Can someone please be honest with me?

[Guest Lovely12]

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Edited July 25, 2009 by Lovely12

[pam]

Lovely I don't claim to have the answers to all your questions. I do know that there were many extremely racist remarks made by Brigham Young back in the day. Yet many Prophets since that time have made comments that that is NOT what and how the Church feels about black people. By revelation in 1978 blacks were allowed to hold the Priesthood.

There is no secret white class. If you take a look at how much the Church has grown in Africa and other predominately black areas I think you will see that the Church has an entirely different point of view than what Brigham Young and the early members of the church had.

Please don't let that discourage you. Members of every race, creed or color are welcome into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and as far as I'm concerned we are all equal in the eyes of our Heavenly Father.

[dnc76v22]

Perhaps blacklds.org can help you.

The LDS Church and the Race Issue | Blacklds.org

[Elgama]

Black Mormons and the Priesthood

hope this helps- I suspect people weren't being dishonest they just didn't know or understand. We tend as members to research only the things that bother us or interest us.

-Charley

[applepansy]

Lovely,

I agree with what Pam has said. People are imperfect, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't. Let the gospel guide you. Don't let the ignorance of a few members sway your testimony.

There was racism among the early church members but then there was racism in all of American in the 1800s and early 1900s. That is changing and has changed for many people. I rejoiced when the 1978 revelation allowing all worthy males to hold the priesthood was announced. My father who served a mission in South Africa in the 1950s rejoiced also.

I believe in the "line upon line, precept on precept" principle. I think the Lord reveals more when His people are ready to handle more.

I pray you will hang on to the things you know to be true and not let these other things interfere with your faith.

Edited June 5, 2009 by applepansy
typos

[James_Fryman]

Why does my Patriarchal blessing state my lineage as being the same as some of my white brother and sisters of the church? Why does my blessing go on to say that I fought valiantly in heaven and many wonderful things about me in the pre mortal? The Patriarch holds the priesthood and was ordained by Prophet Hinkley.

Im going to assume that the lineage their talking about is the tribe that your from.My Patriarch told me that what tribe your from isnt determined by your physical lineage. If it says you fought valiantly in heaven and says many wonderful things about you in the pre mortal then you must be very special then but whats talked about in your patriarchal blessing is something only you can figure out, dont think that what Ive said is true because i could very well be wrong. The things that are talked about in your blessing tend to be very personal and just like no one other than yourself can truly know what your the same applys for your blessing. If you have anymore questions ask but I cant promise you can answer all of them.

[hordak]

It is my opinion that NONE of the racial policies / statements including the priesthood ban were from God. These were the opinions of men. BY gave and many after him gave ridicules statements and sermons concerning other races that are completely false (as i'm sure you found) with very strong language including some starting with "the law of God".

IMO if the reason is wrong the policy is wrong it could not be from God.

Many I have spoke with are uncomfortable with this idea as it means all Prophets could be influence by personal opinions and new policy/ current could be wrong.

It is better then the alternative however.

[cyoung]

If you have recieved a testimony that the Gospel is true, it's true. If you choose to hang you hat on something that someone said or did long ago that may or may not have been correct, you will always be blown to and fro.

Is the gospel true? Are you a child of God? Are we all equal in His sight? Yes now, tomorrow, and forever.

If you are looking for a reason not to come back, I guarantee you will find it.

[Islander]

Prophets are human and as such they make mistake, they misjudge things, act on impulse some times, allow themselves to be swept in emotion. The bible is full of those examples.

Beyond that, what was said last Spring in Conference and the words of the living prophets stand fast and hold sway over what was said 200 years ago, regardless of who said it. "History is not destiny. Who you were and what happened to you yesterday has no baring on who you can become and where you can reach" grandma just to say. Forget the history. Catholics are not troubled too much for the horrors of the inquisition in past centuries or the current scandals shaking the Church, for example.

The doctrine as revealed by God is perfect. But even the men that received it are not. Strengthen your faith, do not allow the enemy to plant the seeds of doubt and uncertainty in your mind. Feast on the words of Christ, hold on to your covenant and move forward. At some point we will understand ALL of God's purposes but until then we should be about His work.

[Guest Lovely12]

I am NOT looking for a reason not to come back. I am back! Why is it when I ask sincere questions that I am struggling with, people want to claim I have a hidden agenda? Did you read my conversion story? I have struggled with this issue before I joined the church. We were presented with "truth" before baptism and asked to pray on the things that we are told to us. I feel as though I was not told the truth and things were kept from me. Then when I went inactive in 2005, people wanted to blame me? That really is not fair. I am VERY spirtual. You have no idea. Why do you think I am tormented over this? I sometimes can't function with my day-to-day task, because my faith is such an important part of my life.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Lovely12
Clarity/protection of my family names

[Misshalfway]

Do you really in your heart believe that this is a racist church? I ask that question in all compassion. Search inside of the spirit for the answers. Lean on the spirit of discernment to understand these things.

The truth about church history is an interesting thing. Like all history, it is flawed. The process of restoration wasn't a perfect effort and the people trying to obey the Lord back then weren't perfect either. Expecting it to be as perfect as the message they were trying to bring to the world is perhaps understandable, but not necessarily realistic. Something that doesn't in any way take away from the perfection of the message. I think this movement sprung out of a biblical frenzy and there were many notions about racial preference and I think many parts of the bible were misunderstood -- a misunderstanding that was perpetuated in many different ways even in the attitudes of the early members of the church.

I think it is also important to understand that the restoration was a process and not an event. We don't have all the truth yet even. Hopefully more is coming. :) So perhaps those early saints just didn't see the biggest of eternal perspectives. They saw the perspectives expedient for their time and their tasks of the moment.

As I have studied Joseph Smith, I don't see a racist leader. I think he knew that these concepts were misunderstood in the Christian world. I think he understood more than he was allowed to teach at the time. It is clear that he sought to liberate the slaves of America and that he even invited some to live with him. It is also clear that early black members did hold the priesthood. It is also clear that the church took steps very early on to preach the gospel to people of color, so to say the church is racist is I think a very inaccurate statement.

I am not sure how to figure in all of Brigham Young's statements. Sometimes I think he may have failed to have a clear understanding on these issues or maybe he just had a big mouth. But it is clear to me that God used him in his imperfection the same as he uses any of us. And clearly, with all the inherent struggles of moving thousands to a barren land to start a new life, he was the man to do it.

I think that God knew that there would be a time and a place to deal with race and all the dynamics that go with it. Who knows really why God did what he did. Maybe he knew the dynamics of race in America. Perhaps the issues with regards to the priesthood had nothing whatever to do with it. I don't know. What I do know is that I haven't EVER experienced racism in my lifelong membership in the church. Have I met the occasional idiot that doesn't like mexicans or fat people or blacks? Sure. But I think you know that those individuals don't represent the core of the church teachings and they, among all sinners, are invited to apply themselves to a better way.

Lovely, I think on this issue (and perhaps others in church history) we need to live in the now! President Hinckley led us to move on and to move forward. Much of the imperfection that may or may not have been there on this issue seems in some ways irrelevant today. I hope that doesn't sound insensitive. I think the adversary puts these little fears in our hearts and fuels them with faulty "evidence". I understand the pain of black history. I can't imagine the pain that must have come to you and the people before you. But this church certainly wasn't part the the machine that caused those events to happen. In fact it was a casualty of all that hate too. What I do know is that the Lord is in the business of healing. He will lead his church and heal its weaknesses and the people in it as we move forward on the roads of forgiveness and visions of truth. We must not be deterred because our history is imperfect. The history we are forging even today wouldn't live up to any perfect measure either. And that is ok. Equities are perhaps for the hereafter. We are to move forward EVEN in imperfection with faith.

Best wishes as you work together with the Lord to put your questions to rest.

[beefche]

Out of 10 responses you focus on the 1 that said that? Stop focusing on the negative and look at the other responses that answered your question.

I served a mission at age 24. If someone had asked me about blacks and the priesthood, I'm not sure if I would have answered any differently. I was young, inexperienced in life, and didn't know that much about church history.

So, you may have asked older and more experienced people. That doesn't mean that these people have all the answers, are as concerned about this subject as you, are perfect, etc.

Only you can decide what to do with your life. You can ask as many people as you like, but ultimately you have the responsibility to choose your beliefs and path of life. I suggest you research this subject on your own. You've been given some links in this thread that are great...blacklds.org is a great website. Be careful where you look for answers as the internet is full of venom for LDS people and can appear to be a lovely animal instead of the poisonous snake it really is.

Also, prejudice is rampant everywhere...and not just against blacks. In my mission, prejudice was against Gypsies. That was something we tried to fight as missionaries as best we could. So, YOU be the light and voice for reason. When someone says something that is racial, you show the light of Christ and lovingly and gently lead that person to see truth and love. As we all strive to be more like Jesus, it will take each of us to work together to be united and good.

[bmy-]

Out of 10 responses you focus on the 1 that said that? Stop focusing on the negative and look at the other responses that answered your question.

I served a mission at age 24. If someone had asked me about blacks and the priesthood, I'm not sure if I would have answered any differently. I was young, inexperienced in life, and didn't know that much about church history.

Perhaps.. this is the problem. Our missionaries simply don't know enough. They know the plan of salvation like the back of their hands.. but it seems to me (in general) that they have little to no knowledge of the tough issues.

[skippy740]

Lovely12,

You feeling this way is understandable and I can empathize. I'm not a person of color, so perhaps I'll never fully understand or experience the struggle of faith you're going through right now. You live in an area of the country that is still affected by racist tendancies. I know because I served my mission in the Tennessee Knoxville Mission. I had baptized and taught many of our black brothers and sisters.

This recording was done by a brother in a ward that I was once in. My mother is using these recordings to help us reach out to our black brothers and sisters.

Blacks in the Scriptures - Biblical History - Cain, Canaan, Noah, Ham +

Ezra T. Benson on following the prophet. Please remember: "A living prophet is more important than a dead prophet."

YouTube - LDS Freedom Project II-Follow the Prophet

So, is there a secret class for white members? Do you learn that blacks are the lineage of Cain? Were we less valiant in heaven? Is this what you learn? Because I have asked time and time again and was assured none of this was this case. I was told these were anti-mormon people writing these things and taking things out of context. Yet, I am reading from some of you things that I had not heard.

Some members of the church haven't updated their knowledge and testimony. They aren't inspiration but "the traditions of our fathers". You can read in the Book of Mormon regarding people who "follow the traditions of their fathers" over the revelations of the Lord. In wards & branches with older, lifetime members, it may feel that these more senior & experienced members may seem to have and know all the answers - particularly in Gospel Doctrine.

I, myself, have a relative on my wife's side that when we visited her had some ideas regarding the Lamanites to take over and overpower the Nephites in the last days. (Living in Southern California, it would appear to be true, but I prefer to believe in the best of people, not that it's an "invasion".) It wasn't WHAT she said but HOW she said it. It was with malice and disgust. It FELT racist - even if it was simply an observation. No love at all. It was about 10 years ago and I still remember it.

Let me assure you that MOST of us have become "blind to color" in the church. I know I have. I was raised that way, my heart is that way and that's what the Gospel is all about.

Remember the time of racial tension when the church was founded? It was founded in 1830 - and the WHITE men were being killed for their membership and support. Women raped and children forced to watch. The Church needed to survive. It was a young church, organized by God through Christ and restored through Joseph Smith. The Church evolved over time. When the Church was founded, it wasn't a "temple requirement" to pay tithes and follow the Word of Wisdom. Those things were instituted later. One standard (the law of consecration) was given to all members, but they couldn't keep it, so the Lord instructed that we are to live the law of tithing. We weren't told to have 1 year of food storage at that time either.

ALL CHANGES in doctrine & practice must lead us closer to living the kind of life that Christ would have us live. Is not the Church ever-improving in this area at all times? Why not in other areas of doctrine that have been controversal?

May I challenge you to learn all you can and be a cause for TRUTH in your classes. May your studies help you strengthen your testimony so that you can share it at the drop of a hat and help our other "more seasoned" members learn and understand the truth and they may learn something.

If you don't search out the truth of these matters yourself, who is going to do it for you? Let us know what you find out!

[Guest Lovely12]

Beefche, I have been focusing on every post on here. I have used the "thank" button on many of them. It is just that along my search for answers, I have been rejected by some and treated like an "anti-Mormon". So excuse me if I seem "sensitive".

I am in a lot of pain over this and I don't expect many of you to understand. I appreciate all the sincere responses on this thread and I will continue to pray.

Thank you, MissHalfWay, for your message. I felt it to be very sincere as were others. I do not feel the church itself is racists. I have never felt such love and peace as I have felt in this church. I want the church to be true! I was referring to the statements of some of our past prophets since they lead the church and get revelation directly from God. What I struggle with is if they are in error of these things, then how do I know other things are not in error also? Do you understand? How do I know what teachings from the prophets are true from God or what is from man?

[beefche]

I was referring to the statements of some of our past prophets since they lead the church and get revelation directly from God. What I struggle with is if they are in error of these things, then how do I know other things are not in error also? Do you understand? How do I know what teachings from the prophets are true from God or what is from man?

Just so you know, you are not the only one that feels like this. Several people have come to this website asking the exact same question.

How I answer that question for myself may or may not work for you. Take it as you will.

I find that if I focus on actual doctrine and official statements from the prophets, then I have no problems with anything "controversial" in this church. It's when I start reading Journal of Discourses, biographies, talks given at a meeting (other than General Conference) and focusing on past events that I start to receive doubts and concerns. I have some concerns with issues in this church. I won't go into my doubts--but I can tell you that those doubts and "wonders" are miniscule compared to my testimony of Jesus Christ, Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, our current prophets and apostles. I have chosen to have faith that my issues with our past will be swallowed up in Christ--that He will answer my questions when I need them answered. Not in my time but when He knows it's time.

[skippy740]

How do I know what teachings from the prophets are true from God or what is from man?

Now THAT is a good question!

LDS.org - Ensign Article - To All the World in Testimony

The above is a link to an article in the Ensign. It's a talk by President Hinkley talking about the new conference center. Here are a couple of quotes:

Each of the undertakings of the past was a bold venture, and particularly the Tabernacle. It was unique in its design. No one had constructed a building like that before. It is still unique. What a wonderful hall it has been and will continue to be. It will go on living, for I believe that buildings have lives of their own. It will go on serving long into the unforeseeable future.

Okay, let's take that bolded part "out of context" for a moment.

A prophet of God said it: "buildings have a life of their own." Does this mean that we should do temple work for buildings? Should they be "saved"? Will they enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Do they have souls?

Now, I think you and I both know that buildings don't have souls as they don't come to us by a natural process of birth. The concepts behind such a building may be inspired, but they aren't borne with a soul.

So, would this be an example of the "doctrines of man"? Sure. Was the intent to mislead? Nope. He was conveying a personal feeling that he had and he conveyed it as such.

I hope this helps a bit. Other areas won't be so easy to discern.

That's why we have prayer and the Holy Spirit to guide us.

[Islander]

Lovely:

On a lighter note, these issues of race are old, irrelevant news now. I am also black, more often than not the ONLY one in just about every congregation I have been in Southern California. but I love my brethren of the Priesthood and they have loved me to death. Last week we went to Phoenix for my wife's best friend weeding. She is not a member so on Sunday morning we found the nearest ward on the Church website and went to Sacrament. As soon as the prayer ended I had 4 or 5 brethren on me like ink on paper, all asking us why they did not know we had moved into the ward and where was the moving truck!! I was in Utah last month and the ALL told me that since I was traveling up there so much for business (1-2 per month now) I should consider moving right in.

You may encountered, now and again, some stuck on something they heard an ion ago. They forgot from whom or where they heard it. Take no offense not heed to such non-sense. The doctrine is pristine and perfect, the people are not.

[beefche]

Lovely:

On a lighter note, these issues of race are old, irrelevant news now. I am also black, more often than not the ONLY one in just about every congregation I have been in Southern California. but I love my brethren of the Priesthood and they have loved me to death. Last week we went to Phoenix for my wife's best friend weeding. She is not a member so on Sunday morning we found the nearest ward on the Church website and went to Sacrament. As soon as the prayer ended I had 4 or 5 brethren on me like ink on paper, all asking us why they did not know we had moved into the ward and where was the moving truck!! I was in Utah last month and the ALL told me that since I was traveling up there so much for business (1-2 per month now) I should consider moving right in.

You may encountered, now and again, some stuck on something they heard an ion ago. They forgot from whom or where they heard it. Take no offense not heed to such non-sense. The doctrine is pristine and perfect, the people are not.

Hey Islander, can you come to my "weeding"? I have lots in my yard!

I live in a ward that has a black family of 13--awesome family. I always feel a sense of pride (I know, it's a sin) when I see the boys in this family blessing and passing the sacrament--I sometimes think of other wards who are too vanilla and aren't blessed by having this fantastic family in their ward. I wonder how much good they are doing to dispell the notion that our church is racist--one of the men in this family is almost always handling the sacrament doing his priesthood duty. As we have visitors and investigators (many of whom are black or Hispanic) I wonder if they see how the blacks are treated in the real world and not as noted in the media or other outlets that say we are prejudice.

[Guest lalaonegin]

Lovely, I would suggest that rather than seeking answers online, you look towards Professors at BYU for your answers.

Your search is righteous, and if you allow for those, many of whom have spent a lifetime pursuing similar questions, I think you'll find the answers to those questions.

Later on today, I'll send you a private message with a couple of email addresses in them.

[Guest Lovely12]

Thank you, Skippy740. You have been very helpful as were many of you. I will continue to pray pray pray!

Islander, this goes much deeper for me than you think. I don't disagree with you about how wonderful the majority of the church members are . Me, my husband, and five children, were embraced with pure love from our ward when we were baptized. And, being a black american, I know I will encounter some prejudice people in the church. My problem is with statements and teachings made by past prophets and church leaders. I have had people tell me that these statements were false and never existed, then I have heard other members say just the opposite. Which is why I quesion what is really being taught. If I am to follow the prophet, I must believe in him. I am at a fork in the road. I am making some very important decisions for myself and my family. I should be home schooling my three boys right now, but I am on here seeking answers. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to me.

Many of you have given me much to think about and now the rest is up to me. Thank you all. Please pray for me.

[Misshalfway]

Perhaps.. this is the problem. Our missionaries simply don't know enough. They know the plan of salvation like the back of their hands.. but it seems to me (in general) that they have little to no knowledge of the tough issues.

Maybe they should and maybe they shouldn't. Coming to Christ is a process of faith. Missionaries are meant to invite people, not answer all their questions.

BTW... the "tough issues" in my opinion, are pride and sin.

I think the evolution of the church is much like it is with people. I couldn't in all good conscience judge Alma the younger on his history! Nor would I want you to judge me because of mine. But I know the adversary would! He totally uses our history against us as he beats us relentlessly with all the mistakes we ever made and as he tries to get us to define ourselves and others by it.

Let's keep our eyes on the ball here. Satan would divide us! -- from each other and from the truth. And if getting us hung up on our imperfect interpretations of history or rumor or sensationalism of the facts, then he will! And he will laugh while he is doing it!

Just a little story.......I have some very quiet neighbors. They keep to themselves. I have attempted to wave. They don't wave back. They just quietly work on their very beautiful yard.

I spoke of them with another neighbor who told me they were baptist and that "as we all know" baptists hate mormons and are afraid of them. I found myself immediately defensive and feeling a little righteous indignation as all my "those stupid baptist ideas" thoughts flowed into my mind. And then I had to stop myself. I don't know if any of this is true!! How dare I judge? How dare I separate myself from my neighbors just because of some stupid assumption?

I am going to make some bread and take it over to officially meet my neighbors! This thread has reminded me how stupid it is to let stuff like this effect who I will rub shoulders with.

[Misshalfway]

Thank you, Skippy740. You have been very helpful as were many of you. I will continue to pray pray pray!

Islander, this goes much deeper for me than you think. I don't disagree with you about how wonderful the majority of the church members are . Me, my husband, and five children, were embraced with pure love from our ward when we were baptized. And, being a black american, I know I will encounter some prejudice people in the church. My problem is with statements and teachings made by past prophets and church leaders. I have had people tell me that these statements were false and never existed, then I have heard other members say just the opposite. Which is why I quesion what is really being taught. If I am to follow the prophet, I must believe in him. I am at a fork in the road. I am making some very important decisions for myself and my family. I should be home schooling my three boys right now, but I am on here seeking answers. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to me.

Many of you have given me much to think about and now the rest is up to me. Thank you all. Please pray for me.

I think we all come to compelling forks in the road. :) I think it is suppose to be that way.

Remember the Spirit will tell you how things really are and show you how things really will be. :)

[Tough Grits]

If you have recieved a testimony that the Gospel is true, it's true. If you choose to hang you hat on something that someone said or did long ago that may or may not have been correct, you will always be blown to and fro.

Is the gospel true? Are you a child of God? Are we all equal in His sight? Yes now, tomorrow, and forever.

If you are looking for a reason not to come back, I guarantee you will find it.

When I read this post, I likened it unto myself.

I feel that any one of us can lose our testimony if we are not vigilant. There have been heavy trials that I have had to bear, where I have had to ask the very questions mentioned above. Is the gospel true? Am I a child of God? Are we all equal in His sight? There was a time when the answers to these questions were the only thing that got me through.

We are ALL children of God. In my heart I KNOW that He does not hold His white children above His other children. I am half Cuban, so how would a racist religion or a racist deity see me? It does not matter, because I know that is does NOT matter to Heavenly Father.

This is what I know to be true:

• God loves ALL His children.
• The Savior's atonement was for ALL mankind.

I am sorry that you have encountered situations within your ward and/or within this Church that have caused you pain or caused you discomfort. This world is FULL of imperfect people, and the members of our Church are no exception.

There is another thread right now where certain members have expressed their feelings of exclusion or hurt feelings for other reasons, like being single, being divorced, not being a perfect example of a scrap-booking LDS woman, etc.

Maybe that is why the above post struck me hard when I read it. Any one of us could let the things that fellow members do or say push us out of the Church, but it would be at Satan's delight, not Heavenly Father's.

I hope that you follow the promptings of the Spirit. Just remember, since this is an issue that is important to you---and that you are already sensitive to---Satan will work that much harder to work on this tender wound. But this I also know to be true: Satan has NO power over us.

When things are said or done that press upon this tender wound of yours, I hope you will block everything out and focus on the things that matter most: God's love for YOU, and the Savior's atonement on YOUR behalf.

Much love... ~TG

[NeuroTypical]

Well, God is not racist!

Hi Lovely12,

One thing I learned early on, is that God doesn't really operate according to humanity's latest catch phrase we use to define behavior. So, the term 'racist' has not been with humanity long. We invented it a scant few decades ago, and assigned a definition to it, as we as humans began to grapple with 19th-20th century cultural trends.

So, the first thing I'd like to ask you to do, is figure out what that term means to you, and why you think it's bad.

After you've done that, let's talk about how God has dealt with His kids in the past. Yes indeed, He most certainly has dealt with His children differently based on what race they were. Jews were (and are) his most-favored "chosen people". In biblical times, you had to be related to a certain group of people to be a priest, or go into the holiest parts of the temple. If someone else's blood ran through your veins, you were out of luck. For example - Ezra 2:62 tells of a group of people who wished to be numbered among the Israelites, but their bloodlines were found to be "polluted" with non-Israelitish blood, so they were kicked out of the priesthood. God's rules of the time: "pure blood Israelites only".

So tell me, do you think that was a 'racist' situation - according to our 21st century definition of the word? Was God being 'racist' back then?

LM