Heavenly Mother

[spiritseeker]

I don't know if this is a topic anyone will discuss but , I wanted to ask after reading a recent article off the web. It was by a Professor Toscano of the University of Utah. It was entitled " Is there a place for Heavenly Mother in Mormon Theology?" The article discusses the doctrinal basis for Heavenly Mother in LDS doctrine. But she talks about a survey done where the majority of LDS polled said that it was forbidden to talk about Her by the GA . But she goes on to say that no where though is there a statement from the GA that says this.... She made one statement that hit me and I was wondering what you all thought about it. Here is the statement; "While some regard the need for silence about the Heavenly Mother as reverance , absolute silence about Her does not protect Her , it erases Her." I am a new convert so if this post is taboo please have the mods delete it.

[bytebear]

It's not taboo, but understand that Margaret Toscano was excommuniated. Not because she talked about Heavenly Mother, but because she taught and preached things that were not doctrine as if they were. Particularly, she encouraged prayer to Heavenly Mother, contradicting what we know about the proper method of prayer, that is, we pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. She also has a very big chip on her shoulder.

[spiritseeker]

Oh I am so sorry !! I didn't know that. Please forgive me....

[bytebear]

No worries. She has some fascinating theories. She just crossed the line when she tried to take those theories into practice and put the mantle of authority upon herself. Anyone can come up with any concepts and theories they want, but when they try to circumvent the authority of the prophet and apostles, it becomes a problem.

[spiritseeker]

I just sent a message to Pam asking her to delete the thread. I really had no idea. I guess as a new member I have to be careful to check sources. I feel so guilty right now!

[bytebear]

Please, don't feel guilty. That's the last thing I want for you. Now I fee bad.

[Moksha]

I just sent a message to Pam asking her to delete the thread. I really had no idea. I guess as a new member I have to be careful to check sources. I feel so guilty right now!

This seems like a valid topic, but if deleting it will serve some purpose ....

[spiritseeker]

Please don't feel bad bytebear. I have enough guilt! You live and learn. I just thank you for being nice enough to share with me.

[mikbone]

Hymn 292 Oh my father - "In the heav'ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

Elohim - Elohim (אֱלוֹהִים , אלהים, sometimes transliterated as Aleim[1]) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix.

Edited May 16, 2009 by mikbone

[Vort]

I don't know if this is a topic anyone will discuss but , I wanted to ask after reading a recent article off the web. It was by a Professor Toscano of the University of Utah. It was entitled " Is there a place for Heavenly Mother in Mormon Theology?" The article discusses the doctrinal basis for Heavenly Mother in LDS doctrine. But she talks about a survey done where the majority of LDS polled said that it was forbidden to talk about Her by the GA . But she goes on to say that no where though is there a statement from the GA that says this.... She made one statement that hit me and I was wondering what you all thought about it. Here is the statement; "While some regard the need for silence about the Heavenly Mother as reverance , absolute silence about Her does not protect Her , it erases Her." I am a new convert so if this post is taboo please have the mods delete it.

Spiritseeker, it seems to me that Ms. Toscano is a one-note piano player. She was excommunicated nine or ten years ago, yet it appears she's still agitating for her pet doctrine. (Her husband preceded her out of the Church by about five years, I believe, and she appears to have dutifully followed his lead.)

We know that our Father has a wife of like glory. Beyond that, we know nothing. Why not? In my opinion, it's probably simply that we don't need to know. At this stage of our existence, we need to focus on our Father and worship him alone. Other information would be extraneous and potentially confusing -- note that even in our present situation, where we have been given almost no information about our "Mother in heaven", Toscano and others already advocate praying to her! How much more of such nonsense would arise if knowledge about her were openly revealed to the Church and the world?

When the time is right, in this life or (more likely) the life to come, we will know all we need to know about our Mother in heaven, including knowing her face to face, as we will know our Father. Until then, please don't let the likes of Margaret Toscano cause you concern.

[Snow]

I love how people that know nothing about Margaret Toscano talk all about her and her motivations.

Typical ploy, denigrate the person to reduce the cognitive dissonance they or the circumstances make you feel.

I can tell you that I have met her and talked with her at some length. She knows a heck of a lot more about the gospel than the majority of the posters her - and has a lot healthier attitude on a number of things to boot.

[dnc76v22]

I just sent a message to Pam asking her to delete the thread. I really had no idea. I guess as a new member I have to be careful to check sources. I feel so guilty right now!

Don't delete it. It can be an interesting topic, although there is no scripture on it. I was once asked to give a talk about Heavenly Mother once. It was on Mother's day. It surprised me greatly that I was asked to give such a talk, but because of so little written, I mostly talked about Motherhood.

[tubaloth]

But she talks about a survey done where the majority of LDS polled said that it was forbidden to talk about Her by the GA .

I would think if the same survey was done about speculative doctrines the same conclusion would be reached. The point is we don't know much at all. That isn't to say we don't know anything. We realize that for what ever reason Heavenly Father chooses no to reveal much. We take it for what it is.

While some regard the need for silence about the Heavenly Mother as reverance , absolute silence about Her does not protect Her , it erases Her."

I agree to some extent. But there is only so much we can talk about here. After that is just making things up. Its pretty much the same thing about if Jesus was Married. The simple answer would have to be Yes, but there is only small hits if any that He was.

Its when we take these ideas to the extreme that problems can happen.

Edited May 16, 2009 by tubaloth

[HEthePrimate]

I don't know if this is a topic anyone will discuss but , I wanted to ask after reading a recent article off the web. It was by a Professor Toscano of the University of Utah. It was entitled " Is there a place for Heavenly Mother in Mormon Theology?" The article discusses the doctrinal basis for Heavenly Mother in LDS doctrine. But she talks about a survey done where the majority of LDS polled said that it was forbidden to talk about Her by the GA . But she goes on to say that no where though is there a statement from the GA that says this.... She made one statement that hit me and I was wondering what you all thought about it. Here is the statement; "While some regard the need for silence about the Heavenly Mother as reverance , absolute silence about Her does not protect Her , it erases Her." I am a new convert so if this post is taboo please have the mods delete it.

Hi Spiritseeker!

I've never heard anybody say it's forbidden to speak about Heavenly Mother, but I have heard people say we're not supposed to pray to Her. Don't know the reason why. I don't buy the "reverence" argument because it implies that God the Father is somehow less holy and deserving of reverence than God the Mother, and that doesn't make sense. I think it's generally accepted that Heavenly Mother exists, but we talk about Her so little that nobody seems to know anything about Her or Her place in our theology. Or maybe it's the other way around, and we don't talk about Her much because we don't know much.

Peace.

HEP

P.S. I've always found it fascinating we sing the final verse of the hymn "O My Father" to both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, even going to the trouble of changing from singular to plural pronouns. If the song of the righteous is a prayer to God, then this would appear to be the only officially-sanctioned LDS prayer to Heavenly Mother (and Father, as a pair).

Edited May 16, 2009 by HEthePrimate

[Maureen]

I just sent a message to Pam asking her to delete the thread. I really had no idea. I guess as a new member I have to be careful to check sources. I feel so guilty right now!

This might be a little off topic but, what's with the easy guilt? Why would you feel guilty for asking a question? I guess this is where studying Psychology would come in handy.

M.

[Moksha]

Typical ploy, denigrate the person to reduce the cognitive dissonance they or the circumstances make you feel.

Is this not part of apologetics?

As far as a Heavenly Mother goes, if we can accept Her existence then can we not speculate about that existence?

Edited May 16, 2009 by Moksha

[Snow]

Is this not part of apologetics?

As far as a Heavenly Mother goes, if we can accept Her existence then can we not speculate about that existence?

Well yes, but not "good" apologetics.

[pam]

I'm going to let this thread stay open. The topic is still a good topic. And Spiritseeker..don't beat yourself up over this. You still brought up a good subject.

[the Ogre]

Well yes, but not "good" apologetics.

There are no "good" apologetics in the same way there are no "good" priestcrafts.

[martybess]

If your a new convert than for sure question every new doctrine you hear and try and find the answers from the scriptures, GA talks and GA books. You can get the wrong answer here as well. [Though most area interested in your growth!]

"Mother in Heaven

See ETERNAL LIVES, EXALTATION, FATHER IN HEAVEN, MOTHERS IN ISRAEL, PRE-EXISTENCE. Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state.

This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father," that man is the "offspring of celestial parentage," and that "all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity." (Man: Origin and Destiny, pp. 348-355.)

This glorious truth of celestial parentage, including specifically both a Father and a Mother, is heralded forth by song in one of the greatest of Latter-day Saint hymns. O My Father by Eliza R. Snow, written in 1843, during the lifetime of the Prophet, includes this teaching:

In the heavens are parents single? No; the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal, Tells me I've a Mother there.

When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me forth to do, With your mutual approbation, Let me come and dwell with you.

Mortal persons who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Eternal Mothers. (D. & C. 132:19-32.) Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve, states: "So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 129.)" [Mormon Doctrine - page 516]

Also see:

Mother in Heaven - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Also we do not know what's in the sealed part of the BOM. It is sealed to test our faith.

- Marty

:)

Edited May 17, 2009 by martybess

[FutureCoastGuardsmen]

I have a question, can you pray to both the Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Mother at the same time?

Just a question.

[pam]

From what I understand we don't pray to our Heavenly Mother..only to our Heavenly Father.

[spiritseeker]

From what I understand the answer is No... That is one of the reasons this Professor Toscano was excommunicated. To answer another question asked by others about my post here on this subject. The reason I felt bad about this post was not because of the question. It was because the author of this article was an excommunicated member of the Church! I didn't know this and don't want to be a part of her apostasy. I feel sad for her the thought that she has lost her blessings....

[mikbone]

Heavenly Father is our God. He presented us with the opportunity to progress by receiving a body and provided a Savior (Jesus Christ) for us. In our pre-existence we made a covenant with Heavenly Father to follow His Plan of Salvation.

Is Heavenly Mother important? Yes!

Do we worship her? No.

Do we Honor her? Yes.

Here is another thought. It applies directly to the debate but removes the femenist movement from the discussion.

Do we have a Heavenly Grandfather, Great Grandfather? If we do, why don't we mention them? Why don't we worship them?

Joseph Smith, 16 June 1844 (Sunday Morning). Grove East of Temple. Thomas Bullock Report

I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the God of heaven. “In order to do that,” said he, “suppose we have two facts: that supposes another fact may exist-two men on the earth, one wiser than the other, would logically show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist. Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.”

If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

Joseph Smith mentioned them.

We don't worship our Heavenly Grandparents because we did not make a covenant with them in the pre-existence.

Edited May 17, 2009 by mikbone

[justamere10]

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents..." (note the plural parents).

Family Proclamation (equivalent to canonical scripture)

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - The Family:A Proclamation to the World