"Custody battle pits white-supremacist parents against state"

[the Ogre]

First: Take the poll above

I came across this story today:

White-supremacist parents battle state - The Globe and Mail

What alarmed social workers most about the little girl were her cold affirmations of racial violence, according to testimony in the first day of a heated custody hearing at Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench on Monday.

The first social worker to interview the girl told court Monday she was alarmed to hear the child describe killing members of minorities in cold, matter-of-fact terms.

“She said you would whip black people with a ball and chain and they die,” testified the social worker.

I do not agree with the ability of the state to take children away from parents for reasons that run against the grain social workers. A great many social workers dislike religion. What if they decided parents could not teach their children about religion?

Is the state wrong in a case as extreme as this?

Edited May 29, 2009 by the Ogre

[Faded]

Here's the trouble with taking children from their parents on the basis of what the parents are teaching: This institutionalizes a set of beliefs as "required" and others as "off-limits." For the government and the courts to intervene in this case seems to make good sense, and on the surface I'd have almost no problem with it. The trouble is the precedent. If a legal precedent is established that the government can take children away whenever the government disagrees with the values being taught, then we're taking dangerous steps toward modern day "State Mandated Religion." Considering the strong tendency of the courts to attempt to enforce atheism upon us, this could go very badly.

[Traveler]

I came across this story today:

White-supremacist parents battle state - The Globe and Mail

I do not agree with the ability of the state to take children away from parents for reasons that run against the grain social workers. A great many social workers dislike religion. What if they decided parents could not teach their children about religion?

Is the state wrong in a case as extreme as this?

There is a story about a 5 year old boy that came home from his first day in kindergarten with a note pined to him that read as follows: “I promise not to believe everything you boy says happens in your home if you promise not to believe everything he says happens in school.”

My point is this: Just because a child says something does not mean that it is true. If a child is being taught to kill then there may be some intervention needed by the state. But I am concerned that this is the case being brought up. Not long ago I remember a young man in the news in Oakland California that killed a policeman and many individuals of the same minority claimed the young man was a hero for killing a policeman. There was no outrage in the press or efforts by the state to remove children from parents involved in protesting for the young man for murder.

I am concerned that the state and media have a bias that will not help dispel racial tensions in this country – because it appears to be very much one sided.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

I am concerned that the state and media have a bias that will not help dispel racial tensions in this country – because it appears to be very much one sided.

The Traveler

Yes absolutely. The media is not helping the situation at all, but that still does not answer the idea of extreme teachings by parents.

I think White-extremism has always been very radical. I remember when my father told us about how every worthy male qualifies as a preisthood holder during a Family Home Evening my mom's parents attended (both of their parents were Jews who converted to the church prior to the turn of the century). This was right after the declaration and dad felt he needed to make sure we understood the miracle of this modern revelation. My grandmother was very vocal in her racism, but both my father and my grandfather said we had to sustain the presidency. My dad said it was such a great day that we were going to have a special meal to celebrate. We were living on post at Ft. Drum and my dad got us what I thought was the best pizza I had ever had.

Right now, racism is extremely radical, but does the state have the right to step in and mitigate in a parents instruction no matter how much we disagree?

[Moksha]

What if they decided parents could not teach their children about religion?

The difference here is that most religions teach very positive values that enhance society rather than harming it like that white-supremacist malarkey. So the rule of thumb would be much like with vegetables: Keep the good and throw out the rotten.

[ploomf]

OK I have to say I felt a little bit ill after reading that article. I'm all for parents teaching their kids their religious values but this goes a bit beyond religious values. This was a seven year old girl who according to social workers was talking very coldly about needing to protect white kids from African American kids and whipping them with a ball and chain till they die. That's frightening. That's not something kids just pick up somewhere that's something that's carefully instilled in them and it's more than a little sickening. Plus even if by some miracle the parents didn't know she believed these things, she came to school with white supremacist symbols drawn all over her arms and legs and a swastika inked on her skin, you'd think her parents would notice that. And there were other problems in the home, parents paying underage babysitters with alcohol, alleged drug use, and unsanitary home, whether this is true or the social workers are just trying to make the parents look worse well that's for the judge to decide. But I think there is something very wrong in that home.

Edited May 28, 2009 by ploomf
Edited because I really can spell, just can't type.

[Carter]

The state is completely wrong. As long as these parents aren't teaching their children to be violent amongst another person, then yes they should be able to teach them whatever they want. If I can teach my child the religion of my choosing in my own home that doesn't hurt anyone physically then it’s really no ones business. Though I personally think these parents are teaching their children the wrong thing I can’t deny them and nor should the government their right to teach/believe it.

[skippy740]

Any religion or philosophy that teaches us to HATE our human brothers and sisters should not be taught to children. We can hate ACTIONS and we can hate CONSEQUENCES and we can hate SINS... but not each other.

Religious freedoms must be fought for and preserved against those that mock or "mimick" religious teachings.

My $.02 worth.

[fish4kitty]

Hate is not a family value. Do I think the government needs to step in for stating an opinion? NO. Do I feel for this child and what she is being taught? YES. Boy this is a tough one.....

[Tarnished]

The problem with the poll is that of course parents CAN teach their children ANYTHING they want, the question might better be, "Should parents teach their children anything they want?"

In relation to the article, though I think that the parent's should not be teaching their children how to kill black people and an absolute hatred for other races it really isn't for the government to be taking away the children because a social worker does not agree with the family's beliefs. If we look at it from an LDS perspective it would be like if a social worker decided to take away our children because we believe in the Godhead instead of the Trinity.

[the Ogre]

The problem with the poll is that of course parents CAN teach their children ANYTHING they want, the question might better be, "Should parents teach their children anything they want?"

Tarnished, thank you for the fine point. The differences between "can" and "should" are quite subtle, but important. I decided to go with "can" to reflect what is happening now and to see if people in different parts of the country are able to actually teach whatever they want. I have heard that in some states, home-schoolers are still required to teach some of the topics they wanted to avoid in the first place. In some countries it is illegal for parents to teach or discuss subjects that run counter to government edict. I believe in the US it is illegal to instruct one's children how to commit crime.

I wanted to reserve the "should" aspect for the forum, so people would be more free than a simple yes/no answer could possibly give.

Thank you for noting the distinction.

[DigitalShadow]

To me this is less about the racism and more about teaching the kid that killing other people is OK which is incredibly dangerous to the rest of society. While I think that teaching your kid racism is disgusting, I don't think it should warrant having your kid taken away. Teaching your kid to kill other people on the other hand does warrant having your kid taken away.

[Misshalfway]

Any religion or philosophy that teaches us to HATE our human brothers and sisters should not be taught to children. We can hate ACTIONS and we can hate CONSEQUENCES and we can hate SINS... but not each other.

Religious freedoms must be fought for and preserved against those that mock or "mimick" religious teachings.

My $.02 worth.

We don't arrest people who hate. We arrest people who act on hate.

[Misshalfway]

I would much rather see the judicial system require the family to do some community service to learn about other cultures or some other such constructive pursuit. I think they are trying to do the right thing here, but I think they are misdirected.

[DigitalShadow]

I would much rather see the judicial system require the family to do some community service to learn about other cultures or some other such constructive pursuit. I think they are trying to do the right thing here, but I think they are misdirected.

Do you honestly think that would help in this case?

[Carter]

Do you honestly think that would help in this case?

I don't think it would help and furthermore, they haven't done anything wrong in the eyes of the law so why should they be punished.

[Seanette]

I would much rather see the judicial system require the family to do some community service to learn about other cultures or some other such constructive pursuit. I think they are trying to do the right thing here, but I think they are misdirected.

I don't think this would help. Aside from stoking the anger these "parents" are already so governed by, do you really think government should be in the business of indoctrinating the population into the desired beliefs?

[the Ogre]

I don't think this would help. Aside from stoking the anger these "parents" are already so governed by, do you really think government should be in the business of indoctrinating the population into the desired beliefs?

I do not think the government should be indoctrinating its citizens, but they do anyway. In South Korea it is called the Ministry of Education. In the US we call it the state curriculum.

[Seanette]

I do not think the government should be indoctrinating its citizens, but they do anyway. In South Korea it is called the Ministry of Education. In the US we call it the state curriculum.

I didn't say I agree with that, either. If I had children, they'd very likely be home-schooled. That way, they'd actually get instructional time and learn basics like spelling, grammar, etc., instead of PC indoctrination and total lack of moral standards.

[the Ogre]

I didn't say I agree with that, either. If I had children, they'd very likely be home-schooled. That way, they'd actually get instructional time and learn basics like spelling, grammar, etc., instead of PC indoctrination and total lack of moral standards.

Good luck with that. Many states still have curriculum requirements for home-schoolers.

[Elgama]

After 17 months of unimaginable cruelty, Baby P finally succumbed - Times Online

maybe it has come in reaction to this story that has my story up in arms there were several stories at the time this was by far the worst

my thoughts are to teach violence against another group is in my country a crime - religious leaders have been refused entry for this and others deported. Not only should child be removed but surely parents could be arrested for incitng hatred?

-Charley

Edited May 29, 2009 by Elgama

[the Ogre]

Charley,

That report is beyond my understanding. There are no words worth saying. The story is too emotional for English.

[Elgama]

I just know Iwould rather be the social worker that overreacted

[pam]

As long as these parents aren't teaching their children to be violent amongst another person, then yes they should be able to teach them whatever they want.

But Carter right there you are putting limitations on what parents should be able to teach their children. So it contradicts your opinion that they should be able to teach them whatever they want.

[Winnie G]

Canada has a hard line on hate crimes,

I can see why they stepped in and took the children.

The grandmother testified today that the childrens mother ditched the children for five months at her home leaveing not knowing were she was, she also said the children lived in filthy homes. The hate crime is the other side of the coin.

under hate cimes legaslation you can not teach hate. A teacher in Manitoba lost his license to teach after it came known he tought that the holacost was a hoax and Jew were behind the hoax.