At what point?

[Seanette]

I suspect most non-members think we are all crazy.

I'd give this one a "laugh" if I could for the phrasing.

I have immediate family who seem to think that my faith in God means I've switched off my brain. I really don't care. I have no doubt that the Church is true, and led by inspired authorities, especially President Monson, who is first among fifteen prophets, seers, and revelators.

Human "wisdom" is inherently flawed, God's is not.

[MarginOfError]

I believe Nephi is a prophet and I believe he was commanded by God to kill Laban. Does that make Nephi insane? I believe Abraham is a prophet and that God commanded him to kill Issac. Does that make him insane? (These are rhetorical questions and I don't expect a response, nor will I be back to read one.)

This is an interesting example you choose, because when Nephi was commanded to kill Laban, he did exactly what prophets had told him not to do. What's more, Nephi shrank when he felt the Spirit telling him to kill Laban. He didn't follow blindly, and he questioned the Spirit before he followed through. Nephi had to be persuaded by the Spirit, and then he went against the counsel of earlier prophets (also, recall that at the time, Nephi was not the prophet).

So it turns out that Nephi is a prime example of righteously not following the prophets.

Abraham is also an interesting case as he didn't receive his instruction from a prophet (he was the prophet), but he received it directly from God. But this further advances the case that when God speaks us to directly, it supercedes previous prophetic counsel.

beefche expressed this very well when she said

But I know that if I receive some kind of inspiration that is against the prophet's counsel, I'm going to look at my inspiration again until I am completely convinced it's God's will and not my own feelings.

I think that this discussion would be greatly supplemented by the discussion that is just getting under way here.

[martybess]

D&C 56:14

Behold, thus saith the Lord unto my people—you have many things to do and to repent of; for behold, your sins have come up unto me, and are not pardoned, because you seek to counsel in your own ways.

-Marty

[beefche]

Is that what you REALLY believe that I am saying? That I believe my personal inspiration covers whole Church inspiration of a prophet? Really?

If the prophet says that he is inspired to declare that the Church is going to build a temple in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, I likely won't have any opinion about it - other than intellectual assent that he is likely inspired to so declare. If on the other hand if he instructs me to leave my family, sell my house, give the proceeds to the temple fund, quit my job and move to Fond du Lac to help build it, or course I am not going to do it if I think that is the wrong thing to do. I would only do it if I thought it was the right thing to do. To do other wise is to act blindly.

If a prophet of God called you personally and said that you should pick up and move to WI to build the temple, why do you think God would tell you differently? I don't know you, Snow, but I'm going to assume you aren't bosom buddies with Pres. Monson. If you 2 passed each other on the street, you'd recognize him, but he'd think you were just some random person. So, if out of the blue you get a call from Pres Monson (now we all know how the church works--your bishop said something to your Stake Pres who said something to one of the GAs who then talked to an Apostle who then talked to the prophet and that's how he got your name/#), you honestly think he wouldn't have inquired of the Lord to find out if you were the person to handle that call? How do you think some mission presidents are called?

Here's the thing...I understand what you're saying. You want confirmation that what the prophet says is true. That's great and I think everyone should do that. But in my agreement with pam on the OP is that I think some people (and I think "some" is turning into "many") look for ways to be an exception. That's my concern. When we think we are the exception, then we should be looking at our reasons for that. Is it really because we are the exception? Or is it going to be hard to do/think/believe what the prophet is saying?

[beefche]

Wait 10 years then you can gauge whether or not the fight re prop 22 was directed by God. I'd say there is a fair chance that gay marriage will be so widespread, including California, that the whole fight will have done little more than caused yet one more reason to be angry at the Church - then will hear the apologetic creative juices spinning the spin on how the failed fight was really a victory. (A lady in my ward who needed a job and was certain that her efforts against gay marriage would result in God blessing her with a job.... guess how that one really worked out.)

So do you think the members who followed the prophet's counsel are wrong? Do you think that blessings from God are always tangible in this life? I'm sure you don't, Snow...I've read your posts and think I understand your testimony.

My point is that even if what you say is true about prop 8, will the Lord's people be punished because His counsel changed after 10 years? Giving the blacks the priesthood has been buzzing on this forum for a bit lately--let's use that as an example. Does the fact that in 1970 blacks couldn't have the priesthood mean that for those who didn't agree with that position should have ordained black men to the priesthood? No, it means that even if you didn't agree, you abided by it. Sure, you could write letters to the prophet or do other acceptable things to let the Lord know you wanted this to change, if were His will. But, you weren't the exception, so therefore, you should receive the priesthood (if you were a black man).

Again, I say that we are going to be asked to follow the prophet's counsel on things that are hard for us, personally. Where will we fall? On the Lord's side or will we be the exception? Will our faith sustain us even when we follow the prophet's counsel and things don't go as we expect or plan?

[beefche]

In the light of the idea of always trusting a prophets words, how do LDS see these verses?

If you check out Nu 22:1 - 35 But especially 20-22. God tells Balaam to go but is angry with him for going. God has only said go because Balaam really wants to go, else he wouldn't have re-enquired of God. So God tells him to go to teach him a lesson. Balaam should have known that God had already said no to his going and really checked his motives in going before God and asking again, hoping presumeably to maybe twist God's arm into letting him go.

Or 2 Chr 18:22 where a prophet deliberately lies until the question is pressed further and it is God who sanctioned what was occurring.

IMHO If you need to sometimes go and check the words God is giving us to ensure that our motives in asking are correct or that God doesn't have an alternative reason for allowing us down that path, how much more shouldn't we test the words of a prophet of God.

We could also use Jonah as an example. Or Joseph Smith and the 116 pages as an example. So are you saying that Balaam was more blessed for getting God to change His mind?

Does God allow us our agency and allow us to make mistakes and learn from them? Absolutely. Does that mean that we would have been better off following God's first counsel? Probably--I may not be able to tell the exact reasons why, but I do believe that the Lord wants us to follow Him--not blindly as some allege. But trust Him to know what He is doing and follow Him because we know He is our God, Savior, and we want to please and worship Him with our obedience.

But, the Lord is merciful so there are times He gives us what we ask for. I think when that happens we are losing something in exchange--again, I don't always know what that is and may never know. But He is God and knows more than I.

[AnthonyB]

I believe that you should follow God and someone you believe is a true prophet of God and wholeheartedly at that. Just that if you get what you think is a command that contradicts an already expressed word from God (either directly from God or through a prophet) that you should make sure you really heard God rightly and your motives are pure.

Edited June 26, 2009 by AnthonyB

[Jim108]

I've noticed a trend lately on numerous threads concerning following the counsel of our Prophets. I must admit that personally, I'm rather appalled at the trend. So forgive my ranting but just something I had to post.

It just seems to me that anymore we only follow or feel we have to follow the counsel given if it suits our purposes. To me that is a dangerous way of thinking.

I firmly believe in the importance of following the words of our Prophets. I will agree that they are men and sometimes it is opinion given. But I truly believe they are so in tune with the Spirit and have such a relationship with our Heavenly Father and with our Elder Brother Christ that they would fail to give us words of advise that would steer us wrong. I'm not talking about things that have been said in the past that modern revelation has since corrected. So I don't even want to go there. I'm talking about modern prophets. Today's words of advise and counsel.

In primary they learn a song called "Follow the Prophets"

Follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don’t go astray.

Follow the prophet, …

Follow the prophet; he knows the way.

We can get direction all along our way,

If we heed the prophets—follow what they say

Do we teach our children this but with a disclaimer?

President Uchtdorf

Elder M. Russell Ballard

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Remember Him through Following the Prophet

Many will say they don't have a trust of what a "man" will say. Well my personal testimony is that these men that are called and that we sustain in General Conference as our Prophets and leaders are men of God. They speak with God and have personal revelation. They pray constantly on our behalf.

I suppose I just get tired of reading how we should only use our own inspiration to guide our lives. I would agree with that to a point but let's not count out the wise words of our Prophets as well.

Okay I'm done ranting.

I agree, follow the living prophet, accept my living prophet is Jesus and he should be yours too. He lives in all believers.

[john doe]

I agree, follow the living prophet, accept my living prophet is Jesus and he should be yours too. He lives in all believers.

We're not going to go down that road again are we? If you want to make that argument then start a new thread.

[Jim108]

We're not going to go down that road again are we? If you want to make that argument then start a new thread.

Yes, it is that silly old road of Jesus. Do you know Him?

[Snow]

If a prophet of God called you personally and said that you should pick up and move to WI to build the temple, why do you think God would tell you differently? I don't know you, Snow, but I'm going to assume you aren't bosom buddies with Pres. Monson. If you 2 passed each other on the street, you'd recognize him, but he'd think you were just some random person. So, if out of the blue you get a call from Pres Monson (now we all know how the church works--your bishop said something to your Stake Pres who said something to one of the GAs who then talked to an Apostle who then talked to the prophet and that's how he got your name/#), you honestly think he wouldn't have inquired of the Lord to find out if you were the person to handle that call? How do you think some mission presidents are called?

Here's the thing...I understand what you're saying. You want confirmation that what the prophet says is true. That's great and I think everyone should do that. But in my agreement with pam on the OP is that I think some people (and I think "some" is turning into "many") look for ways to be an exception. That's my concern. When we think we are the exception, then we should be looking at our reasons for that. Is it really because we are the exception? Or is it going to be hard to do/think/believe what the prophet is saying?

And here's the bottom line thing... I don't rely on a third party to tell me what God wants me to do. It is a fundamental principle of our religion that if we want to know what God wants us to do, we get it straight from God.

If the prophet asks me to do something, the deciding factor is not that he asked me, rather the deciding factor is whether I think that it is the right thing to do. If I am smart about it, in the deciding [of it], I include things like considering the source of the request, it's adherence to known gospel principles, prayerful consideration etc, but I decide, not a third party.

What is unfathomable to me is the kind of insane thinking (lack of) that I've seen here - that if a prophet asked me to do evil (ie murder/suicide), I'd do it. arrrgghhh.

[Snow]

So do you think the members who followed the prophet's counsel are wrong? Do you think that blessings from God are always tangible in this life? I'm sure you don't, Snow...I've read your posts and think I understand your testimony.

My point is that even if what you say is true about prop 8, will the Lord's people be punished because His counsel changed after 10 years?

I am not making much of a judgement that the Church's efforts were inspired or uninspired. I haven't checked for myself but I think I see the writing on the walls and would not be surprised if the whole thing goes for naught within a decade. I would also not be surprised to then see people spin the whole thing saying that we won a moral victory, or that we will be rewarded in the afterlife or some other convenient apologetic claim.

No - I don't think that people will be punished but neither am I sold that is was worth the time and effort.

Giving the blacks the priesthood has been buzzing on this forum for a bit lately--let's use that as an example. Does the fact that in 1970 blacks couldn't have the priesthood mean that for those who didn't agree with that position should have ordained black men to the priesthood? No, it means that even if you didn't agree, you abided by it. Sure, you could write letters to the prophet or do other acceptable things to let the Lord know you wanted this to change, if were His will. But, you weren't the exception, so therefore, you should receive the priesthood (if you were a black man).

No - I don't think that those that disagreed with the ban should have disobeyed it. Whether the ban was right or wrong, we are a house of order. However, I think it likely that the ban was not directed by God but rather by circumstance and prejudice. Thank heaven that Spencer Kimball had the courage to actually check for himself.

Again, I say that we are going to be asked to follow the prophet's counsel on things that are hard for us, personally. Where will we fall? On the Lord's side or will we be the exception? Will our faith sustain us even when we follow the prophet's counsel and things don't go as we expect or plan?

You are asking whether or not we will fall on what someone else says is the Lord's side, that may, or may not be, history shows, the same thing as the Lord's side.

[pam]

I agree, follow the living prophet, accept my living prophet is Jesus and he should be yours too. He lives in all believers.

Jim that is great that you think so. I'm happy for you. But we also believe we have living Prophets here on the earth. Currently it is Thomas S. Monson.

I truly am tired of your comments where you twist our words around to insinuate that we are incorrect. It's exactly what you do. I'm going to ask again that you give us the courtesy as well of believing the way we believe.

[Snow]

I agree, follow the living prophet, accept my living prophet is Jesus and he should be yours too. He lives in all believers.

Perhaps you can tell us the 10 most significant things that your prophet has revealed or prophesied in the last 25 years.

[beefche]

Snow, I'm still not sure I understand what you believe a prophet's role is. Why do we have living prophets? What is their purpose?

What I'm understanding you to say is that when a prophet speaks, we should not believe him unless the Lord reveals to us the same thing. And although I understand that to some extent, I think that is also a lack of trust in the Lord. If we believe a prophet is called by God and is God's mouthpiece, then why should we doubt him when he is speaking as a prophet?

Perhaps the confusion is when is he speaking as a prophet and not as a man? For me, if it's said with the backing of the 1st Pres and Quorum of 12, then that is when he is speaking as a prophet (the proclamation on the family comes to mind). When he speaks in Gen Conf then he is speaking as a prophet (within reason of course...his rooting for UoU is definitely signs he's just a man!). I'm sure there are others, but those come to mind immediately.

[Carl62]

I agree, follow the living prophet, accept my living prophet is Jesus and he should be yours too. He lives in all believers.

Our belief in living prophets is simply an extension of following the prophets and apostles of the Bible. While we both agree that Jesus is the ultimate prophet that should be followed, you also follow the teachings of Paul, right? and John the Revelator? and Peter? and Titus? and James?. Well, ours just extends a little further with people like Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B. Hinkley, Spencer W. Kimball, as well as all the apostles that have served under these prophets. That's all. And if you're going to go the route of handling "contradictions", then please refer back to my previous post (#95) and that should answer that question.

[Palerider]

Jim JIm Jim.....we believe in Jesus to....thought we already talked about that......the name of the church Jim......the name of the Church.....

[Snow]

Snow, I'm still not sure I understand what you believe a prophet's role is. Why do we have living prophets? What is their purpose?

I guess that question would make sense if you believe that a prophet's role is to receive revelation for another individual that such other individual is not capable or entitled to receive. but a prophet's role is not that or not just that. A prophet is one who warns a generation. He is, in our case, an administrator. He leads and directs like a manager. He sets strategy and policy. Occasionally, not often, he receives new doctrinal or scriptural revelation, he counsels and sets the example. He teaches. He holds the keys to all-Church or all-earth priesthood authority and exercises those keys.

What I'm understanding you to say is that when a prophet speaks, we should not believe him unless the Lord reveals to us the same thing.

You can choose to believe the prophet as a simple matter of faith, or trust on somethings, but lets say that the prophet told me to take a second wife. No way would I do so unless God also revealed to me that I should. Would you? Would you do something that you believed was the wrong thing to do unless you were inspired to accept it?

And although I understand that to some extent, I think that is also a lack of trust in the Lord. If we believe a prophet is called by God and is God's mouthpiece, then why should we doubt him when he is speaking as a prophet?

You are missing the point entirely. God, I trust. What I don't AUTOMATICALLY accept is what OTHERS say that God says.

Perhaps the confusion is when is he speaking as a prophet and not as a man? For me, if it's said with the backing of the 1st Pres and Quorum of 12, then that is when he is speaking as a prophet (the proclamation on the family comes to mind). When he speaks in Gen Conf then he is speaking as a prophet (within reason of course...his rooting for UoU is definitely signs he's just a man!). I'm sure there are others, but those come to mind immediately.

That's kind of a cop out, I think, or can be. The prophet is speaking as a prophet so long as he is correct, but if he is incorrect, then he is not speaking as a prophet. What prophets have said that turn out to be incorrect is a long list.

Revelation, for each and every saint who seeks it, is foundation to our belief system. I say that watering down that principle and instead relying on others to get our inspiration for us is dangerous and lazy.

Don't misread me. I can't think of a recent example when the brethren gave some instruction of counsel that was or appeared to be inspired that I reject. I start from the perspective that they know what they are doing - but I wouldn't rely on that to the exclusion of finding out for myself.

[ruthiechan]

Wait 10 years then you can gauge whether or not the fight re prop 22 was directed by God. I'd say there is a fair chance that gay marriage will be so widespread, including California, that the whole fight will have done little more than caused yet one more reason to be angry at the Church - then will hear the apologetic creative juices spinning the spin on how the failed fight was really a victory. (A lady in my ward who needed a job and was certain that her efforts against gay marriage would result in God blessing her with a job.... guess how that one really worked out.)

I suspect that when gay marriage is wide spread we'll be focusing more on loving the sinner while eschewing the sin. We'll also probably hear a LOT more talks on the structure of eternal families as well. True doctrine is the only way to combat such issues.

I had one coworker who was gay. When he found out I was Mormon he asked me what our stance was, and what was the big deal after I told him. I said that to explain that I would need to tell him about the Plan of Salvation, otherwise it wouldn't make sense. He was cool with that. I did so, including, of course, eternal marriages and families and temple work. His reaction was interesting. "Ohhhh. So this marriage thing really is a big deal to you guys." I was like, "yeah, it's a fundamental part of our religion, and has been since the beginning before any of this stuff came up. It's not about hate, and anyone spouting hate towards homosexuals are not acting in a Christlike manner and is frowned upon." He came to an understanding that our secular discussions had not been able to bring forth.

*sigh* Every time I tell this story I miss him.

[Hemidakota]

A teachable moment that was executed appropriately in dishing out knowledge.

[Carl62]

Seriously??? Do you really believe it would be God's will that you commit suicide? What if he asked you to kill your own child? What if he asked you to break the law of chastity? Where do you draw the line? If President Monson asked me to do any of those things I would tell him to take a hike.

This is why we sustain our prophets and apostles as leaders who we KNOW are following the teachings and examples of Christ and, as a result, would want us to do the same. Because they lead by using the teachings of Jesus, IMHO they would NEVER ask us to do something that Jesus himself wouldn't want us to do. To give examples of false leaders who are not lead by Christ and are thus spouting off orders just to see how hight their members will jump and ending with horrific results, we don't need to go to the Koreshs or Mansons or J. Jones's of the world because WE HAVE IT RIGHT IN OUR OWN LDS FAMILY! Have we forgotten all about our good ole' weird cousins, the FLDS?! As we've seen over the past year what horrors can be unleashed when people follow a leader who's only inspired by narcisism and not by the will of God. That's why their church is falling apart right in front of us every night on the news whereas our church is continuing to grow only bigger and stronger because it's all led by our great Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Jesus even promised to all of those who are believers in His true gospel that He would "never leave nor forsake us". He appears to be keeping that promise just fine.:)