On my way out.

[PEON]

Ok. In order to save time and writing space, I will just put a link to the first few posts that I have made on the Topix LDS forum.

TOPIX POST

Now that you have had an hour or two to read through all of my ranting and raving, hopefully you will have a good idea of where my mind is right now. The fact that I am asking questions means that not all is lost, but I truly believe (as the title of this post suggests) that I am on my way out.

When I first became involved in the church, I felt wonderful about it. I was on cloud 9 and no matter what came my way I was still happy. I would say that the Church was responsible for that except for the fact that I became quite dissatisfied and dissapointed with the church while I was still there. I have read some of the posts here about people with tough choices and situations in their lives, and I get the same gut wrenching feeling when I read the replies that I do when i'm in church

I'm going to get married, but my future husband doesn't want to come back to church

LEAVE THE BUM AND WORRY ABOUT YOUR SOUL, DON'T CONCERN YOURSELF WITH HIS

I'm confused and I don't know what to do. This teaching doesn't seem right. This part of church isn't helping me

GO TO THE TEMPLE AND WALK AROUND A-BIT, THINK ABOUT THE TRUTH THAT HAS BEEN RESTORED BY JOSEPH SMITH

So.... I will probably feel the same response when I read the replies to this thread. I am lost, but the way my mind is working right now I can't help but honestly feel fine with that. With the questions and issues that I have about the way the church is, I'm not sure I want to be there, AND i'm not sure I don't want to be there either.

Now it's your turn. In 50 words or less give me THE answer, to life, the universe and everything. I already know the answer isn't 42 and the "temple" and "joseph smith" stuff isn't going to get me either.

Thanks,

Z

[talisyn]

If you don't think Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father side-by-side with Jesus Christ then the rest doesn't matter does it?

[PEON]

If you don't think Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father side-by-side with Jesus Christ then the rest doesn't matter does it?

Thanks, That was just the kind of uplifting response that I was hoping for.

[a-train]

A man's religion is between himself and his God. Let nothing come between you and God.

-a-train

[lestertheemt]

Any one can tell you what they believe.....

You alone have to find out what you believe.

If one wants to find the faults w/ any religion one will always find them. It is when one wants to know and seek out the truth will things make sense.

I don't claim to understand or to even know every thing about this gospel that I believe to be true. What I do know is enough for me. Do I have questions....we all do.....that is apart of life.

I wish you the best and hope you find the answers you seek.

Edited May 1, 2009 by lestertheemt

[prospectmom]

Ok life is hard ... you can't give up.... you have to make the decision that is right for you... just you not some cookie cutter answer that fits everybody........ You have to look at things from all sides... debate all outcomes in your own mind then you will see clearer..... For me the church is true... wow and saying that it dosen't help your problems magically easier...... mine either..... So I can't give you answers I can say I hope you don't give up on the church ... you are a child of God . We all agreed to come to this earth to accept the challenges we are faced with , we have to trust in God .. his infinate wisdom , he will not give us more than we can handle. We will find answers we just have to look and pray......... and most important believe...... blessings and peace to you

[TruthSeekerToo]

Life is about faith and God's plan for YOU. A-train said it-Don't let anyone/thing come between you and God. He'll guide you.

It's very hard to stop relying on other people to tell us what to think or how to worship. But it's the only way to have a relationship with God.

[PEON]

...I don't claim to understand or to even know every thing about this gospel that I believe to be true. What I do know is enough for me. Do I have questions....we all do.....that is apart of life.

I know that what people say here, there, wherever is coming from the heart. I know that everyone that told that woman to worry about her immortal soul instead of worrying about her future husband was saying what they thought was true. That's what scares me...

If that is what the church teaches... Really teaches, Love unconditionally until it gets hard, then just worry about yourself... I can't see it as being right. You have to realize that to someone like me (and many others that are in my position) that sort of response sounds rude and arrogant. Why not try to help the man that is still having doubts instead of saying leave him and find someone else?

It's like me. I want to do what's right, but I don't know what that is. I have prayed, read scriptures, tried going to church (that was a bust) and nothing seems to point me in the right direction. The first response I get when I'm asking for help...

Well... If you don't believe _____ then it doesn't really matter does it

Every time I talk to a "Mormon" from somewhere outside of my geographic area, I seem to get arrogance and feel belittled. Every time I talk to a "Mormon" from my geographic area, I seem to get compassion with no structure or foundation. How am I supposed to feel?

[john doe]

Unfortunately for your parameters, the answer IS Joseph Smith. If he wasn't a Prophet of God, if he didn't see God and Jesus Christ in vision, then the rest is moot.

[pam]

If you don't think Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father side-by-side with Jesus Christ then the rest doesn't matter does it?

Talisyn is one of the sweetest people on this site. I don't think she meant anything belittling or demeaning in what she said.

But believing whether Joseph Smith saw God with Jesus Christ is a foundation for what we as LDS believe and the foundation of the LDS Church. There is a need to believe that or many other principles of the gospel just don't fall into place. Believing that makes so many things fall into place.

So please don't take offense to what she said. I'm totally sure that is not the way it was intended.

[PEON]

Unfortunately for your parameters, the answer IS Joseph Smith. If he wasn't a Prophet of God, if he didn't see God and Jesus Christ in vision, then the rest is moot.

Yeah... I know, but if you read my other posts you would know I'm kinda tired of all that. The church seems to idolize the man. YES - what he did was EXTREMELY important, and it laid the foundation for what we have... BUT what we have is far more important that Joseph Smith.

So... we keep shouting Joseph Smith to show what he did, and by doing so that's all we talk about.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses. I'll check back tomorrow.

Z

[lusciouschaos]

t really matter does it

Every time I talk to a "Mormon" from somewhere outside of my geographic area, I seem to get arrogance and feel belittled. Every time I talk to a "Mormon" from my geographic area, I seem to get compassion with no structure or foundation. How am I supposed to feel?

I feel badly for you that you can't get the responses you seek. I also believe your communication is a bit manipulative. The real issue to believe or not, if sincere, which I believe you are, is best discovered between you and God. Living with the expectation that people will always treat you gently when you make provocative statements is unrealistic. Speaking personally--as hard as I am working to be more like Christ, I do not respond to generalizations that geography is the basis for compassion or other prejudicial statements.

I would urge you to turn to the scriptures and contemplative prayer. When I am far away from those things and turn to other imperfect beings for validation of my beliefs, I recognize that fear of a real connection with God is present.

I do wish you the best and also thank you for the reminder that I am worthy of God's love and the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

[spiritseeker]

Hey Peon!

I really am sorry that you are going through what you are going through. I wonder though what actually happened that made you lose faith. I mean somehow satan got into your thinking and little by little you have been pulled away. I mean maybe if you could find out the beginnings of this doubt you could find the solution.

I do believe though the way you are looking to us to give you the answer is not the proper way. A testimony is gotten by the individual.... I have read numerous post by Birth Lds( for lack of a better term) and each one has said they had to find their own testimony. You can't rely on your family or friends or fellow church members. ( I myself am a convert so I am taking their word on this. ) The only way you will find the answer you are looking for is to pray....

As for your statement about Joseph Smith that is a pivotal rock of our faith. And with your attitude I think you need to pray for a testimony of him again. He was not just some ordinary man. Of all the people on earth he was chosen by our Heavenly Father to restore the truth. I am going to make a statement here and I really don't know if it is church doctrine but , it is how I feel . So, please forgive me if I offend anyone...

" I believe from the bottom of my heart no one has done more for our salvation aside from Jesus himself than Joseph Smith. I know he holds a special place in heaven and in my heart!"

I am not trying to be anything but your friend. I believe you still have a testimony somewhere in there. Otherwise why would you still be here seeking our assistance? He loves you Peon!!! More than I think you realize......

[Guest Godless]

As a non-anti apostate of the LDS church, I know you're probably not looking for my input, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Doubt is a perfectly natural part of believing, regardless of what it is you believe in. If you never doubt, then how can you ever know for sure that your beliefs are correct? There are two end results from doubt. Either you change and/or restructure your beliefs (as I did), or you gain a further confirmation that your beliefs are correct. Either way, you're learning new things about yourself and your worldview, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I want to do what's right, but I don't know what that is. I have prayed, read scriptures, tried going to church (that was a bust) and nothing seems to point me in the right direction.

At some point, you're going to have to figure out on your own what the "right direction" is for you. Scripture study and prayer won't do you much good if you're not feeling what LDS refer to as "the Spirit". You have to decide what's best for yourself and what best fits your outlook on life and the world you live in. I know this position probably won't be very popular among the LDS here, but it seems that the traditional methods have failed, yes? If you can't bring yourself to "trust in the Lord", then all you have left is your own reasoning. Don't be afraid to use it.

And to beat a dead horse, yes, faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God is a very important aspect of the Mormon belief structure. In fact, it's by far the most important aspect of it. If he wasn't a prophet, then the church doesn't have much legitimacy, does it? I know your current doubts about the Church may not be centered on Smith, but if, as you say, you are on the path to leaving the Church, you will sooner or later have to face the question "Was Joseph Smith really a prophet?" Your final decision on whether or not to stay in the Church depends almost entirely on the answer to that one question. Any other doubts you have are redundant if you don't believe that he was a prophet.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Take from it what you will.

[prisonchaplain]

Now it's your turn. In 50 words or less give me THE answer, to life, the universe and everything. I already know the answer isn't 42 and the "temple" and "joseph smith" stuff isn't going to get me either.

Thanks,

Z

The above answers, which you find unfulfilling, grapple with WHERE to live out the Christian life. Perhaps your search is too far up the road? More basic, is, do you believe in the Christian life? More specifically--Jesus? Is He the Way, Truth and Life? Perhaps you need to wrestle with him before you wrestle with Joseph Smith's latter revelations.

Perhaps reading Matthew 5-7 (his Sermon on the Mount--which carries the core of Jesus' basic teachings) prayerfully? Because, if you believe in Jesus, He'll surely lead to the WHERE.

[FunkyTown]

I'm concerned, Peon. I have read what you had posted under 'Topix' and it makes perfect sense. You have the classic signs of someone about to go inactive, but I'd like you to consider my own experience with people with questions.

A few years ago, one of the people I home taught admitted to me of same sex attraction. He then went on to state that every talk he heard centered on Eternal Marriage.

I spoke to another inactive member who was concerned about the church's finance and stated that every talk he heard focused on Tithing and giving the church money.

I have talked with another inactive member who stated that every member they knew was just a Sunday Mormon who practiced on Sunday and then ignored everything and returned to backbiting and gossiping the moment they left the pulpit.

All of these, we can't argue with their experience. It's what they perceived. It's certainly not what the rest of the ward perceived.

I would challenge you to go to church with a pocket watch. I know that sounds silly, since you wouldn't be feeling the spirit when you do this, but go. Check the time when someone starts talking exclusively about the Temple and Joseph Smith. Check it the moment that they stop.

Sacrament meeting is an hour. How long was spent on that? 5-10 minutes? It could be you're placing undue emphasis on that. When you're done, go home and throw the pocketwatch out. You don't need it any more. Then, concentrate on learning and growing in your faith.

The other part of your Topix argument is telling: You had asked about the supernatural side of Joseph Smith and whether or not it's okay to jump in to Wicca now. That's hardly the balanced question, but it deserves an answer, but it's only one you can answer:

1) What are the sources you're using when deciding on what Joseph Smith was like? Are they trustworthy? What is the bias of the author?

2) Is any claim against Joseph worse than the claims made against other Prophets? Is he a bigger sinner than Moses, who murdered an Egyptian (Though the bible never says God told him to). Is he worse than Jonah, who tried to defy God by fleeing from him when he was told to preach repentence? What about the apostles? Are the claims worse than denying Christ?

If the answer to #2 is 'What I'm reading is not worse than what the prophets and apostles of old did', then the question of what he did was meaningless. At that point, the -only- important questions is "Was he a prophet?"

Only you can answer that.

[sensibility]

Having read your posts, I can understand how those responses to the marriage thread could make you uncomfortable. But nobody was saying 'Run for the hills and leave him to the wolves!' Marrying someone isn't the only way to love them. It's fully possible to teach and serve and lift someone without marrying them. The Church absolutely believes in serving and loving others. We go on self-funded years-long missions to teach othes, we donate fast offerings, donate to the humanitarian fund and the perpetual education fund, we offer long hours of service as home teachers, visiting teachers, Relief Society leaders, Sunday School teachers, Primary and youth leaders, bishoprics, stake leaders, and on and on and on. As you're a member of nearly a decade, I'm sure you know this.

The heart of the Gospel isn't Joseph Smith or the temple -- and it's not even service and compassion to others. The heart of the Gospel is Christ. If your faith is feeling shaky, it's probably time to exam the foundation of your testimony. If it isn't Christ, then you need to rebuild on the only sure foundation.

And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

--Helaman 5:12

Start with Christ. He is the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Joseph Smith and the temple don't matter if you haven't recognised Christ as the Son of God and your personal Saviour. Once you do understand the significance of Christ's Atonement for sin, you'll look at the Church differently -- and you'll be able to forgive your fellow Church members for not celebrating Christmas and Easter the way you'd hoped, or for focussing unduly on Joseph Smith and the temple, or for going to Applebee's after Church. You'll be able to forgive Joseph for sometimes doing or saying things that were incorrect or just plain weird. The whole world looks different when you realise that Christ bore the punishment for every sin you encounter, out of love for the sinner.

Christ is the answer, always. Best of luck.

[rameumptom]

I believe the Church is not perfect. We have few core doctrines, and many policies and ideas/beliefs that are possibly changeable.

That said, the issue comes down to a few questions one must answer:

1. Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

2. Do you believe that God guides us through living prophets and apostles today?

3. What are you willing to give up for God, if He were to give you His answer?

The young rich man went to Jesus and asked him what he needed to do to obtain eternal life. Jesus told him to first keep Moses' commandments, which the young man said he had done since his youth. And Jesus loved him. Yet, Jesus noted the man lacked one thing: to sell all he had, give it to the poor, and follow Jesus. The young man walked away mournfully, because he had many riches.

What riches are you (or I) holding onto that could keep you from following God? The issue with the young woman is, she wasn't married yet to the young man and so no marriage was being placed at risk. She was told to pray over it. She was told what the statistics are, on the chances of him becoming LDS later. She was told to talk to her bishop. While a few encouraged her not to do it, the reality is, she must make up her own mind. What risks does she wish to take. She had mentioned desiring a temple marriage. Guess what? Can't have that with a non-LDS spouse. She would have to decide how much of the riches she now has in her life she is willing to give up to follow God. There's nothing cold-blooded about that. It is a matter of level of obedience and faith. Does she have the faith that God would provide a better spouse for her down the road if she were to wait for a temple marriage? If she doesn't, is she willing to accept a lesser level of glory in the next life for not following God all the way?

And this applies to you, as well. Stay in the Church or don't stay in the Church. Your choice. You want opinions? You'll get opinions. But it really all comes down to you and God. You cannot blame others for your choice. We aren't setting the rules, we're just doing our best to understand and follow them ourselves. I don't always agree with things done in the Church, but that is not the issue for me. The questions are: Is Jesus the Christ? Is Joseph Smith a prophet of God? How much am I willing to give up in order to follow God?

Each of these is one-on-one between God and me. You can share your thoughts on it, but it all comes down to my choice. And I am not going to blame others for being imperfect or giving what I consider poor advice. I am going to find my answers and follow them as best I can. Otherwise, I have no will-power, no reason, no ability to decide for myself, and I perceive myself as a victim (which I am not in reality).

So choose. Stay and enjoy the blessings of the gospel. Or go and enjoy the pleasures of this world. Just don't blame your choices on us.

[talisyn]

Thanks, That was just the kind of uplifting response that I was hoping for.

Well, it makes me happy to think of it

[talisyn]

Talisyn is one of the sweetest people on this site. I don't think she meant anything belittling or demeaning in what she said.

But believing whether Joseph Smith saw God with Jesus Christ is a foundation for what we as LDS believe and the foundation of the LDS Church. There is a need to believe that or many other principles of the gospel just don't fall into place. Believing that makes so many things fall into place.

So please don't take offense to what she said. I'm totally sure that is not the way it was intended.

TY Pam, I totally didn't mean it to be belittling! In retrospect I might have said a few more words...It was simply bare-bones, the very foundation of being a Mormon.

Peon, when we are feeling empty inside, like the answers no longer fit, that is the perfect time to check out a few things. Time to check for any cracks in the foundation of your belief, clean out the gutters, maybe repaint the kitchen. Do you believe in God? Do you believe Christ did what He did all those years ago? Do you believe God speaks to man even today? Do you believe He can speak to you?

Do you want to believe again what you once held dear and sacred?

My advice is to start with the most-read scripture in the LDS world, 1st Nephi chapter 1. Then go one to chapter 2. Then 3. It doesn't have to be all at once, maybe just 10 minutes a day. I wish you well, and hope this helps.

[PEON]

As a non-anti apostate of the LDS church, I know you're probably not looking for my input, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Doubt is a perfectly natural part of believing, regardless of what it is you believe in. If you never doubt, then how can you ever know for sure that your beliefs are correct? There are two end results from doubt. Either you change and/or restructure your beliefs (as I did), or you gain a further confirmation that your beliefs are correct. Either way, you're learning new things about yourself and your worldview, and there's nothing wrong with that.

And to beat a dead horse, yes, faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God is a very important aspect of the Mormon belief structure. In fact, it's by far the most important aspect of it. If he wasn't a prophet, then the church doesn't have much legitimacy, does it? I know your current doubts about the Church may not be centered on Smith, but if, as you say, you are on the path to leaving the Church, you will sooner or later have to face the question "Was Joseph Smith really a prophet?" Your final decision on whether or not to stay in the Church depends almost entirely on the answer to that one question. Any other doubts you have are redundant if you don't believe that he was a prophet.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Take from it what you will.

Thanks, I find it interesting that your reply settled with me so sincerely. If I am reading correctly, you are not a man of faith, yet your answer speaks volumes about the faith that I need (and have lost). To be clear, you haven't given me a miraculous answer to life, the universe and everything (42 :}) but your perspective might be a little of what I needed.

It seems that those with faith have such a strong testimony of their faith, that they often forget (or never knew) how those without it see the world. Often, the "Here it is, Take it or leave it" approach is seen as very harsh and a bit uppity. I know that isn't the intent, and that their answers come from the heart, but it still feels cold in a way. I have never understood that either - Faith should, by definition, equal love and compassion. Understanding and a desire to help those that are lost, and yet for people like me it feels more like "dusting the sand from their feet" than "sitting down with the tax collectors"

My questions are not answered. I have a LOOOOOONG way to go, but I wanted to say thank you for your sensere response to someone that really needed a kind word and a road sign. Odd that it should come from the Athiest, but then again, God works in mysterious ways.

[PEON]

I'm concerned, Peon. I have read what you had posted under 'Topix' and it makes perfect sense. You have the classic signs of someone about to go inactive, but I'd like you to consider my own experience with people with questions.

A few years ago, one of the people I home taught admitted to me of same sex attraction. He then went on to state that every talk he heard centered on Eternal Marriage.

I spoke to another inactive member who was concerned about the church's finance and stated that every talk he heard focused on Tithing and giving the church money.

I have talked with another inactive member who stated that every member they knew was just a Sunday Mormon who practiced on Sunday and then ignored everything and returned to backbiting and gossiping the moment they left the pulpit.

All of these, we can't argue with their experience. It's what they perceived. It's certainly not what the rest of the ward perceived.

Interesting perspective on some of my problems.

I am a convert to the church but my wife is not. Her ex-husband was also a member and they were sealed in the temple. Later on in their marriage he became abusive and their civil marriage ended in divorce. He is now inactive, spiteful and extremely selfish. He has stated that he doesn't want the temple marriage dissolved and we haven't been able to work that one out with the authorities. So... Perhaps every time I hear about the temple it makes me sick on some level because of this.

However that's not the only thing. Sometimes I hear something from an outsider about Joseph Smith treasure hunting, or the mountain meadows massacre, or the black guy that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to before they weren't allowed to have the priesthood and my immediate reaction is "That's not true, why are you making up lies?" Then I will do research and find out that even though the church refutes the spin that the anti crown puts on these things, a great many of them are true, and they are never talked about.

One isolated issue isn't a huge problem for me, but lots of them are. Someone posted (here or topix, can't remember) that the church doesn't focus on the past but only on the present and future. I for one happen to hold the Bible as not only scripture, but as historical text. It tells us things that happened in the past, warns us about reacting in the wrong way, and teaches us a different way of doing things.

We learn about things that our spiritual leaders and prophet's have done wrong. Abraham not taking God's word about a son and trying to find another way himself, Christ saying if there was any way to take the cup from Him, The denial of Christ after his arrest, etc... There are no positive spins on the information, there are just facts and proof that God's plan is the right plan. Every dispensation covered under the scriptures shows Truth and Error openly... Yet under this dispensation the church doesn't do it.

I absolutely despise that fact. If we don't know our past then we are doomed to repeat it. If the churches take on the mountain meadows massacre is correct then it wasn't the leadership that was at fault, it was some of the membership... and yet the membership at large is never taught about this tragedy and the lessons that were learned from it. Sure many know it happend, but not everyone... It's a part of church history that isn't taught.

When you put all of this together, my perceptions that have been built from personal experience, coupled with what I call "political history" then yes... my faith in the church itself is shaken. I know the argument that if Joseph Smith is a prophet then the rest must be true. Now I am faced with the exact oppisite argument though... If all of this stuff is wrong then how could Joseph Smith have been a prophet and how could the Church be led by Christ? Even if you remove my personal perceptions from the argument (which is hard for me to do since they are MY perceptions) you are still left with some things that just don't make sence to me.

[beefche]

So we can't answer "42" "temple" or "joseph smith". Any other restrictions? I ask that because I just don't know what you're looking for. It sounds to me that you're in a "eh" stage--I don't care if I go to church and believe and I don't care if I don't go to church or believe.

Honestly, nothing anyone can say can truly help you. Sure, people can say things that may make you think, laugh, cry, rage, whatever. But, really it's your decision.

Sometimes when I get sick of churchy stuff (whether it's the people, the rigidness of church, whatever), I remind myself that I made a committment. I made a decision long ago that this is the church for me. So, I'm not leaving. I feel blessed that I also have had some experiences that helped me to really believe (and I'll even use the word "know" despite some people's scoffing) that this is the Lord's church. During my "eh" moments, I remind myself that I'm committed and sometimes I even have to remind myself that I really do believe it.

I hope you find whatever it is you're seeking. But to summarize life, existence, whatever in 50 words or less as an answer to your dilemma...well, I'm just not sure that's possible.

[PEON]

You could answer 42 if you wanted... But that just leads to me having to find out what the question is. Now that I think of it... That's probably what I need to do anyway. Figure out what my question really is and then focus on finding the answer.

Yeah....... I know.......... everybody has already told me what the question is

Sometimes I just like to vent. Thanks for letting me do it!

[Tamrajh]

I know I'm probably too late to take part in this discussion but I'm going to try anyway.

I've been in a similar situation. The only thing I can tell you is that you have to find out for yourself what's true and what's not. You can't ask someone else and have them give you your answers. You can pray your heart out, but until you really open up your heart and listen with your soul, you're not going to hear anything. If you've already decided what's right, then do it. And it sounds to me like you have.

We've been taught to love everyone. You're right. I don't think we should ever give up on anyone. I'm living proof of how far down someone can go, which is pretty far down, before they finally glimpse what the truth really is. And I'm not saying your guy is down, that's just been my experience.

Good luck and God bless.