Material Wealth

[rameumptom]

The Lord has given us this earth as a stewardship. We have to look at how we are using these precious resources in a prayerful way.

A $150,000 home in America is normally a modest priced home here. A modestly priced home in Vietnam would be much less, so there really is not a true comparison.

I cannot see any need for a $1M Rolls Royce, in any condition. Even heads of state, such as the president, whose vehicles are reinforced with steel plates and bullet proof windows, does not go for $1M (they go for $300K).

I feel we need to be careful in justifying wasting God's resources. So far, our country has not done a very good job with our stewardship.

It has nothing to do with a person being rich or living comfortably. It has everything to do with stewardship. If I had millions of dollars (or billions), I would not own a million dollar home, unless forced to do so for protection (some people like to kidnap rich people). But there still would be no reason to have $1M car, or a collection of cars, when I could use my moneys to help others. This is what King Benjamin taught. This is what Jesus taught. And this is what I believe.

Edited June 25, 2009 by rameumptom

[skippy740]

It's not about the dollar amounts of what things cost to acquire it. (Just look back 30 years and ask if you would spend $20,000 on a car today as you would back then.)

As it was said before - stewardship. I'll add that it takes good financial principles as well.

It's my opinion that if you need to FINANCE a car, it had better be a good dependable car, but not a fancy car. When you need to work for money to pay for the things that help you actually work, you're not in a good place financially. Get a modest car with a modest loan.

If you want a luxury car (like a Rolls, Mercedes, etc.) you should be able to pay cash for that car.

If you live within good financial principles for your money, I personally don't care WHAT you drive or how much you pay for something.

If you earn $1 million per year and you finance everything... you're not on a good path.

If you earn $1 million per year and you have an INVESTMENT account that pays for your new rolls - GREAT! You have money working FOR you instead of you working for money.

I don't think people have any problem with these ideas.

What happens is the "consumerism of America" mentality. "I want that car and I want it now" creeps in. People begin to COVET other people's things without knowing what it takes to EARN them.

Now, it can be VERY easy to think that people who have such means don't donate a portion of their means to people who are hurting.

Well, there are people who are "hurting" who don't know or don't choose to get help at the proper places. This is why I don't give out money to the people who are at the end of a freeway ramp with their cardboard signs. If they want help, they need to go to the places where they can GET the proper help - and learn how to help themselves become more self-sufficient.

Poor people have their pride issues too.

[skippy740]

There appears to be a lack of understanding about economics of certain things.

1. It is our job to provide for ourselves. We can do this a few ways. One is to earn an income to provide for ourselves. But it is also our responsibility to have our money work hard for us - for the day that we CANNOT provide for ourselves. We'll become sick, hurt or die and may not have enough resources to leave behind for the economic security of our families. This is a worthy financial goal for every family everywhere.

2. The football player who earns millions of dollars versus the school teacher. The football player commands a higher economic value because they help to attract ticket sales. How much in ticket sales does the average football game generate? How about snack sales? Sponsors? Advertising? When you are in a position to capture more "wallet share" of the American Public, you should be paid well to continue to attract those dollars.

The teacher? Well, in our current educational system, the teacher attracts up to 30 students who don't earn money. They don't pay to sit in the classroom and the teacher earns a fixed salary - not an override of all the money the school district collects. The teacher isn't set up to earn an income on the future earnings of her students. Therefore the teacher is on a lower economic strata compared to the professional football player.

If you want material success in life, then in addition to following the commandments and the law of the tithe, you need to choose a profession that will ATTRACT economic principles and economic security - not a profession that doesn't.

You may want to study the tax system. The tax system rewards the business owner, but "punishes" the employee. Why? More jobs = more taxpayers. If you hire more people, the government will give you a break. We want more successful business owners in America.

3. Material wealth itself: I'm all for it. But one should not have their self-worth tied to their possessions. This is a POOR mentality. Some people think the rich are rich because of what they have. Nope. The rich got there because they had a unique opportunity (idea, business, executive career, professional education, etc.) and took full advantage of that. They worked hard to get where they are. This is why you can take all the material wealth away from the rich and in a few years. they'll have it all back and then some.

It's not about the money, it's about the person they became to attract what they want in life.

But again, you shouldn't identify your wealth by your material possessions and if your possessions were taken, you shouldn't feel like a "broken man". If called upon by the Lord to give up your possessions, you should do so freely without any hesitation. Why? You can always earn more to replace what was given up. Why? Because of the skills and education it took to get there the first time.

[Hemidakota]

Unfortunately, with past patterns found in the Book of Mormon, when following such deception of wealth is ok; common problem found among the Nephites was wealth acquiring - which leads to pride, which leads to classes of people, which leads to the downfall of the people and the church. Summarizing here, it always lead to the destruction of the people.

Going back to another old post of a member selling his book here on the same topic, I always used Peter's response to Lucifer question, when Lucifer mentioned sell ones covenants [ or soul] for money, this is example to follow. :) “…we have sufficient for our needs…”

[Misshalfway]

Unfortunately, with past patterns found in the Book of Mormon, when following such deception of wealth is ok; common problem found among the Nephites was wealth acquiring - which leads to pride, which leads to classes of people, which leads to the downfall of the people and the church. Summarizing here, it always lead to the destruction of the people.

Going back to another old post of a member selling his book here on the same topic, I always used Peter's response to Lucifer question, when Lucifer mentioned sell ones covenants [ or soul] for money, this is example to follow. :) “…we have sufficient for our needs…”

It is my scriptural understanding that it is the love of money that leads to pride and classes etc etc. And it is pretty clear that the Lord does prosper his people.

The church is pretty rich. I am not seeing a problem there.

[Hemidakota]

There is a creeping problem now as it was in the past; the latter part of 80s if you forgotten and the high times of the 90s. All-in-all, just avoid it and focus on building the kingdom and the helping those around us.

[pam]

Okay for those of you that don't really care for material wealth...just pass it on my way.

[Seanette]

Okay for those of you that don't really care for material wealth...just pass it on my way.

I'd be willing to give unwanted wealth a loving home myself.

[Moksha]

The rich got there because they had a unique opportunity (idea, business, executive career, professional education, etc.) and took full advantage of that. They worked hard to get where they are. This is why you can take all the material wealth away from the rich and in a few years. they'll have it all back and then some.

Or another wealthy relative will pass away for them. Perhaps they could pull themselves up by their bootstraps with their wealthy charm and marry into money.

-----------

I think back to that line Lenny Bruce once said, "If a preacher owns more than two suits, he is a huckster". Ostentatiousness and conspicuous consumption seem to run counter to the holy word.

:)

[Just_A_Guy]

Some statistics on inherited wealth.

[Rico]

If called upon by the Lord to give up your possessions, you should do so freely without any hesitation. Why? You can always earn more to replace what was given up. Why? Because of the skills and education it took to get there the first time.

Now you are getting to the meat of it all. production means nothing, the means of production is everything. Unfortunately, Skippy, you are out of touch with reality. Skills and education will not get you as far as having the means of production.

Heavenly Father owns all of the resources and all of those resources are more than enough for his children to use and prosper with if we just have the right education and skills. That's the way it should be. Unfortunately, a few of his children have decided to monopolize these resources.

Imagine how different the world would be if the means of production were not in the hands of the greedy and that everyone could use their own education and skills to produce for themselves. We could truly then say that the only people living in poverty where those who chose to live in poverty.

Ah, but forget about righting this wrong. The bleeding heart liberals see the problem, but their solution is the status quo. Tax the heck out of production, but keep the means of production in the evil few. All this does is perpetuate the status quo by making it more difficult for others to save up money to acquire the means of production.

I am looking forward to the day when a man earns what he is worth and his experience and skills are truly valued as they should be. We all know that day is coming and when it does, that million dollar car and 20 million dollar house will be worthless.

[MikeUpton]

Now you are getting to the meat of it all. production means nothing, the means of production is everything. Unfortunately, Skippy, you are out of touch with reality. Skills and education will not get you as far as having the means of production.

Your reply is probably accurate in the Phillipines. I suppose we have a different culture, government, etc here in the United States, and so Americans most often tend to think along those terms.

edit: (american terms focusing on personal power.)

Edited June 26, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Hemidakota]

Nice!!! I am currently working in diminishing the usage of the TV set at night to unwind. Now, I listen to BBC-3, which provides age old classic music. :)

[skippy740]

Now you are getting to the meat of it all. production means nothing, the means of production is everything. Unfortunately, Skippy, you are out of touch with reality. Skills and education will not get you as far as having the means of production.

Heavenly Father owns all of the resources and all of those resources are more than enough for his children to use and prosper with if we just have the right education and skills. That's the way it should be. Unfortunately, a few of his children have decided to monopolize these resources.

Imagine how different the world would be if the means of production were not in the hands of the greedy and that everyone could use their own education and skills to produce for themselves. We could truly then say that the only people living in poverty where those who chose to live in poverty.

Ah, but forget about righting this wrong. The bleeding heart liberals see the problem, but their solution is the status quo. Tax the heck out of production, but keep the means of production in the evil few. All this does is perpetuate the status quo by making it more difficult for others to save up money to acquire the means of production.

I am looking forward to the day when a man earns what he is worth and his experience and skills are truly valued as they should be. We all know that day is coming and when it does, that million dollar car and 20 million dollar house will be worthless.

Rico,

You are free to disagree with me.

My opinion is that we can take control of our lives - an empowering notion.

Your point of view indicates that it is useless to even try - a disempowering philosophy.

It's easy to see the differences between the two - but I'd rather have an empowering perspective than a conspiracy mindset and that there's little or no hope to do well for oneself.

You don't need to own the largest corporations to do well for yourself. An individual can do their craft as a business and succeed very well on a local level.

But that's just me.

[rameumptom]

My view is the view of Zion. The current socio-economic policies of socialism and capitalism do not work as well as they should. Socialism brings everyone down to a poverty level, and Capitalism divides people into classes that have a tendency to grow further and further apart. Both have huge room for excesses and abuse, and there are always people who win and people who lose.

Capitalism would work IF people viewed their lives as a stewardship to God. Instead, we see capitalists buying off politicians and having their companies rescued, when they should be allowed to go belly up. How is it fair for Ford Motor Company to play the game right, to suddenly see its failing competition propped up? Or to have the shareholders in Chrysler to take a backseat to others in the car sale of the century?

Greed destroys. And while Capitalism would work based upon a righteous stewardship model, it always devolves to greed when people begin spending their wealth on themselves, rather than on blessing the lives of others.

A person who purchases a $1 M car for himself, needs to truly look at repenting, because they are wasting the earth's resources in huge excess, and not looking out for the poor.

The Book of Mormon mentions that one of the biggest sins of the class system is that some are educated and others not. We see that in our society today. A degree from Harvard will take you much farther than a similar degree from a state college. And the wealthy are able to provide for their children's education much better than someone who struggles to raise the money to get in. For me to get a college degree, I went into the military, and worked hard. It took me 13 years to earn my Bachelor's degree at a state school, while working and raising a family. Imagine what a greater financial benefit it would have been for me had someone given me tuition to a big school, where I could focus on the schooling, instead of it and several other things (I served in a bishopric during my schooling, also).

If instead of buying a $1M car, someone would have hired me, sent me to school, and then used my newly developed skills/talents, I could have benefited both him and me. For this purpose, the Church developed the Perpetual Education Fund, to give people a step up in life. Such is good management of stewardship.

Or Bill Gates and Warren Buffet using their great wealth to improve the world with the Gates' Foundation.

Interestingly, Bill Gates used to lavishly spend money on himself, until he married Melinda. Now he focuses on family and stewardship of his funds - using millions each year to benefit the world. I have no doubt he will be blessed for it.

[MikeUpton]

Rico,

You are free to disagree with me.

My opinion is that we can take control of our lives - an empowering notion.

This is a correct principle, one that God would have us develop in ourselves. We first seek for wisdom, we first seek the Kingdom of God, then we find riches if we seek them, especially when it is to bless the sick and afflicted. Other requirements to riches may come into play, especially where it comes to the issue of your willingness to drop everything and do as the Lord asks, and not lift yourself up unto pride.

One must admit that it is a far easier principle to apply with great outward success in America, it would be more difficult in the Phillipines due to the nature of the economy. But remember that the principle remains the same, and still applies in the Phillipines as well as it does in the US (though your struggle may be a lot more difficult.) I did not intend to imply in my previous comment that your situation is helpless.

Edited June 26, 2009 by MikeUpton

[MikeUpton]

Who here likes a certain political candidate who's name I probably shouldn't mention, (but heck he's not a candidate anymore, so I don't know how this could be said to conflict with the rule) Mitt Romney. I sure like him :)

Mitt Romney's New $12 Million California House

Interestingly, Bill Gates used to lavishly spend money on himself, until he married Melinda. Now he focuses on family and stewardship of his funds - using millions each year to benefit the world. I have no doubt he will be blessed for it.

that is true, but he hasn't sold that 150 million dollar house yet to move to suburbia . his foundation is worth 30 billion. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

Edited June 26, 2009 by MikeUpton

[MikeUpton]

Interestingly, Bill Gates used to lavishly spend money on himself, until he married Melinda. Now he focuses on family and stewardship of his funds - using millions each year to benefit the world. I have no doubt he will be blessed for it.

that is true, but he hasn't sold that 150 million dollar house yet. his foundation is worth 30 billion. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

[Traveler]

I was raised in a wealthy home. My father was, wealthy, influential and very much involved in the LDS church. However, I did not know of all this (except the LDS church connection) until by accident I learned of my father’s wealth and influence in college. Our home was a smaller than normal middle class home (I had 7 siblings) and most of my life I shared a bedroom with two other brothers. For several years three of us sleep sideways in a single bed – legs hanging off.

When I was 8 I went to work for my father. I thought it was necessary to help the family. For most of his life, Dad had 1 old beat up Junker for a car. We seldom ate out (maybe once a year). We always camped on our vacations and never in a campground. We had a family garden and fruit trees in our yard. We also raised rabbits and chickens to eat. We hunted and fished to add to our food supply. I did not know that anyone did such things for fun.

When I learned of my father’s wealth I sat with him and had a long talk. He raised his children in the manner he was raised. He told me that one of the world’s worse curses were the children of the wealthy. He then took me for a ride to two areas of town, the wealthiest and the area of greatest poverty. He told me to look at the children and see which were the most happy. To my surprise it was the children of poverty. They relied on each other and shared whatever they had. The wealthy argued over things and always seemed to be besting each other. Most notably was the attitude and need to be superior therefore needing to control others with the attitude of “If everyone does not play the way I want – I’m taking my things and going home.”

I have since learned that many of the noble individuals of wealth live far below their means and few know of their wealth.

My father would tell people that he could teach them to be wealthy in less than 5 minutes with two principles.

Principle #1. Learn to love hard work – learn to enjoy what most people think is beneath them. Respect and honor the hardest workers. Never fear doing more than your share and never think of doing more as unfair – it is the greatest of honors a person can take on in society.

Principle #2. Always spend less than you earn.

The Traveler

[pam]

Who here likes a certain political candidate who's name I probably shouldn't mention, (but heck he's not a candidate anymore, so I don't know how this could be said to conflict with the rule) Mitt Romney. I sure like him :)

Mitt Romney's New $12 Million California House

that is true, but he hasn't sold that 150 million dollar house yet to move to suburbia . his foundation is worth 30 billion. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

With the beaches in La Jolla and other California areas erroding..he will probably wish he never bought that house.

[ploomf]

I've always said I wouldn't want to be rich and miserable but I wouldn't mind being well to do and a little moody. I'll probably never have that kind of money but if I did I wouldn't waste $1 million on a car, I'd find something much more interesting to waste it on.

[skippy740]

WikiAnswers - What kind of car does Warren Buffett drive

What kind of car does Warren Buffett drive?

About two years ago there was a 2001 Lincoln Town car sold on ebay that was supposed to be his. The auction included Buffet personally picking you up at the Omaha airport in the car.

Answer

He drives an Oldsmobile by GM.

One of the richest men in America (who is co-founding the Bill Gates Foundation) and he drives an Oldsmobile. They don't even MAKE "Olds" anymore!

I'd follow Warren Buffet's lifestyle choices and I know that HE would never buy a $1 million car - and I don't think anybody turns up their noses with the chance to work with him because of the kind of car he drives.

[john doe]

I don't very many of us are in a position to righteously judge the possessions others choose to have or the price they paid for them. I know I'm not qualified to do that. I see some people here and elsewhere engaging in class warfare, which is an old liberal trick to make you think the rich don't deserve what they have and we should take it away from them.

[Rico]

Rico,

You are free to disagree with me.

My opinion is that we can take control of our lives - an empowering notion.

Your point of view indicates that it is useless to even try - a disempowering philosophy.

It's easy to see the differences between the two - but I'd rather have an empowering perspective than a conspiracy mindset and that there's little or no hope to do well for oneself.

You don't need to own the largest corporations to do well for yourself. An individual can do their craft as a business and succeed very well on a local level.

But that's just me.

Yes I am free to disagree with you and free to say that you didn't understand what I said. We need to take control of our lives and be empowered. That means taking action to kick the lousy thieving bums out on their rear. That is real action.

Or maybe we need to completely overhaul our economic system by taking the power back. How is that for empowering?

This system we have now is corrupt. It's time to change things and change things for the better.

You would do quite well to read Progress and Poverty by Henry George and then you might understand what I am talking about. Don't worry, it's in the public domain and won't cost you a thing.

[Rico]

Your reply is probably accurate in the Phillipines. I suppose we have a different culture, government, etc here in the United States, and so Americans most often tend to think along those terms.

edit: (american terms focusing on personal power.)

Dude, I am an American. My ancestors walked across the plains to Zion. I have just lived in enough countries around the world to see the reality that many people face in their day to day life. People really aren't that different around the world and want the same things out of their life. They just have different ways of getting it.