creation story told 3 times in the scriptures. Genesis, Moses and Abraham.

Genesis 1: 26-28

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:7, 21-25

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[21] And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

[25] And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Moses 1:26-28

26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Moses 2:7, 18-24

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

18 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make an help meet for him.

21 And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;

22 And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be done flesh.

Abraham 4:26-28

26 And the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.

28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Abraham 5:7, 14-18

7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

14 And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him.

15 And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;

16 And of the rib which the Gods had taken from man, formed they a woman, and brought her unto the man.

17 And Adam said: This was bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; now she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man;

18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be bone flesh.

And there you have it 3 times over.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

Eve was created from the rib taken from Adam.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

Eve was created from the rib taken from Adam.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

Eve was created from the rib taken from Adam.

Why speculate any further when we have not received further understanding?? If it appears in all three accounts the same way, why try to rewrite the whole matter??

[Guest tomk]

Agreed.

For a Latter Day Saint, it's even clearer than that because we have the creation story told 3 times in the scriptures. Genesis, Moses and Abraham.

...

...

And there you have it 3 times over.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

Eve was created from the rib taken from Adam.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

Eve was created from the rib taken from Adam.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

Eve was created from the rib taken from Adam.

Why speculate any further when we have not received further understanding?? If it appears in all three accounts the same way, why try to rewrite the whole matter??

Why speculate?

Because, well, it's fun.

Because it's hard for me to accept that Adam was made, literally, from a bunch of dirt, and Eve from his rib. I think these images are symbolic. Logically, Heavenly Father and Mother are the literal, physical parents of Adam and Eve (and of each of us!)

Because (in my opinion) speculation is a form of pondering. And pondering is one method of receiving personal revelation.

D&C 138: 1, 11

1 On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures;

• • •

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me,

and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

No, we don't receive revelation for the entire Church, as President Joseph F. Smith did in this instance, but the same KIND or TYPE of activity applies to every Saint, for their own edification.

I share what I feel are the answers I've received. Nobody has to agree with me.

These sorts of questions are not "investigator" type questions. They are not milk. They are meat. Nobody should start a topic like this or respond to it if they are not willing to speculate.

[mikbone]

Why speculate? We don't. We study, ponder and pray. The scriptures state that Adam was created from the dust of the earth. But this does not necessairly mean that adam was molded from clay.

The dust of the earth that was used to create adam was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God (Male and Female) partook of the fruit of the Tree of KoG&E and changed ("charged") their immortal bodies of flesh and bone into a bodies of flesh and blood. They then had Adam and Eve in the normal fashion.

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ or embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man. Joseph Fielding Smith, Man His Origin and Destiny, p. 354

We are the literal offspring of God. How many times is that stated in scripture? I'm gonna bet more than 3 times.

[Moksha]

Do you suppose the land of Nod (Cain's in-laws) was located on the plains of the Serengeti?

The Nodians having been around longer, perhaps had dispersed themselves to many of the continents by the time of this wedding, eh?

[WANDERER]

from dust we are made and dust we return: true: the essential building blocks of physical life...

women created from a rib: I have no idea about what technology would be required but it doesn't sound impossible...not that I think that we can explain it...it's rather lacking in detail for any such assumptions.

Prototypes of humanity...had to happen somewhere. Creation...unavoidably true : )....beliefs regarding creator or Creator is a matter of faith.

[mikbone]

I believe that the Adam's Rib - Creation of Eve scriptures describe a symbolic or figurative account that Adam and Eve are co-equals. As has been previously well explained earlier within this topic by other posters.

Although... If one was to create clone. It could be done with the cells that originate from the flat bones that produce blood. Pluripotential Stem Cells that are found within a rib could indeed be use create a clone. But WHY?

Finally It could refer to twins.

Prenat Diagn. 2008 Aug;28(8):759-63.

Monochorionic-diamniotic twins discordant in gender from a naturally conceived pregnancy through postzygotic sex chromosome loss in a 47,XXY zygote.

Zech NH, Wisser J, Natalucci G, Riegel M, Baumer A, Schinzel A.

Division of Obstetrics, Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University Hospital Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland.

OBJECTIVE: It is generally believed that monochorionic-diamniotic twin pregnancies result from one fertilized oocyte with both siblings having the same genotype and phenotype. In rare instances, due to somatic mutations or chromosome aberrations, the karyotypes and phenotypes of the two twins can differ. METHOD: We report cytogenetic, molecular genetic and clinical examinations in monochorionic-diamniotic twins discordant in gender. RESULTS: The monochorionic-diamniotic status of the twins was diagnosed by ultrasound and histologic examination of the placenta. Prenatal chromosome examination performed on amniocytes revealed a normal female karyotype in one and a 46,XX(26)/46,XY(3) karyotype in the other twin. Molecular examinations confirmed monozygosity despite discordant sex. Based on the cytogenetic and molecular results of lymphocytes and placental cells, the only explanation for gender discordance was that the conceptus originally had a 47,XXY chromosome complement. CONCLUSION: A 47,XXY zygote appears to have undergone a twinning process. A postzygotic loss of the X chromosome in some cells and the Y chromosome in other cells, either before or after twinning, resulted in 46,XX/46,XY mosaicism in both monozygotic (MZ) twins. The sex discordance of the MZ twins can be explained by different proportions of the 46,XX and 46,XY cell lines in the gonads and other tissues.

Although that seems a bit far fetched...

Edited March 22, 2009 by mikbone

[pam]

A bit far fetched because I didn't understand one thing in that. haha

[mikbone]

Sorry, was just trying to respond to Wandering's comments about the technology that would be required to create a woman from a rib.

1) No technology would be needed as the rib is a figurative term used to denote that Adam and Eve are equal. This is my belief by the way.

2) Eve could be a clone of Adam. This would have required God to have removed some of Adam's bone marrow (Doctors usually harvest bone marrow from the sternum or pelvis bones but a rib could also be used. Im an Orthopaedic Surgeon btw :) ) Anyway, after harvesting the bone marrow he would then have to isolate a pluripotential stem cell (young cell that contains and can express all the genetic material of the host). This stem cell then could be placed into an Ovum (Mother's unfertilized egg cell), and then implated into the woman's Uterus. Cloning of animals has already occurred using this technology. God of course could have easily done it, but WHY?

3) Adam and Eve could be identical twins. Identical twins occur when one fertilized egg divides into 2 separate eggs. So you could make the argument that God manipulated the very young embryo that was Adam and removed a portion of him (the rib) and made another embryo - Eve. In almost all cases identical twins are of the same gender. The above journal article explains that in a very rare case identical twins can actually be of different genders. Without a basic understanding in genetics its difficult to follow, but as the author explains it did occur and he presents the data of the genetic testing of the twins in the article.

God has much more knowledge then current scientists or doctors. He could have done all kinds of stuff to make Adam and Eve. But I think that our first Mortal Parents created Adam and Eve in the old fashioned way. They procreated and had two healthy children the boy was first named Adam. Their second child was a female, Eve.

Edited October 6, 2011 by mikbone
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[JohnnyRudick]

Moses 3:7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Moses 3:21-23 And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;

And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man.

And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.

I can't find anything to verify the quote of Joseph F Smith. I searched "Gospel Doctrine" by Joseph F. Smith and found nothing.

thedorman? Can you give us the references for the quotes you posted?

thank you,

applepansy

It never ceases to amaze me over the years how I hear from time to time statements made as if they were fact that cannot be backed up by Revelation.

Weather it be Creation or what ever.

Some will say, "well President So And So said. . . ."

Yeah, and did that statement ever get the Father's Blessing on it by it ending up in one of our Standard Works?

Er, no.

I thought not.

Let's just say for a min that you actually believed the Scriptures and would think on this subject.

If God were to create the image of a tree in the "flesh" (the flesh of a tree which was first spiritually created), would He create it with rings or without rings?

If you were to walk into the Garden of Eden on the day the tree was created (for we are told in all the Scriptures, not a one denies this that all herb was brought forth in a day) and you were to take a chain saw to that tree and cut it down would it have rings?

Seance we know the Scriptures are true, we can believe that all physical creation was created in the physical with a built in history.

I can therefore safely "believe" that man and woman weather in the pre-existence, this world or in the worlds to come, all have belly buttons;)

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have

eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance,

charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to

no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a

workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word

of truth.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they

will increase unto more ungodliness.

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 22, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
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