So i made a deal with God...

[deblldo]

Hi All,

For those who want to searc my few posts on here you will see that i have been baptist for 16 years of my life, the past 2 years i have been searching, questioning doctrines i have been taught etc etc. I have visited a few different churches, including pentecostal, catholic, methodist. I have studied with Jehovahs wittness'. I also studied with lds missionaries for about 6 months. I loved the study and most of it made sense to me, there were a few issue's i struggled with, but i decided to visit the church. This was when i decided becoming a lds was not for me, i just didnt feel comfortable in the service, wasnt what i was used to . I also so suffered big opposition from my family and friends and didnt know enough to defend my new church, so i decided it would be easier to stay in the "family" church. This all happened last year.

So i didnt study it or read my Bom any more and concentrated on my bible. But i cant seem to leave the Lds faith alone, i secretly read my Bom at night, i am always on these types of forums reading and learning. Im so confused. There are things i dont agree or understand in your faith yet i seem to be hooked, yet to join your church doesnt exactly thrill me either (sorry i dont mean to be disrespectful, the people were lovley i just felt so alone).

So back on topic i prayed to God and because i have just moved house, i said "If Lds missionaries visit my neigbourhood this week , then i will take this as a sign from you that tis is the church you want me to be in". Do you think thats fair? Or am i losing my mind, any way its friday tomorrow so not long left.

any advice you can give will be appreciated.

deb

[Honor]

I'd be careful in situations when you're asking God for a sign. I think most times our Heavenly Father would like to communicate with us through prayer, study, and personal revelation. His spirit speaks to our hearts in a way that is more clear and personal than a sign. If missionaries don't show up, will you take it as a sign that it is not the true gospel? So often in life I think of my Heavenly Father watching me and, like a loving parent, shaking his head and smiling as I try to pretend like I know better than He, in the decisions I make. Often times those experiences come with disappointment, but now in hindsight, I can see that He knew it's what I needed to overcome my pride and to turn in humility back to Him instead of leaning on my own understanding or my own personal wants.

HOWEVER, this is a personal matter, between you and God. You set the terms of the deal. I guess what I think you need confirmation of, is if God agreed to the deal as well. When God makes a promise, he fulfills it, although most of the time it is usually action on our part that - a demonstration of our decision and faith, that brings about the confirmation from Him.

I sincerely hope that you find what you're looking for. I know that God has power to do all things. His power has worked miracles MUCH greater than missionaries being in the right place at the right time. He CAN do this. Just don't miss all the other ways that He might be trying to communicate with you because you're looking for two white shirts to come walking up to your door. He sure seems to like to answer my prayers in the way that I least expect it.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Honor

[beefche]

Ditto to what Honor said.

But just in case someone wants to give God a nudge....what's your new address?

[EruditioSalvatus]

When it comes to signs and divine powers things can be tricky, or even amusing. I mean, look at moses' situation -god came to him as a burning bush. Pretty sure that of things that god would show up as a burning bush wasn't on moses' mental list.

On another amusing note, I recently passed by a church (of where there are scores and scores of) that was being renovated. It had one of those shiny new signs that you could put messages in and, what do you know, it had a message on it:

"If you're looking for a sign from god, this may be it."

[pam]

It's funny. I was reading D&C this morning and the very scriptures that I read about were concerning signs.

D&C 63:7-12

7 And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation.

8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.

10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.

11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

12 Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory.

[mlbrowninwa]

I agree with what Honor has posted above. For several years I was like you. I constantly felt a pull to the LDS church. Heavenly Father tells us in the scriptures that we must ask him in prayer. We must come to him in complete faith and if we do this, the answer will be revealed. I can testify that he will answer. I felt kind of alone when i went to the services the first couple times. I think this is the case with any new church. However once i became serious in my search and honestly started listening to the whispers of the spirit, things took a big turn. When I returned to church meetings and started taking the discussions again, the warmth i felt gave me the rest of the answer I was looking for.

It has been amazing since my baptism(which was about a month ago)and I have been welcomed into the church. Not everyone in my life agreed with my decision or were totally supportive. But I decided to put my life in the hands of Heavenly Father and to follow Jesus Christ. Best decision I've ever made. Continue to read the scriptures and pray. Heavenly Father will answer. Good luck on your journey.

[its_Chet]

It's been my experience that making deals with God doesn't provide the results you expect, but still strengthens your faith, enough to make it worth your while. It is, after all, basically a covenant without the sealing power of the Priesthood.

When my mother and I were stranded in a foreign country, out of money with four days left for our return flight home, and the airline wanted us to pay a fee to go home early, I made a deal with God. I offered to read a chapter out of the Bible each Sunday for every day early He got us home. My mother appealed to all the airlines for help. We didn't get out that day, but we got out the next (Thank you Continental!). Rather than reading three chapters, as the deal would have required, I read four (Thank you God!).

When I had fallen in love for the second time with a girl who only thought of me as a friend, I made a deal with God that I would burn all the "adult" magazines and videos I had in exchange for Him making her mine. I did my part in advance. He did not make her mine, but I'm hard pressed to call that not honoring His end of the deal, though technically that's an accurate statement. She was poison. She would have made my life a hell that would have ended in my suicide, and I have no doubt of that. I have never regretted the decision I made, even though I didn't get what I wanted.

My point is that I have never made a deal with God that I regretted, regardless of how He held up His end of it. And the way He holds up His end is never the way I expect, going into it, though I always end up better in the end, and it's mostly because when we make a covenant with God, the real reward comes from what we do. When we shed a sin, when we sacrifice a vice, when we commit to honor God, we make ourselves eligible for blessings we had not previously been worthy or strong enough to receive.

That said, if I were you, I'd keep reading the Book of Mormon (not because it is "better" than the Bible, but because you're already familiar with the Bible), keep pondering it (without the encumberance of holding societal conventions above the wisdom of God, as we are all tempted to do from time to time), and keep praying. Eventually, the missionaries will come to you. They are servants and messengers of God, rather than God Himself, so the level of their ability to discern His will is an added factor to the equation. If they don't come right away, it could mean that they were preoccupied with something else and did not hear His call, or perhaps God wants you to continue studying, to prepare your heart to receive the message they will bring. Heavenly Father always does what He thinks is best, even if it's not what we think is best. And He's smarter than we are.

As a convert to the Church, I can assure you that it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. I suspected it when I got baptized, but after continuing to study the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I eventually came to know it is true, for certain. When baptized by someone with the proper authority, we are next given the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is an ordinance in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and all ordinances are necessary for our salvation, like baptism, for example. The gift of the Holy Spirit allows us an increased level of guidance from the Holy Spirit. We become eligible for personal revelation, and this is the only way we can truly know that Jesus is the Christ, that our Heavenly Father lives and loves us, as well as all other truth. A man can lie, regardless of whether or not he actually is lying. A book can contain lies and misinterpretations, regardless of whether not it actually does. The fact that these oracles have room for error by their nature necessitates our reliance upon the Holy Spirit to confirm truth to us. This is how Heavenly Father intended it to be. Not all men and books lie. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Apostles are here to teach us the truth, but we can only know they are true by the confirming "voice" of the Holy Spirit. And when the Holy Spirit reveals truth to us, it is more reliable than anything we could read or hear, because we know the source is incapable of lying. Scientists often have untrue theories. Our senses can deceive us. Empirical evidence is less reliable than the guidance of the Holy Spirit. A book or the teachings of a Prophet may be true, but we can't know that until the Holy Spirit verifies it to us.

That said, you will find, the more that you study the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that it is logical, when properly understood. While logic alone should not be used to determine which Church is true, you will find logic in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, once the seemingly confusing things in it are properly understood. There is much in the Bible and the Book of Mormon that I did not understand until after sufficient study, pondering, and prayer, and this with in conjuction with the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Church has some truly remarkable scholars whose assistance has been helpful as well. But like all truth, you can only know it's true when the Holy Spirit confirms. Until then, it's taken on faith, which isn't a bad thing, don't get me wrong on that. When the answers have not yet come, and it seems they never will, it is faith that helps us endure to the end. I believe God prefers that we act on faith rather than knowledge sometimes, even though He freely gives me knowledge as a reward for my faith. Faith is more important that knowledge, because faith can carry us forward when knowledge stops.

Long story short, be prepared for the missionaries to come talk to you, but don't give up on them if they don't show on time. You still have access to limited guidance from the Holy Spirit, you have the Bible and the Book of Mormon, both of which are profoundly important books full of truth and wisdom. And you still have prayer.

Don't be afraid to do what you think is right, even if it defies the conventional thinking of the society in which you live. They laughed at Noah until it started to rain. The Hebrews believed Moses had led them to their death until the Red Sea parted. The Sanhedrin assumed that because Jesus chose not to come down from the cross and avenge Himself that it meant He couldn't do it. The Church is true. When you independently find this to be the case, don't be afraid to be baptized. I leave this with you in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Dr T]

Hello Deb,

If you do see the missionaries down your street this week then is it from God or from Satan? could be the question to ask.

[its_Chet]

Hello Deb,

If you do see the missionaries down your street this week then is it from God or from Satan? could be the question to ask.

No offense, but are you implying something?

[deblldo]

Hi,

Thankyou for all your replies, they mean so much, sometimes i just feel alone. I have no lds friends and people think im silly for wanting to know more about you guys. I have tried to tell myself that it doesnt matter what church your in God knows your heart but i just feel a pull toward your teachings.

Maybe your right and things might not work out the way i want them to as God knows better than me, im just tired of going round in circles and want to know what i should be doing, i fell like im wandering around with no (church) home.

thankyou again i really appreciate, you replies, back to the bedtime reading!

deb

[Jbs2763]

Deb, what part of the country are you in, what country are you in for that matter? is there an LDS congregation in your town? or a nearby town?

[Heavenguard]

Deals with God... usually don't work. Or they don't work out the way you expect or would like. Do you have some friends you could talk to? I myself just called out my best friend to talk about some needs I have, and she told me hers. We didn't really resolve any of our issues, but it's alwas helpful to be able to talk things out with a sympathetic someone.

[deblldo]

Hi,

I am in the u.k, there is a lds church in the next town a bit too far to walk and i dont drive. The only friends i have are baptist christians and do not understand at all. The missioanries told me before to step out in faith and God will give His answer, but i have so much to lose. I guess im being selfish and should do what i think is right, it would just be nice to know that what im doing has GOd's seal of approval then it wouldnt hurt so much what people say.

deb

[pam]

No offense, but are you implying something?

haha That's kind of what I thought when I just read that.

[FunkyTown]

Hey Deb,

I experienced a very similar situation to you when I first joined the church. My family were certainly not big on it. I'm living in the UK myself now, too. :) In a town called Egham.

[sjdean]

Hi deblldo, great post. Reminds me of myself in many ways.

There are some things I don't understand about the LDS faith, but I am inexplicably drawn to it. But I can't bring myself to do anything about it and make a serious commitment.

I too keep asking for a sign, and why not?

Once I was given a Book of Mormons by a couple of missionaries in Solihull giving out books. I haven't seen anything like that before or since.

I heard something about the idea that you shouldn't test God either. I suppose in that respect, it is not right to ask for a sign. It is perhaps doubting God. But at the same time, what is Moroni's promise if not a sign or a deal?

So I figured I'd change the terms of my deal.

Instead of asking for a sign off God, who I believe is incontrovertible, I thought I might ask for a sign from the missionaries. When I invited the missionaries round for the lessons, they gave me the talk on the holy spirit and how they've felt an urge or something of that nature to knock on a door.

Well, if they're guided like that, then they must knock on my door.

I decided to stop asking God to knock on my door and instead Im asking the missionaries!

Cya

Simon

[its_Chet]

It may be important at this point to draw a distinction between making a deal with God and seeking a sign or testing God. One is perfectly okay, and the other two are not.

Making a deal with God is okay. It's basically like making a covenant, only not as serious since it's not sealed by the Priesthood, and is usually done from a significantly less enlightened position than a covenant would be. Even when, like in my case that I mentioned on my last post, the deal is made by someone who has little faith and isn't sure what will happen, there is still a modicum of faith required. We don't make deals with a God we're convinced doesn't exist, after all. I guess in a way the deal I made at the airport could have been kind of considered a test, but I like to think that since I went beyond honoring my end of the deal that respect and gratitude were the over riding factors in that deal.

Basically, making a deal with God, as I see it, is a plea for His assistance by a person not fully convinced one way or the other what He will do, but yet believes that He can do something to help. And part of making a deal involves ponying up your end of it also.

Seeking a sign or testing God, on the other hand, are bad ideas. They imply skepticism, cynicism, and pride. It's as if to say "If you're really there, prove it." And invariably, that which is sought by the person doing such a thing is some kind of miracle that only follows faith. Faith which is absent in the endeavor. It's like demanding that a wagon move on its own without a horse to pull it. But in addition to that, it's a slap in the face to God. It's treating him like your own personal "yes man", a breath-taking show of irreverence and disrespect. God builds planets and stars, and governs worlds without number. It is very unbecoming to demand that He satisfy mere curiosity or prove His existence, contrary to the plan of salvation. The plan of salvation requires that we demonstrate faith before we receive any signs. That faith may not have to be much, but at least some is always required.

I don't know how much faith deblldo has, but I think it's safe to say she has enough to get things started here. Perhaps the question is, is she beyond that point? Is she at a point where Heavenly Father, rather than sending the missionaries to her, wants her to seek them out? I think only deblldo can answer that one. Maybe that's the real question. How much faith does she feel the Holy Spirit asking of her? More than she's shown so far? Not more? She may need to consider that as part of the path to getting answers. I think sjdean is onto something.

As a convert, I know that my baptism took a leap of faith. My testimony came later. I got baptized on a hunch. The miracle (in that case, my testimony) came after the demonstration of faith.

[mnn727]

John 17:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Sorry, your "deal with God" seems pretty one sided to me. To me giving God an ultimatum is never a good idea -- lets turn the 'deal' around a bit "Send the missionaries to me, without my doing anything, or I won't join your Church" Same exact meaning -- but a different point of view.

Sounds like God has been leading you for months, yet you keep putting him off, you say Church is lonely -- have you tried to get to know someone? the best way to get a friend is to be one.

Edited July 17, 2009 by mnn727

[deblldo]

Hi,

Thanks Simon, its nice to know that im not the only one. I am in cannock in the midlands. As for the other posts i do agree, i am not meaning to test God i just want to make sure im doing His will rather than going off and doing what i want, ive been a little bit of a church hopper the past 2 years, and to be honest im not sure if thats because i havnt yet found the church that God wants me to be in or because im looking for somtying that doesnt exist.

If i had my own way and cared about no-one else i guess i would be down at my local Lds church on sunday and just keep going til i fet it was right (or wrong) for me. However this is a very big step for me to make, due to the fact i have been a baptist for 16 years, that my husband does not agree, annd that the pastor of my current church happens to be my father- in- law. I think it would seem selfish and hasty to just go off and "see what happens" although i know that if this is the church God wants me at things will work out.

If this is where God wants me then i just want to make sure before i cause upset in my family and make a stand for a church that im not sure of.

I hope this explains my situation a little better, im not trying to be demanding, i just dont want to flit from church to church any more, and the next time i want to make such a big step i want to make sure that its the right one.

deb

[bytebear]

You can attend church as a visitor for as long as you like before baptism. Maybe you should try attending for a month or two and decide if you want to join after that. But I would say be an active visitor, meeting the members and involving yourself in Sunday School for example.

[Maureen]

deb, have you talked to your husband about your religious feelings? If so, how does he feel?

[sjdean]

Hi Deb, I was thinking about adding a ps saying we could go to church together.

I also understand what others are saying about not seeking signs or testing etc. But I think the thing that worries me and possibly Deb, I dont know, is that we have faith in God. We are sure of Jesus. But what we dont know, is which interpretation is correct.

Its one thing having faith in God, quite another thing sayibg that a particular church is correct. Every church believes its correct and all the followers believe their church is correct.

We have reservations about the faith but not about God. So we ask whether God can help clarify. Not to prove he's correct, but to prove the church is correct.

[sjdean]

ps im in birmingham

[its_Chet]

Hi,

Thanks Simon, its nice to know that im not the only one. I am in cannock in the midlands. As for the other posts i do agree, i am not meaning to test God i just want to make sure im doing His will rather than going off and doing what i want, ive been a little bit of a church hopper the past 2 years, and to be honest im not sure if thats because i havnt yet found the church that God wants me to be in or because im looking for somtying that doesnt exist.

If i had my own way and cared about no-one else i guess i would be down at my local Lds church on sunday and just keep going til i fet it was right (or wrong) for me. However this is a very big step for me to make, due to the fact i have been a baptist for 16 years, that my husband does not agree, annd that the pastor of my current church happens to be my father- in- law. I think it would seem selfish and hasty to just go off and "see what happens" although i know that if this is the church God wants me at things will work out.

If this is where God wants me then i just want to make sure before i cause upset in my family and make a stand for a church that im not sure of.

I hope this explains my situation a little better, im not trying to be demanding, i just dont want to flit from church to church any more, and the next time i want to make such a big step i want to make sure that its the right one.

deb

Aha! The plot thickens!:)

This changes things, the way I see it. While I know for a fact that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true Church of Jesus Christ (and anyone else can too if they want to know for themselves), and while I believe you shouldn't postpone joining yourself to it any longer than absolutely necessary, I can see complications to that that I didn't see before.

First, I know what a pain in-laws can be. Best not to invite any wrath if you don't have to. There's another thread around here somewhere about a guy who joined the Church and his wife didn't, and now there's a bit of tension between them. He says she's coming around, in that she is less hostile than she used to be about it, and the PrisonChaplain did a good job of giving us all an idea of what the wife's point of view must be.

So you've got a tightrope to walk here. I can see already that the Holy Spirit is testifying to you of the truth of the Gospel, and make no mistake, that should come first. But not yet having the gift of the Holy Spirit (and I can tell you as a convert what a TREMENDOUS difference that makes), joining the Church for you has GOT to be a little worrisome because you don't yet know that it is true, and most likely won't until after you've been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. For most people, it's a leap of faith. You jump in not knowing how you'll land, but trusting in God that you will land safely. We all do, of course, but going into it, you can't really tell how it will unfold. I had little to lose when I joined, but I was still a bit hesitant.

You've got bridges that may have to be burned, if you join the Church. Not because you want them burned, but because joining the Church has a way of making enemies for people in situations like yours. You won't be the one burning the bridges, but they will burn just the same. The question you have to ask yourself is whether or not it's worth it. I doubt you're going to know with the level of confidence I'd want in your situation until after you've gotten the gift of the Holy Spirit and had a few months to read scriptures, attend Church and General Conference, and pray. Doing all that without the gift of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as doing it when you do have the gift of the Holy Spirit. There will come a point where you feel you have to make the decision. I wouldn't rush it if I were you. I'd keep diligently and earnestly investigating the Church if I were you, but I wouldn't take that big step until you're prepared to accept the persecution you may face for doing so. When you feel strongly enough about the Church to do that is a decision you have to make yourself. You're not ready yet. You need more time.

I would recommend you continue to sincerely investigate the Church, and if your father in law gives you any grief, perhaps you might explain that you're only trying to learn more about the Church, and that you haven't made any commitments to it. We commonly have non members use our genealogical research centers with no strings attached. Visitors are welcome, no obligations. We encourage people to hear our message, and we go to great lengths to make it available, but we're not out to wreck your husband's home. Any way you can ease the tension would be helpful to your own situation. Not much more I can say other than this:

Do what you think is right. The Holy Spirit (aka your conscience) will guide you. Have the courage to follow Him (the Holy Spirit), and if you lack courage, pray for it. Your situation is not easy, but God will be there for you.

[sjdean]

hello chet, is it possible to get more of a testimony without fully committing? i mean, if im not sure and cant make that leap of faith, is there anything besides living the WoW and reading scripture that can help? is there something that would bring me closer? would attending church services help?

sorry to deb for jumping into the thread... sounds like we have similar issues so one of us will get the answer.