The Day of Judgment

[prisonchaplain]

A belief that all the Abrahamic religions share is in the Day of Judgment. That day when all will stand before God and be judged for our lives. I'm not so concerned, in this string, with how God will judge us, but rather the more basic question: Does God have the right to judge us? It seems obvious to believers, but society, at its core, disagrees. Ultimately, each should judge their own lives for themselves, based on their own understanding of right and wrong. I've even heard hints of that notion at this site. The idea that each of us chooses our kingdom, and that we would not be happy in any other--even if it were a higher kingdom.

So, what say ye? Will God judge us? Will everyone be satisfied and pleased with where they end up in eternity? God may be just, but is he ultimately simply a matchmaker, placing everyone in the eternal place that will best fulfill their wants and character?

When homosexuals wax angry against your church, when feminists of a certain stripe, and pro-choicers of all stripes, condemn pro-lifers as heartless, unfeeling, and dense (you don't understand!!!), at one level what I hear is, "No one--not even God--can judge me and my situation." Of course the church is not God. Christian are not God. But, who then speaks for God? IMHO, many believe that no one does--except for self. God speaks through my own cravings, desires, wants, and my own sense of what is best for me.

This is all different from agnosticism, which says God cannot be known. Instead we have an intentionality here--I will not know God, unless that God will speak through my own lusts. THOUGHTS?

[Traveler]

A belief that all the Abrahamic religions share is in the Day of Judgment. That day when all will stand before God and be judged for our lives. I'm not so concerned, in this string, with how God will judge us, but rather the more basic question: Does God have the right to judge us? It seems obvious to believers, but society, at its core, disagrees. Ultimately, each should judge their own lives for themselves, based on their own understanding of right and wrong. I've even heard hints of that notion at this site. The idea that each of us chooses our kingdom, and that we would not be happy in any other--even if it were a higher kingdom.

So, what say ye? Will God judge us? Will everyone be satisfied and pleased with where they end up in eternity? God may be just, but is he ultimately simply a matchmaker, placing everyone in the eternal place that will best fulfill their wants and character?

When homosexuals wax angry against your church, when feminists of a certain stripe, and pro-choicers of all stripes, condemn pro-lifers as heartless, unfeeling, and dense (you don't understand!!!), at one level what I hear is, "No one--not even God--can judge me and my situation." Of course the church is not God. Christian are not God. But, who then speaks for God? IMHO, many believe that no one does--except for self. God speaks through my own cravings, desires, wants, and my own sense of what is best for me.

This is all different from agnosticism, which says God cannot be known. Instead we have an intentionality here--I will not know God, unless that God will speak through my own lusts. THOUGHTS?

As each soul stands before G-d to make an accounting of their desires and accomplishments I believe there will be two influences outside of us and G-d the Father that will also participate in the proceedings. These two influences are an advocate that will help us achieve our desires and an accuser that will attempt to condemn us and keep us from obtaining anything of eternal value.

I believe Jesus Christ is our advocate and that Satan is our accuser. In the proceedings that we call the judgment – I believe is the accumulation of what has been taking place. Not just during our mortal life but also within the time after we die. I believe we will not come to what is called the final judgment until we have finished our preparation to do so.

Some points:

1. As a person desires in their heart so are they. Nothing will be hidden – we are what we are.

2. From what I understand in scripture everyone will acknowledge Jesus and beg for his mercy. Every knee will bow and ever tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Acknowledging Christ is a good thing but it is not what will separate the saint from the unrepentant sinner. But acknowledging Christ will save us from the wages of sin which is death. If this is our definition of being saved then all are saved.

3. Being born of the spirit or “one” with G-d is a different matter. G-d extends this opportunity to all freely but it must be earned within one’s heart and established with all their might mind and strength. It must be earned by disciplining our thoughts and actions. It is done by discipleship and learning from the master by following him. I do not believe everyone will want to discipline themselves and be one with the “Creator”. I have encountered many good religious peoples that have no desire to be so much like the creator that they are one with him. I believe G-d has a wonderful and good place (but not in continuing in creation) that fulfills the desire of their heart. Some people do not believe it is possible or want to be like G-d in all g-dly ways.

4. I do not believe G-d will force any evil upon anyone that does not what to be a part of it. I believe Satan will – with delight.

My thoughts.

The Traveler

[mikbone]

Ultimately, each should judge their own lives for themselves

I'm gonna have to agree.

When it comes to the time of judgement. I believe that there will be no confusion bewteen either judge or the person being judged as to what type of reward is deserved.

I have imagined that we will be completely aware of the rules and regulations concerning the judgement. Then that we would review our life (circumstances, actions, and thoughts) in the presence of our Judge. And we would be aware that the Judge understands our thoughts and feelings.

If this is the scenario, it will be obvious as to which reward we deserve. We will not have to be told.

Just thinking about this inspires me to be a better person.

[the Ogre]

I can't speak of the Day of Judgement . . . I haven't been there yet. And PC, you know the LDS perspective quite well, so why rehash that with you. I suppose I might go to what is important for us to form strategies for: the Moment of Judgement.

I'm a Chr-stian and bring with it the LDS experience. It is the experience I have to operate from and I do so happily. The Gospel of J-sus Chr-st is the gospel I love. This however is suspect by many. Too many who share the same faith are ideologically lazy or ideologically immature. This makes life difficult when people accept though as spoon-fed to them because to may I am then guilty by association.

So when accused of bigotry by religiously desolate (think typical agnostics or atheists -- note: this does not apply to every non-religious person) one has to just take it. Right? Well, maybe. It depends.

I do not want to isolate or loose my friends who live outside the religious experience, but when they say things like "not even your G-d can judge me" all I can say is: "I don't know, I haven't heard from H-m personally on this. We generally only talk about family."

This is a little different than most responses, but it works fairly well.

The moment when one gets lumped into the stew of religious-nincompoops who try to speak for all faithful people is the moment I let them know the accuser has no knowledge of my experience or who I am. Flag-waving nimrodery has nothing to do with who I am or with my faith.

I stand with the ensign on the mountains, nothing else matters. Right? Well, it depends on the relationship I have with the religiously disgruntled and what I want to do about it.

[Just_A_Guy]

Under the LDS view, an individual who attains exaltation is given enormous powers. I would venture to guess that God has a responsibility not to give those powers to someone who can't be trusted with them--regardless of what that person thinks he or she "deserves".

If an individual is permitted to "judge" himself/herself, I think it could only be because God trusts the individual to make the exact type of judgment that He Himself would make.

[NeuroTypical]

Does God have the right to judge us?

Oh, humans have argued back and forth about what "rights" mean for so long, I forget if we all decided on a definition.

At the end of the day, if you're in charge, you have the power to judge and impose judgements, wether you have the right to or not.

I'm more concerned with the measuring stick I will be judged against. If it's something arbitrary, if we're held to account for things we never understood or felt, well, that would tend to be a tad unrighteous in my book.

LDS folks figure nonbelievers will be judged against the portion of righteous laws they had access to in this life. That bodes well for Mother Theresa, it bodes less well for serial killers.

We're also big on the notion that God understands us perfectly, and will apply that understanding when applying his perfect blend of justice and mercy. He knows why sexually abused kids often go on to abuse others. He knows the heart of the person who commits suicide - in a way that nobody on earth ever will.

As He truly is our loving father, who wants what is best for us, He knows when a beatin' will do us good, and when a hug will do us good.

LM

[Jim108]

Those of us who are saved will not be judged as your name will be in the book of life.

[Moksha]

Instead we have an intentionality here--I will not know God, unless that God will speak through my own lusts.

THOUGHTS?

If we have many lusts, will that increase the frequency of our communication with God?

[Justice]

This is a very good discussion.

There are scriptures that say Christ will judge, or that the 12 Apostles will judge the tribes of Israel, and there are others that make it sould like we will judge ourselves.

I believe all are true.

I believe there is more to the "restoration" spoken of in the Book of Mormon, in regard to judgement, than most people realize.

However, to answer PC's question, I think the people who feel no one can judge them, not even God, are speaking from an incorrect view of God. These people don't see "time," or this mortal existence of the earth, as a "recording device" that will record all things that happened, both actions and thoughts. There will be no lies at judgememnt, no deception, no fraud, not even a hint of misunderstanding. You will be allowed every opportunity to look at the events and comment, like looking into the sun and trying to convince someone it does not exist. Eventually every knee will bend and every back will bow, and all will recognize the truth and justice of God.

We tend to project on others. Those who will lie a little believe others will lie a little. God does not lie. All things will be made known, and when all things are made known in truth, it will not matter who judges us. Truth will prevail, and eventually we will be able to determine with a surety what eternity we are worthy of and will be most happy in.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Justice

[Traveler]

Those of us who are saved will not be judged as your name will be in the book of life.

So you believe that being judged of G-d is a bad thing? Even a merciful G-d?

The Traveler

[DigitalShadow]

If there is a God and a day of judgment, I think people would be judged on how close they were to what they believed in their heart to be right (which could be different from what they justified to themselves was right at the time). I don't think it would be fair or logical to judge everyone based on the strict standards of any one religion though because no matter what religion you look at it, there are hundred of millions of people who have not even heard of it. It seems rather arbitrary to judge people based on rules they've never heard of and I can't imagine a fair or loving God doing that, and certainly not a God I would want to worship if that were the case.

[JohnnyRudick]

Those of us who are saved will not be judged as your name will be in the book of life.

I have to agree with you . . .

But. . .

You knew there had to be one huh?

Well, Jim.

There are at least a few different Judgments.

The one you are thinking of, Yes. Many of the "Saved" will forgo that Judgment.

But if you are "Saved" (as I have pointed out so many times before) you have a responsibility to grow in the Gospel, to be a good steward of the grace that "Saved" you.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

We are "Saved" through Grace through our Faith in Jesus Christ. The Lord's Christ as opposed to the one that shall come and is even now at work in darkness among us.

But to the Christ of our Lord, we have a duty to grow in the Salvation He has secured for us.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye

are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than

that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for

the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;

and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built

thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall

suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,

and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him

shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye

are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among

you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that

he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness

with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own

craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of

the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all

things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the

world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come;

all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

This is not referring to the general "Last Day" Judgment.

This is the judgement that every "Saved" person must abide.

"What did you do with the Gift I gave you?"

"Did you squander it or bury it in the ground or did you invest and make it grow?"

"Did you work and increase It's value?"

"Are you a wise and faithful servant or are you a lazy and slothful servant?"

The wise and faithful will be doing some of the judging at the Last one.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge

the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye

unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how

much more things that pertain to this life?

Bro. Rudick

[the Ogre]

Those of us who are saved will not be judged as your name will be in the book of life.

"Hail and Proclaim I'm Saved. I'm saved, pass the Bud, a Doobie, and while you're up turn on the Play Boy channel, and babe, when's your husband gettin' home we don't have a lot of time . . . errr, whatever."

*** As per request: an edit. I find it very suspect when members of other faiths come to this website and do nothing but demean the well understood LDS Doctrine of Salvation (I of course love it when preaching comes via string theory -- I have a New Testament in anyway you want it so please give references and then make an argument, don't belittle through patronization as if I haven't read the scriptures).

I love what is being said in Corinthians and know well their cousins in Ephesians, I have been involved in Interfaith forums for years (where, BTW, I do not preach or belittle or tear down the faith of others) and so know the argument quite well. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree and should be left at that.

. . . I don't think that's the kind of person Jim is at all . . .

Really, then why did he post something in such ill-informed taste. It was a deliberate swipe at what millions in the world believe. What my mother believes, my grandmother, my sisters, my children, and even the people I love who are living a non-LDS life -- if he does not want to come across as offensive, he ought to work a little harder at it. If he can do nothing but bring hate to the table, then he deserves what he got.

YES, it is by grace by which I will be saved (as well as being meek and mild . . . I'm neither of those obviously), but what is wrong with doing a few things along the way: think of the parable of the penny.

What bugs me then is when some apologist is telling me to behave . . . yeah, whatever dude.

Edited May 5, 2009 by the Ogre

[Justice]

It's definately true, that some come to just disrupt. However, I try not to lump everyone of other faiths together in that same pot until they identify themselves as such.

If you haven't been following, Jim has been having productive dialog in many discussions. Even though he doesn't agree with many of the things we do, He has been trying. I just felt it was unfair to accuse him of something he hasn't shown himself to be. He made a simple statement of belief. Instead of demeaning him, show him where he is wrong, if you believe him to be wrong.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Justice

[prisonchaplain]

I'm more concerned with the measuring stick I will be judged against. If it's something arbitrary, if we're held to account for things we never understood or felt, well, that would tend to be a tad unrighteous in my book.

If I'm reading you right, you do presume that we will be judged, and not by ourselves. You lay out what you believe is a righteous rule. BUT, if you don't get to judge yourself...if God is indeed our judge, then how can I turn around and declare his measuring stick unrighteous? Not that you are doing so--but can we even have a say so in what the standards are? Are we not left to discern just what HIS measuring stick is?

[prisonchaplain]

Those of us who are saved will not be judged as your name will be in the book of life.

IMHO, the redeemed will be judged--not to determine heaven or hell, but rather to see what we've made of the gifts God's given us.

[Jim108]

So you believe that being judged of G-d is a bad thing? Even a merciful G-d?

The Traveler

I never said anything was bad. Where did that come from. I just believe Jesus, he said believe in him and be saved. I am saved. Look, either you believe it or not. I am saved because Jesus said so.

[JohnnyRudick]

I never said anything was bad. Where did that come from. I just believe Jesus, he said believe in him and be saved. I am saved. Look, either you believe it or not. I am saved because Jesus said so.

OK, I believe you.

Now that you are saved, "Saved" to do what?

I know if you were to die on the very day you got "Saved", you would continue on in your "Saved" condition even in death.

But the question still remains.

Saved to do what?

Now that you are Saved, . . .

Bro. Rudick

[Traveler]

I never said anything was bad. Where did that come from. I just believe Jesus, he said believe in him and be saved. I am saved. Look, either you believe it or not. I am saved because Jesus said so.

Is there anyone that he said he would not save? I believe the scriptures tell us that every knee will bow and every tongue confess (believe in Jesus). See Philippians 2:8-11

I do not mind anyone announcing with glee that they are saved but if they assume G-d loves them more than someone else or intends to do something for them that he will not do for others (at least one other) then I am curious why they believe such a thing. If you know his commandments should not it be expected that you keep his commandments at least better than someone that does not know the commandments? Did he not also tell you to keep his commandments? Have you received that suggestion as well as the saved one?

What I am trying to understand is why you feel compelled to pronounce that you are saved? Does being saved to you have anything to do with keeping his commandments? This is a point many hold to in doctrine and I just do not understand – why would someone think that confessing Jesus to be more important than keeping his commandments. I have always believed the two are two parts of the same thing. Therefore to declare one is saved to me is the same as saying “I am an example of how to keep his commandments”.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

I never said anything was bad. Where did that come from. I just believe Jesus, he said believe in him and be saved. I am saved. Look, either you believe it or not. I am saved because Jesus said so.

I'm supposed to be nice this time, so here we go:

In Romans 10. 13 we find evidence for what you believe. I want to point out that it is Paul who is speaking here. Is Paul wrong? I do not think so.

If you believe every phrase and turn of punctuation in the New Testament to be the exact Word of G-d, then that is fine to think it was Chr-st who said it. The Old Testament has record of this as well. My favorite example is Isa. 52. 7.

I think where we divide is the LDS belief that being 'saved' is only the beginning. A good start. Yes, it is through grace that we are saved, but there is more to do other than simply hail and proclaim.

Why? Modern revelation. We believe in modern prophets that guide us. I have no problem with anyone who thinks we are wrong. I do think it is mocking when someone comes to an obvious LDS site and shoves it down our throats, however -- think the fine art and science of trollmongery. Ignorant trollery bothers me a lot.

I am not some of these others who will try to convince you otherwise. Most people who post the stuff you are in the way you are are looking for a fight. I am not interested in convincing you of anything. Believe what you will and stay ignorant, you'll be happier.

J-sus Chr-st is my L-rd and S-vior. It is only through H-m that anyone can be saved and reach exaltaion. If you are one who thinks we Latter-day Saints are heading straight to hell for believing differently when no single other Chr-stian denomination is capable of agreement on anything, then have at you.

[Justice]

There is a very lot implied in the comment "I am saved."

I would point it out, but I think others have started it off well.

Jim, you have to understand that we come from a different belief system. The Book of Mormon is invaluable for understanding doctrine such as this. Without it, I have no idea what I would believe.

The best I can say is I hope His atonement will be applied to me and I will inherit His kingdom. He told me what is expected of me in order to be called a son of God. All I can do is the best I can and hope my sincerity is enough.

From one point of view, I think the belief that "I am saved" can be dangerous. If you think you don't have to believe in Him tomorrow, or that you don't need Him tomorrow, or that you can't fall back to sin tomorrow, then one might stop trying to do good.

[pam]

Hey let's back off of Jim a bit here. While we may not agree (as LDS) with everything he has to say...I have found him to be respectful of what we have to say. He has already said in another thread that he doesn't totally agree with everything LDS believe but he has been respectful.

[the Ogre]

. . . Does God have the right to judge us? It seems obvious to believers, but society, at its core, disagrees . . .

Piers Anthony in his book On a Pale Horse shows us an interesting scene. Death takes the soul of a person and weighs it. Some souls go up and some go down and others dissipate (if I remember correctly).

This is interesting. One because it is death who does the judging and too, provides a destination for those who do not believe in G-d (dissipation); Thanatos not G-d. The second because the book was quite popular in a secular world even if it is in the fantasy genre. As a fantasy character, Thanatos must use magic to make this judgement.

Still, does anyone have the right to judge another of anything? You work in the prison system so the answer for the government is 'yes'. What about others: I don't think we can stop them. Everyone is judged by others. First impressions?

Do I have the right to judge others according to the tenants of my faith? According to secular morality, 'no'. I have been told again and again that religion has no place in the academy. Eventually, I want to be one of those fools who teach freshman and sophomore English Composition. Even if I cannot judge someone based on their religion as a teacher, I have to recognize it is an important part of personal experience. Religion is a huge part of Western Civilization. Everyone, even the non-theistic, is touched by it, affected by, molded by it. It is a core part of human experience. In the secular world, my faith must be a hidden factor in how decisions are made, but this does not mean I can escape it. In fact, when I write, I have to work hard to remove religious advocacy even if I am discussing religion. When Thanatos made his judgments, he brought his humanity with him, his experience, and his faith and except for non-human magic he could not judge accurately.

One of the problems is the impossibility of objectivity. No one alive is truly objective. I am not. I have loads of opinions and do not mind giving them. Everyone is the same. Everyone acts based on their experience, education, and beliefs. One of the counter-balances in the legal system for this lack of objectivity is the non-human law and a system of legal ethics. When crimes are committed, a decision must be made to determine if the action fits the parameters of the law. Even within the laws narrow view, humanity invades with its biases and interpretations must be given. Still, why does the law work? Because it is not human. This denial of humanity is what makes Thanatos' spell work. Humans are incapable of judging objectivity. Humans and our structures are the worst judges because we must use our very subjective-humanity to survive, to live, to interact with others. We can not escape our humanity or its consequences and as such make bad judges.

Many people believe that because churches are filled by people, they are the creations of people. This means, for them, G-d is the creation of society and as such is suspect. If, as is evidenced by Evangelical belief, my G-d is not the same G-d they worship, then I am not qualified to make any determination about how an Evangelical lives and acts. If I do not believe in a god of any sort, then how can any religious person be trusted at all? This is true because G-d, as believed by all under the Abrahamic tradition, is so hard to understand. I have studied the Nicene Creed and taken classes on it and have come to conclusion that not even the professors understood it. This is the same for RAMBAM's thirteen articles of faith. If the nature of G-d is not easily understood, the how can the religious be trusted. Thanatos had an advantage according to Anthony, he knew G-d. He knew H-m and had a sort of interaction with H-m making it easier to understand H-m. Of course, Thanatos got to know Satan a lot better, but that in itself provides information about G-d.

People make poor judges because of our mere existence, experience, and weakness. Religions can not be trusted because G-d as understood is abstract, mysterious, and simply incomprehensible. If religions do not understand their deity, how can they be trusted. IF mercurial people trust religions that can not define their core beliefs, then no religious person should be put in any position to decide anything. This is reinforced by religion's poor performance through the ages regarding individual rights and other offenses.

Burned often by religion, secular-society does not trust anything produced by it or by those associated with it. In some things, religion is just too dangerous for society and as such can not be trusted.

I then have to wonder what the effect would be if religion through the ages had always stuck by G-d. What if G-d were not some incomprehensible cloud outside space and time, isolated? What if G-d were personally accessible? Thanatos used magic as inhuman as the law and his relationship with an accessible G-d who is a person that can be spoken to to judge the dead. If religions had the same advantages, then I think religions could be trusted, but as it is now they can not and with good reason.

Personally, in the last days, G-d will judge us. We will be there to help and H- will help us understand the why of all judgments in the way only a loving, personal, accessible G-d can. Only a perfected person will be capable of true objectivity and as such it is G-d who will do this. Will H- be assisted? I think so.

Until then, in the view of secular-society, religions who have only used G-d as an excuse for tyranny do not have the right to judge. G-d, as a creation of religion according to the same secular-society, does not have the right to judge anything.

Edited May 6, 2009 by the Ogre

[JohnnyRudick]

Hey let's back off of Jim a bit here. While we may not agree (as LDS) with everything he has to say...I have found him to be respectful of what we have to say. He has already said in another thread that he doesn't totally agree with everything LDS believe but he has been respectful.

I don't know:rolleyes:

I think we may well have him in an LDS baptismal font soon the way he is going:p

Bro. Rudick