Disbelieving the Scriptures.

[Snow]

In another thread I am being chastised because I don't automatically accept as accurate scriptures that show God ordering murder (including murder of women and children(, rape, stealing, animal abuse, kidnapping, slavery etc.

I responded that everybody rejects some scripture and was then challenged to demonstrate it. So - here are some scriptures that some people typically reject:

1 Timothy 3:2... Bishops must be married and to one woman only.

1 Cor. 14: 34-35... Women are to remain silent at church. If they want to know something they are to talk to their husband, to whom they are subjected, at home.

1 Cor 11 7-14... A man is shamed if he has his head covered while praying

... A woman must cover her head while praying.

--- Woman was created FROM man and FOR the man and while man is the glory of God, the woman is the glory of the man.

--- A man with long hair is shamed.

Ephesians 5: 22-24... women are submit to husbands in everything.

Epheisans 6: 5-9... Slaves are to obey their masters the same as they are to obey Christ.

Hebrews 7: 1-3 Melchizedek had no beginning and no mother or father.

1 Cor 7 Celibacy is preferable to marriage.

Col 1:23 and Rom 10:17-18 The gospel was preach to every living creature on earth 2000 years ago.

Matt 26:52 Everyone who uses a sword will be killed by a sword.

1: Sam 21 Elhanan killed Goliath - or that David slew Goliath

Matthew 1 and/or Luke 3 - the genealogies of Christ.

To this list one could add:

-seemingly endless contradictions between various accounts in scripture, when only one could be true.

-the flood story as related in the Bible.

-the talking donkey

-etc

[bmy-]

My favorite..

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

D&C 89:12-13

[applepansy]

Snow, Your references come from the Bible. So as far as the Bible is concerned I'll refer you to Articles of Faith 1 (See #8).

I don't have the time this morning nor the inclination to address each reference you're made. But then I don't expect that's what you want. If you're interested in knowing more the Book of Mormon is a good place to start as well as Ensign articles about these subjects.

Also, As LDS members we believe in continuing revelation that has explained many contradictions in the Bible. (I believe the "flood story".)

I presonally don't reject any Scriptures in the Standard Works of the LDS Church. When I run across what seems to be contradictions I look further into the subject, I pray for enlightenment, or I ask people who I know have studied the scriptures in more depth than I have.

applepansy

[Jim108]

The Bible written by 66 authors over thousaands of years is the story of God walking with man, reedeming man and again walking with man. All of Gods glory and power goes far beyond it. When you try to mix Gods Glory and Grace with the laws of do's and don'ts and with human reasonings you get religion and not faith. God Bless, Jim

[Snow]

Snow, Your references come from the Bible. So as far as the Bible is concerned I'll refer you to Articles of Faith 1 (See #8).

The 8th Article of Faith says that we believe the Bible to be the word of God.

If you are implying that something was mistranslated - what? And what is the correct translation? Did Paul really promote marriage as better than celibacy?

Also, As LDS members we believe in continuing revelation that has explained many contradictions in the Bible. (I believe the "flood story".)

The flood story does not present contradictions - to my knowledge. It presents absurdities. I am not aware of any modern recognized revelation that resolve the problem.

I presonally don't reject any Scriptures in the Standard Works of the LDS Church. When I run across what seems to be contradictions I look further into the subject, I pray for enlightenment, or I ask people who I know have studied the scriptures in more depth than I have.

applepansy

Then can we safely assume that you cover your head while praying and keep silent at church? I bet not. I bet you'll reject that scripture today (Sunday).

[prospectmom]

I agree Jim .......

But think about another point would God walking with man stop and mans writings just stop with the bible???... The stories and scripture do not end and that is the difference between our christianity.

Peace

[prospectmom]

Snow I love you posts some really make me think but do you mabey overthink things... over analyze (sp) and look for errors .... Remember all of the writings wer from man who is never gonna be perfect.

I know my questions are small compared to you grand thoughts but please humor me.

[Jim108]

I agree Jim .......

But think about another point would God walking with man stop and mans writings just stop with the bible???... The stories and scripture do not end and that is the difference between our christianity.

Peace

It is Jesus living inside of you for every moment that now carries on. It is so personal and close. Jim

[prospectmom]

I agree.... I guess you do not see my point and that is ok I just thought you might..

Peace

[Snow]

My favorite..

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

D&C 89:12-13

Good one.

Most Mormons ignore that one completely - summer or winter.

[Snow]

Snow I love you posts some really make me think but do you mabey overthink things... over analyze (sp) and look for errors .... Remember all of the writings wer from man who is never gonna be perfect.

I know my questions are small compared to you grand thoughts but please humor me.

I dunno - I do spend a fair amount of time studying the scriptures - but for me, studying the scriptures by themselves is kind of like going to aerobics class or jogging - boring. If I want to get in shape, I have to find a sport that makes it interesting - like basketball, because it isn't simply training, it's competition and that is very motivating. Likewise, to study the scriptures, I look for a way to do it that makes it interesting - like finding stuff that other's ignore and then challenging them on it.

However, it doesn't necessarily take much time - I read the Bible three times on my mission and the contradictions and errors just leapt off the page.

[prospectmom]

ok so do you believe in the church even with all the errors of men????? just curious I always have questions about what I read but I never doubt the core of the church.... also I do not always appreciate some of the people but I know / believe not blindly the church is true.

[Snow]

The Bible written by 66 authors over thousaands of years is the story of God walking with man, reedeming man and again walking with man. All of Gods glory and power goes far beyond it. When you try to mix Gods Glory and Grace with the laws of do's and don'ts and with human reasonings you get religion and not faith. God Bless, Jim

Uh - no.

No one knows how many authors there were - for example, 13 or the 27 New Testament books are attributed to Paul - however it turns out that he only wrote 7 for certain, 3 are disputed, and the other 3 were forgeries by someone else in Paul's name.

As for the old testament, the traditional account has Moses writing the whole Pentateuch - first 5 books of the Bible. However, most scholars now understand that is incorrect. The Pentateuch probably has about 3 separate authors whose separate stories were woven together by a redactor.

As for the timing, the traditional accounting has biblical authorship spanning about 1390 years, not thousands. However, that dating is probably in error and the number is closer to about a 1000 years' span... except, the OT was a fluid document, being edited and redacted and probably didn't reach it's final form until about 450 BCE.

[Snow]

ok so do you believe in the church even with all the errors of men????? just curious I always have questions about what I read but I never doubt the core of the church.... also I do not always appreciate some of the people but I know / believe not blindly the church is true.

I absolutely do believe that the Church is true or ordained of God or a correct path to salvation.

My point of view allows me to look at any problem in Church history, or supposed revelation or scripture, both modernly or anciently, and acknowledge the difficulties and still accept the underlying validity of the gospel and Church. Other's with a more rigid view have to either ignore the difficulties or my some weird spin on them to try (badly) to explain them away and so reduce their cognitive dissonance.

On the other hand, when first confronted with the facts, many Mormons and general Christians can't effectively deal with the dissonance and simply de-convert.

[prospectmom]

Thank you for talking to me I have no problem with the church itself in fact it is one of the few things I have absolute belief in , but I to question things not as eloquetly (sp) as you but never the less I have my questions ....... I now can read your posts with a deeper understanding.....

Thank You

[Connie]

In another thread I am being chastised because I don't automatically accept as accurate scriptures that show God ordering murder (including murder of women and children(, rape, stealing, animal abuse, kidnapping, slavery etc.

I responded that everybody rejects some scripture and was then challenged to demonstrate it. So - here are some scriptures that some people typically reject:

1 Timothy 3:2... Bishops must be married and to one woman only.

1 Cor. 14: 34-35... Women are to remain silent at church. If they want to know something they are to talk to their husband, to whom they are subjected, at home.

1 Cor 11 7-14... A man is shamed if he has his head covered while praying

... A woman must cover her head while praying.

--- Woman was created FROM man and FOR the man and while man is the glory of God, the woman is the glory of the man.

--- A man with long hair is shamed.

Ephesians 5: 22-24... women are submit to husbands in everything.

Epheisans 6: 5-9... Slaves are to obey their masters the same as they are to obey Christ.

Hebrews 7: 1-3 Melchizedek had no beginning and no mother or father.

1 Cor 7 Celibacy is preferable to marriage.

Col 1:23 and Rom 10:17-18 The gospel was preach to every living creature on earth 2000 years ago.

Matt 26:52 Everyone who uses a sword will be killed by a sword.

1: Sam 21 Elhanan killed Goliath - or that David slew Goliath

Matthew 1 and/or Luke 3 - the genealogies of Christ.

To this list one could add:

-seemingly endless contradictions between various accounts in scripture, when only one could be true.

-the flood story as related in the Bible.

-the talking donkey

-etc

So you don't believe in cultural commandments or commandment based on circumstance.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Connie

[pam]

1 Cor. 14: 34-35... Women are to remain silent at church. If they want to know something they are to talk to their husband, to whom they are subjected, at home.

I'll use this one as an example. While this may have been applicable at the time it was written, we know it certainly isn't today. Woman speak in Church, they even speak at General Conference.

So because we aren't following this one scripture literally in the Bible, does that make our Church untrue? Nope

I get where Snow is coming from.

[Connie]

I dunno - I do spend a fair amount of time studying the scriptures - but for me, studying the scriptures by themselves is kind of like going to aerobics class or jogging - boring. If I want to get in shape, I have to find a sport that makes it interesting - like basketball, because it isn't simply training, it's competition and that is very motivating. Likewise, to study the scriptures, I look for a way to do it that makes it interesting - like finding stuff that other's ignore and then challenging them on it.

Wow, that's really sick! You might do well to read this fabulous talk by Pres. Ezra Taft Benson: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Beware of Pride

"Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)

Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled. (See Alma 38:12; 3 Ne. 12:30.)

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives. (See Hel. 12:6.) They pit their perceptions of truth against God’s great knowledge, their abilities versus God’s priesthood power, their accomplishments against His mighty works.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s.

Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)"

[prospectmom]

Connie I am not really sure that is what Snow is doing. It is ok to question etc. I really thing you are wrong this time......

[Moksha]

In another thread I am being chastised because I don't automatically accept as accurate scriptures that show God ordering murder (including murder of women and children, rape, stealing, animal abuse, kidnapping, slavery etc...).

You mean they were pretending to justify their own barbarity by claiming it was the will of their God? Do ya think?

My image of God is that He represents the best qualities I can imagine. That is a God I can truly worship. A God that is petulant, jealous and shows a willing acceptance and encouragement for all the horrendous acts that you described could merely be placated. Besides which, He would be on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

The two Great Commandments given by Jesus are that we love God and one another. That should be the true measure to use when trying to determine the character and will of the Divine.

:)

[prisonchaplain]

Most of the apparent contradictions and difficulties in the Bible have explanations. There are several books written on them. Chances are that the answers to these problems will prove satisfactory to those with confidence in the Bible's inerrancy, less so to those who believe the Bible is inspired, but not always accurate, and even less so to skeptics. Concerning women being silent in the church, the common explication is that women were literally yelling across the aisle to their husbands, during the sermons, asking them what the speaker said/meant etc. So, Paul was telling them to be silent, and keep order, not instituting a men-only teaching rule.

BTW, it is healthy and useful to rigorously study Scripture. When there seems to be a problem, far better to examine it than to just say, "God says it, I believe it, that settles it." Why? If nothing else, we may misunderstand what we have read, and it is our misunderstanding that is off-base, not the Scripture.

Ultimately, Scripture should glorify God. So, if God is presented as a mass-murderer, I would want to know if I understood the story right, and whether it was God or perhaps a false prophet order that killing. Also, could a true prophet have given a singular false prophesy? Lot's of healthy questions to ask. Far better to do so, then to always just assume that our understandings, no matter how contradictory, are the summation of God's Word.

Edited April 26, 2009 by prisonchaplain
elaboration

[Connie]

Connie I am not really sure that is what Snow is doing. It is ok to question etc. I really thing you are wrong this time......

Sure, it's okay to question. I don't believe I said it wasn't. But do you think it's right to read the scriptures with the sole purpose of “finding stuff that other's ignore and then challenging them on it.” My understanding was the purpose of scripture study was to edify yourself and obtain the Spirit, then use the teachings to edify others as well.

D&C 43:8

And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other

D&C 50:17-23

Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

If it be some other way it is not of God.

Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

He just said he only likes having an element of competition when it comes to scripture study, so therefore he “finds what others ignore and then challenges them on it” because this is the only way it is “interesting.” Thus he “pits his intellect against others.” I would personally have no problem with this if he were teaching truth, though the condescending tone of most of his posts can make them unpalatable even if they are true.

[Snow]

Wow, that's really sick!

Exactly how do you expect someone like me to respond when someone like you calls me sick?

Do you suppose that it holds some sort of significance?

Oh - but here's the kicker - you then quote scripture in an attempt to prove me wrong... which is exactly the "sickness" you accused me of. And then, if that hypocrisy wasn't enough, and by golly don't you think it ought to be, in the very same same post when you call me sick you say: "Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)"

... see what I mean about some like you trying to dump on me. It just doesn't work.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

You mean they were pretending to justify their own barbarity by claiming it was the will of their God? Do ya think?

My image of God is that He represents the best qualities I can imagine. That is a God I can truly worship. A God that is petulant, jealous and shows a willing acceptance and encouragement for all the horrendous acts that you described could merely be placated. Besides which, He would be on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

The two Great Commandments given by Jesus are that we love God and one another. That should be the true measure to use when trying to determine the character and will of the Divine.

:)

I agree wholeheartedly. In 1 Samuel 15 the author claims that God commanded Saul to avenge an incident that occurred 400 years earlier the book of Numbers. Specifically the author claims that God command that the men were to be slaughters, and the women, and the infants, and the sucklings, and the oxen and the sheep and the camels, and the donkeys.

Does that sound like a good and just and kind and loving God? Or does that sound like the author of Samuel was trying to justify Israelite barbarity?

[Snow]

Sure, it's okay to question. I don't believe I said it wasn't. But do you think it's right to read the scriptures with the sole purpose of “finding stuff that other's ignore and then challenging them on it.” My understanding was the purpose of scripture study was to edify yourself and obtain the Spirit, then use the teachings to edify others as well.

Don't you agree that dishonesty is not a desirable trait? Perhaps you don't but yet me challenge you anyway to try being honest. I never said that was my sole purpose - nor did I imply it. In fact it isn't my purpose at all. It is merely the means by which I am motivated the achieve the end of knowing and understanding scripture - as history and as gospel.