Have You Been Saved?

[Jim108]

In another thread one of you were kind enough to post a link to Elder Dallin H. Oaks comments on being saved. It compares the traditional Christian line of thought with the LDS thought. I have a question for the LDS members. About on third of the way down, Elder Oaks says this, "....And what is "all we can do"? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end." My question is this, do you keep the commandments?

Here is the URL link LDS.org - Ensign Article - Have You Been Saved?

[john doe]

As many as I can, Jim.

[Palerider]

Yes....I have.....

Again....since you like to read...here is a link for you...

Mormons and Salvation: Faith, Grace, and Works - "Mormon" Doctrine - What Does It Take to Be Saved?

[jameslentz]

as a Christian, whether LDS or not, it is our direction from Jesus Christ to keep the commandments...repentance and the Atonement of the Savior that makes repentance possible gives us a way to cleanse ourselves after our weakness creates a situation that we sin again. The continuous cycle of repentance, striving to keep the commandments and sometimes failure to do so resulting in sin is why the Atonement is so powerful and impressive. The Atonement is meant for our use as often and as liberally as necessary during this life to continue to strive for perfection.

So asking any Christian if they keep the commandments is like asking a mother if they keep their children safe....they both try everyday.

[Guest queries]

I just wanted to comment on being saved. I never used to understand what Christians were talking about when they raved about being saved, or ask you point blank if you have been. Now I think I do know. I think it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a moment in time where you have met him and know of His love for you and His complete forgiveness. It's a life changing thing, having your heart purged and purified by Him. I suppose like any relationship it could be abused and neglected, but I can't imagine doing that - I only want to love Him, follow Him, and keep His commandments all the days of my life (here's the tie in to the current thread on keeping the commandments). From my experience, you can obey the law to the fullest, and that's good and completely necessary, but if you don't have that personal relationship with the LORD, you are missing out in a huge way. I would guess that honorable, faithful, obedient people who don't get that relationship in this life will for sure get it in the next.

Of course that's just my short life experience and I have nothing to back it up.

[prisonchaplain]

We traditional Christians talk of "being saved," and criticize the LDS doctrine for appearing to offer too much uncertainty about our status with God. For example, can you really know this side of the veil if we are currently saved? On the other hand, those of us from the Arminian branch believe it is possible to lose our salvation. How would that happen? Teachings range from pretty much LDS teaching (failure to obey the commands, live righteously, etc.--you sometimes hear of people getting saved anew almost weekly) to an almost once saved always saved (well we know we can lose our salvation, but it would require intentional repeated rejection of the Holy Spirit--and don't forget that God will chase us into the pits of hell to draw us back!).

So, an interesting question might be--once converted, how hard do you reckon it is to endure to the end?

Edited May 2, 2009 by prisonchaplain
clean up

[Jim108]

Yes....I have.....

Again....since you like to read...here is a link for you...

Mormons and Salvation: Faith, Grace, and Works - "Mormon" Doctrine - What Does It Take to Be Saved?

I have never met anyone who has been able to obey the commandments. Do you really mean that or do you mean that you try your best to obey them. I don't think I can go a week without some kind of violation. Maybe, your view on what it is to obey is different than mine. For example, when I watch TV and a beautiful girl is on, BOOM, I am guilty of lusting ( I think this one is the hardest for men, but women do it too.) When I get mad at a fellow driver on the road, BOOM, I am guilty of killing him in my thoughts. I have a hard time keeping Jesus first in my thoughts at all times and I work on the sabath and I do that and this, Guilty I am. Do any of you have better success? I try, but I fail. ...and I repent.

[skippy740]

The fact that a negative/bad/sinful thought entered into your mind is NOT a sin. This is normal and part of the human experience.

Letting yourself dwell on it IS.

Acting on it is.

As an old LDS saying goes:

"If you don't look once, you're not a man. If you look twice... you're not a missionary."

Should we have disciplined thoughts? Yes - inasmuch as we can control them. We can't always control what we think, but we can control what we DO with that thought.

I hope this helps some?

[skippy740]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Think About What You Are Thinking About

[Justice]

Jim, it is impossible to be as devoted and dedicated to Christ as we should be. A Book of Momron prophet, King Benjamin, taught us this:

Mosiah 2:

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

Even if we dedicated our lives to Christ and served Him with all our might, mind, and strength, the reward He offers is far greater than anything we are worthy of.

[havejoy]

I obey the commandments as much as I can. Having said that I will also tell you that I understand the commandments better and in more depth as time goes by. I used to think keeping the Sabbath holy meant attending Church. Later I realized it also meant not going to stores or working unless I really had to. Now I realize it also means spending my time and my thoughts on my Heavenly Father and Christ and studying the scriptures and spending time with my family. By next year I hope to have more understanding of this and all the commandments.

If you were to ask me if I ever willingly and knowingly break a commandment I could say no.

[Palerider]

I have never met anyone who has been able to obey the commandments. Do you really mean that or do you mean that you try your best to obey them. I don't think I can go a week without some kind of violation. Maybe, your view on what it is to obey is different than mine. For example, when I watch TV and a beautiful girl is on, BOOM, I am guilty of lusting ( I think this one is the hardest for men, but women do it too.) When I get mad at a fellow driver on the road, BOOM, I am guilty of killing him in my thoughts. I have a hard time keeping Jesus first in my thoughts at all times and I work on the sabath and I do that and this, Guilty I am. Do any of you have better success? I try, but I fail. ...and I repent.

I answered the question you started your thread with...are you saved.....now i will answer your question about commandments....I think I do a pretty good job at obeying them.....I am not perfect....I give it my best day in and out to obey them... Edited May 3, 2009 by Palerider

[Moksha]

--and don't forget that God will chase us into the pits of hell to draw us back!).

Even so far as Newark, New Jersey, eh? He must really love us.

:)

[Jim108]

The fact that a negative/bad/sinful thought entered into your mind is NOT a sin. This is normal and part of the human experience.

Letting yourself dwell on it IS.

Acting on it is.

As an old LDS saying goes:

"If you don't look once, you're not a man. If you look twice... you're not a missionary."

Should we have disciplined thoughts? Yes - inasmuch as we can control them. We can't always control what we think, but we can control what we DO with that thought.

I hope this helps some?

Skippy, I disagree, thoughts can be sin. In Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court". Also Matthew 5:28 "but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart".

When you are angry with another, you kill them in your thoughts. I think in prior posts you and I are guilty of this. It is not OK to take one look at a woman as long as it is just one look. You see, I do not think any of us are capable of living up to the Law. It is just not possible. We need Jesus. Without Him we are lost.

Have you ever told a lie?

Have you been angry?

Have you used foul language?

Do you covet?

Have you ever stolen anything?

Do you have thoughts of lust?

Do you masturbate? (a normal sexual function for men and women)

Do you keep the sabbath? If your car gets stuck in the mud would you get it out?

If your answer is yes to any of the above, as it is for me, then you have not kept the commandments.

I do not think anyone (except Jesus) can live by these rules 100%. But, we try, we need to try, but we fail, we repent, we try again and so on.....

[john doe]

Skippy, I disagree, thoughts can be sin. In Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court". Also Matthew 5:28 "but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart".

When you are angry with another, you kill them in your thoughts. I think in prior posts you and I are guilty of this. It is not OK to take one look at a woman as long as it is just one look. You see, I do not think any of us are capable of living up to the Law. It is just not possible. We need Jesus. Without Him we are lost.

The key is in the scripture you quoted. If you look on a woman, even if you comment that she is good-looking, or even if you think she has a nice body, that is not a sin. The sin is when you look at her and actually lust after her, imagining yourself having sexual relations with her. That is where the sin comes in. That is committing adultery with your heart.

Maybe when you are angry at someone you wish them dead, but I'm not built that way. When I am angry at someone I just want them to make things right. I don't wish them dead, so I am not killing them in my mind. Maybe you're built different than me though, and actually want me dead, I don't know, but if you do, then you are sinning. I just want you to repent when you wrong me, not to kill you. Have a good day, Jim.

[Connie]

I've read the opinion by many on this site that one can't possibly keep all the commandments, we all pick and choose. I agree that in and of ourselves, in "depending upon our own strength" we cannot possibly keep all the commandments all the time. However, that way of thinking is forgetting one very important aspect of the gospel, namely, the Grace of Christ. Through this grace we gain a strength greater than our own and are able to do ALL things. As Ammon said in the Book of Mormon (Alma 26:12), "Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things".

Here is what one of my favorite church publications says about Grace: LDS.org - Family Table of Contents - True to the Faith

“Grace,” True to the Faith, (2004),77–78

The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to the divine help and strength we receive through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter taught that we should “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18).

Salvation by Grace

Because of the Fall, everyone will experience temporal death. Through grace, made available by the Savior’s atoning sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and receive immortality (see 2 Nephi 9:6–13). But resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God’s presence, and we need His grace to purify and perfect us “after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

The phrase “after all we can do” teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fulness of the Lord’s grace and be made worthy to dwell with Him. The Lord has commanded us to obey His gospel, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end (see John 3:3–5; 3 Nephi 27:16–20; Articles of Faith 1:3–4). The prophet Moroni wrote of the grace we receive as we come unto the Savior and obey His teachings:

“Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot” (Moroni 10:32–33).

Receiving Grace throughout Your Life

In addition to needing grace for your ultimate salvation, you need this enabling power every day of your life. As you draw near to your Heavenly Father in diligence, humility, and meekness, He will uplift and strengthen you through His grace (see Proverbs 3:34; 1 Peter 5:5; D&C 88:78; 106:7–8). Reliance upon His grace enables you to progress and grow in righteousness. Jesus Himself “received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness” (D&C 93:13). Grace enables you to help build God’s kingdom, a service you cannot give through your strength or means alone (see John 15:5; Philippians 4:13; Hebrews 12:28; Jacob 4:6–7).

If you ever become discouraged or feel too weak to continue living the gospel, remember the strength you can receive through the enabling power of grace. You can find comfort and assurance in these words of the Lord: “My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27).

Additional references: Acts 15:11; Romans 5:2; 2 Nephi 10:24; 11:5

[skippy740]

Skippy, I disagree, thoughts can be sin. In Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court". Also Matthew 5:28 "but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart".

When you are angry with another, you kill them in your thoughts. I think in prior posts you and I are guilty of this. It is not OK to take one look at a woman as long as it is just one look. You see, I do not think any of us are capable of living up to the Law. It is just not possible. We need Jesus. Without Him we are lost.

Have you ever told a lie?

Have you been angry?

Have you used foul language?

Do you covet?

Have you ever stolen anything?

Do you have thoughts of lust?

Do you masturbate? (a normal sexual function for men and women)

Do you keep the sabbath? If your car gets stuck in the mud would you get it out?

If your answer is yes to any of the above, as it is for me, then you have not kept the commandments.

I do not think anyone (except Jesus) can live by these rules 100%. But, we try, we need to try, but we fail, we repent, we try again and so on.....

I agree that because of the flesh, we are unable to keep the law 100%.

As far as thoughts being a sin... it depends on how quickly they stay in your mind and how often you "entertain" those thoughts. Unfortunately I have a very carnal mind. I have bad thoughts that come into it - NOT because I want these thoughts and NOT because I indulge in activities that encourage these thoughts. They just pop in. I quickly analyze these thoughts and dismiss them as they are NOT the type of thing that I want to indulge in, participate in or act out in any way. Those kinds of thoughts disgust me and I treat the thought as such.

As for why they keep entering into my mind? I don't know, but it's all about what you DO about what the thought - do you indulge in it? Fantasize about it? Or do you quickly dismiss it for naught?

But it also depends on how we are interpreting the law.

Let's look at your list of questions, one by one:

Have you ever told a lie? Intentionally telling falsehoods is a lie. This is also a pre-meditated sin - one that you will need to make up your story and keep to it to "keep it believeable". Here you have the thought before the actual telling of the falsehood.

Have you been angry? The LORD has been angry. Is the emotion a sin? I would say no. Being angry is not a sin. It's what you DO about it that could lead to sin. Beating your spouse or kids is the sin, not the fact that you're angry.

It is possible to be righteously angry.

Have you used foul language? The use of foul language is used by someone to impress another. When was the last time you were impressed by the use of foul language?

Do you covet? Again, looking for an easy way to satisfy your lusts is not a good thing. Is it "I wouldn't mind having one of those?" or is it "I gotta get that from them somehow!" One will help fuel ambition and self-development while the other encourages laziness and stealing from those who have earned that particular earthly treasure. (Granted, we don't know if someone is a white collar criminal like Madoff, but we are not the law enforcement to sieze their property.)

Have you ever stolen anything? Being a thief is not being a disciple of Christ.

Do you have thoughts of lust? Being lustful in my heart is not a good thing and can/will lead to inappropriate thoughts and actions.

Do you masturbate? (a normal sexual function for men and women) This is dwelling on thoughts and taking an immoral action to "satisfy" those thoughts - and while the world considers it "normal", the LORD does not. LDS.org - Youth Chapter Detail - Sexual Purity 

Do you keep the sabbath? If your car gets stuck in the mud would you get it out? Would I get my car out of the mud on the Sabbath? Yes, or I wouldn't be able to get to church. Remember that it was under Jewish law that required that you couldn't do certain things on the Sabbath, take so many steps, etc.

D&C 58:26

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Sometimes it's more of the Spirit of the Law than the Letter of the Law.

We are all on a path towards greater spiritual enlightenment. We're all starting from different points along that path. So, while others may say that I'm not following all the commandments (not necessarily a personal judgement in me, but I'll use me as an example) am I progressing? Am I praying? Am I trying? Am I reading my scriptures? Do I recognize that I'm imperfect but that I strive to be better than I am?

I am thankful that I have the opportunity to do my own self-evaluation while in this life and to make the corrections with the Savior's help to help me be a better person, and rely on Christ and His infinite atonement to help me make up in areas that I lack before I am judged by The Father and represented by Christ.

You and I have been guilty of our going back and forth - and I will humbly ask for your forgiveness as I hadn't been acting as I should - particularly in this online community.

[Jim108]

I guess my point with starting this post is this: when Elder Oaks made comment of keeping the commandments he was not literal. None of us can keep them. We all need Jesus to make us worthy. My take is this. When I was saved and received the spirit I knew that a road was ahead of me that includes works. Works that I am glad to do. Faith without works is dead and our works are an extension of our faith. We are saved by grace and our works are a direct indication of our faith. This makes sense to me.

[bytor2112]

Here is an interesting read.......

[StallionMcBeastly]

I guess my point with starting this post is this: when Elder Oaks made comment of keeping the commandments he was not literal. None of us can keep them. We all need Jesus to make us worthy. My take is this. When I was saved and received the spirit I knew that a road was ahead of me that includes works. Works that I am glad to do. Faith without works is dead and our works are an extension of our faith. We are saved by grace and our works are a direct indication of our faith. This makes sense to me.

If I understand you correctly, this is exactly what LDS believe.

Yes, Elder Oaks doesn't expect us to never fail at keeping a commandment. We all fail, so does Elder Oaks. The point is to never stop trying or give up on doing your best to keep the commandments.

Good post, Jim.

[Snow]

In another thread one of you were kind enough to post a link to Elder Dallin H. Oaks comments on being saved. It compares the traditional Christian line of thought with the LDS thought. I have a question for the LDS members. About on third of the way down, Elder Oaks says this, "....And what is "all we can do"? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end." My question is this, do you keep the commandments?

Here is the URL link LDS.org - Ensign Article - Have You Been Saved?

No Jim, the answer is no - we do not. We are all part of a secret cabal of commandment-breakers. We seek to break as many commandments as we possibly can and get points, that count towards the purchase of electronic consumer goods, every time we break one.

Occasionally we make an error or are compelled somehow to keep a commandment but when that happens, we secret break two commandments to balance out the ledger.

Great question Jim. Reminds me of the verse: "Be ye therefore perfect." Are you perfect Jim?

[Snow]

I guess my point with starting this post is this: when Elder Oaks made comment of keeping the commandments he was not literal.

I've read the article before. Exactly which part isn't literal?

[pam]

The only person I can think of that NEVER broke a commandment would be Christ. The rest of us are striving to be like Him. Therefore Jim, you know as well as I that everyone else has broken commandments and will continue to break commandments. We aren't perfect. But we live each day trying hard not to..to be more like Christ.

[pam]

I've read the article before. Exactly which part isn't literal?

I'd like to know that as well so I have an understanding of where you are coming from and your thoughts and know the best way to answer that.

[Jim108]

No Jim, the answer is no - we do not. We are all part of a secret cabal of commandment-breakers. We seek to break as many commandments as we possibly can and get points, that count towards the purchase of electronic consumer goods, every time we break one.

Occasionally we make an error or are compelled somehow to keep a commandment but when that happens, we secret break two commandments to balance out the ledger.

Great question Jim. Reminds me of the verse: "Be ye therefore perfect." Are you perfect Jim?

"Are you perfect Jim?"

No Snow, I am wretched.