What would it take to shake my faith?

[prisonchaplain]

In my four years here I've seen many attempts by non-LDS to shake the faith of the church members here. Lately it's questions about archeology. Others question certain LDS texts. Then, of course, there are the doctrinal debates, the questions about whether LDS teaching or writings are compatible with the Bible.

So, I decided to put the shoe on the other foot. What would cause me to lose my faith in, say, speaking in tongues, or in the appropriateness of breaking off from the Roman Catholics, or even in Jesus himself? No easy answer comes. I'd dismiss most science arguments as bound to materialism, though some revelations may cause me to adjust interpretation. Doctrinal debates could have an effect, since my faith allows for various opinions on many matters of teaching. But, what could cause me to deny essential teachings or beliefs? I honest don't know. Perhaps an overwhelming spiritual experience that I had missed God's best truths? Maybe an angelic visitation of my own? Yeah, I'd say it would take a pretty direct revelation from God to bring about major change in my faith.

[jadams_4040]

In my four years here I've seen many attempts by non-LDS to shake the faith of the church members here. Lately it's questions about archeology. Others question certain LDS texts. Then, of course, there are the doctrinal debates, the questions about whether LDS teaching or writings are compatible with the Bible.

So, I decided to put the shoe on the other foot. What would cause me to lose my faith in, say, speaking in tongues, or in the appropriateness of breaking off from the Roman Catholics, or even in Jesus himself? No easy answer comes. I'd dismiss most science arguments as bound to materialism, though some revelations may cause me to adjust interpretation. Doctrinal debates could have an effect, since my faith allows for various opinions on many matters of teaching. But, what could cause me to deny essential teachings or beliefs? I honest don't know. Perhaps an overwhelming spiritual experience that I had missed God's best truths? Maybe an angelic visitation of my own? Yeah, I'd say it would take a pretty direct revelation from God to bring about major change in my faith.

Maybe receiving a confirmation of l.d.s vicarious temple work?:)

[Moksha]

Perhaps an overwhelming spiritual experience that I had missed God's best truths? Maybe an angelic visitation of my own?

1. A giant hand appearing from the clouds and its huge finger flicking you in the back of your head as you stand on a Seattle street corner.

2. When you start speaking in tongues, a powerful voice answering from on high and saying, "Would you please quit babbling!".

3. The Shroud of Turin suddenly appearing underneath your feet, whisking you away like on a magic carpet to the Cougareat of Brigham Young University, where you will be given some milk and possibly cookies.

[prisonchaplain]

1. A giant hand appearing from the clouds and its huge finger flicking you in the back of your head as you stand on a Seattle street corner.

That would be the city government trying to tax lattes at 10-cents a cup.

2. When you start speaking in tongues, a powerful voice answering from on high and saying, "Would you please quit babbling!".

That would be my wife reminding me that if I want a cup of coffee, the Bible says, "He Brews."

3. The Shroud of Turin suddenly appearing underneath your feet, whisking you away like on a magic carpet to the Cougareat of Brigham Young University, where you will be given some milk and possibly cookies.

And I thought some Hare Krishnas had kidnapped me and taken me to a strange section of the Airport where there were no coffee stands.

[bytebear]

One of the problems with shaking the faith of Christianity is that it also equally shakes the faith of LDS. After all, we share the same Biblical history. We could look at books like Misquoting Jesus, or lack of archaeological evidence of the great flood, or the lack of historical evidence of Moses. We could find discrepancies in the Gospels, or other Biblical errors. We could look at scientific assertions that near death experiences are just brain activity gone wild, or that speaking in tongues is just gibberish. There are a ton of things that are illogical about faith, but in the end, you must rely on your own beliefs and know that God has answers that man has not found yet.

The only difference between Biblical criticism and criticism of the LDS faith is time. We don't have affidavits from the neighbors of Peter. We aren't privy to the business dealings of James, John or Paul. We just have a lot more criticism of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young because we have far more records of them than we do of Biblical prophets.

Other issues stem from the fact that the LDS Church is a united church with a specific historical legacy. Christianity can dismiss its racist or violent past, for example, by simply saying, "that was other Christians who did that, and we have no historical connection to them." It's not really true, but it's an easy way to avoid historical criticism.

[john doe]

No LDS here want to shake your faith, PC. to paraphrase one of our recent prophets, we merely want to take the truth you already believe and add to it. We're not here to destroy faith in Christ, but to strengthen it.

[Gatorman]

*wonders if prisonchaplains TRUE objection the LDS faith is the lack of coffee...

[Snow]

I Yeah, I'd say it would take a pretty direct revelation from God to bring about major change in my faith.

Oh?

I'd say that you just can't envision or imagine very well.

If you found incontrovertible evidence that, say, Jesus didn't die on the cross and therefore did not resurrect, wouldn't that place an obstacle in your faith's path?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Snow

[bmy-]

Feeling like you're talking to yourself when praying shook mine pretty bad.

[Traveler]

I do not think that I am a very dramatic or complicated person. For me it would be a realization that there exist a people that are more committed and obedient to truth and the covenants of G-d. If there is something else that can prepare and produce a more “righteous” people, I would consider and investigate at the first opportunity.

It is the reason that I serve G-d – I consider that to be the best possibility – but if there was something better – I would switch.

The Traveler

[bmy-]

Thought I'd post this video as it's actually pretty funny.. (it's on subject)

YouTube - Godless Comedy from That Mitchell and Webb Look

[Maxel]

PC-

I don't know what it would take to shake your faith, but I get the feeling Satan will be doing his utmost in the coming years to shake everyone's...

I think your stance that it would take a "pretty direct revelation" is a wise one, and the only truly logical one to take once a person has faith that God responds to His children's needs and that earthly science, while wonderful and useful, is inadequate to explain the deeper mysteries of the universe.

[skippy740]

"Be careful what you wish for..."

[Snow]

I think your stance that it would take a "pretty direct revelation" is a wise one, and the only truly logical one to take once a person has faith that God responds to His children's needs and that earthly science, while wonderful and useful, is inadequate to explain the deeper mysteries of the universe.

You guys have zero imagination.

What if you saw a video, that was proved to be authentic, of the Quorum of the Twelve conspiring to hide evidence that incontrovertibly proved that Oliver Cowdery authored the Book of Mormon and then conspired with Joseph Smith to pass it off as authentic?

Wouldn't that shake your faith - at least your faith in LDS leadership and in the BoM?

[Maxel]

You guys have zero imagination.

What if you saw a video, that was proved to be authentic, of the Quorum of the Twelve conspiring to hide evidence that incontrovertibly proved that Oliver Cowdery authored the Book of Mormon and then conspired with Joseph Smith to pass it off as authentic?

Wouldn't that shake your faith - at least your faith in LDS leadership and in the BoM?

I would ask the Lord why the heck He told me the BoM was true and that I should follow the prophets.

Then I would cry, then begin to investigate the situation as thoroughly as I could.

I have to admit that if something as crazy as what you've suggested happened, my faith would be hurt quite a bit- but I think things have a way of resolving themselves over time.

[Snow]

Right - of course, at minimum, it would shake your faith. We are just so convinced that we are right that we can't picture that as a real possiblility.

Some people, not me, think that the evidence against the historicity if the BoM will one day soon be so convincing that we'll be forced to confront it and try to reconcile it the way that Jews and liberal Protestants have had to reconcile their faith with the realization that Bible is not literally and historically true - or at least accurate in many parts. Like I say, I am not one of those.

[Moksha]

Oh?

.

If you found incontrovertible evidence that, say, Jesus didn't die on the cross and therefore did not resurrect, wouldn't that place an obstacle in your faith's path?

Snow, have you considered ferverent Flat Earthers and Great Flooders? They still believe.

[Kawazu]

Snow, have you considered ferverent Flat Earthers and Great Flooders? They still believe.

The Flat Earth Society (.org)

[prisonchaplain]

No LDS here want to shake your faith, PC. to paraphrase one of our recent prophets, we merely want to take the truth you already believe and add to it. We're not here to destroy faith in Christ, but to strengthen it.

Actually, my aim is far broader. You have many who would want to undermine your faith--from agnostics/atheists who believe religion is potentially dangerous and anti-progressive, to Christian evangelicals who believe Joseph was not a prophet and want to win you back to the fold. So, I tried to put myself in your shoes, so to speak. Efforts to apostasize and de-convert religionists go back millenia. Chances are, most here would say confidently "Nothing would destroy my faith." So, my question was meant to get beyond that faith proclammation, and say, "Yes...but what might it take to at least cause some questioning and contemplation about the foundations?" And again, in my case, it would likely take some kind of revelation that I was convinced was from God--something along the lines of what Joseph Smith said he experienced.

[prisonchaplain]

*wonders if prisonchaplains TRUE objection the LDS faith is the lack of coffee...

I will confess to having joked that way. People would say, what's so wrong with the LDS, and I'd answer, "Any religion that prohibits coffee is a heresy!" Later I discovered C.S. Lewis feeling the same way about teetotalers...smart guy...when he wasn't sauced!

[prisonchaplain]

Oh?

I'd say that you just can't envision or imagine very well.

If you found incontrovertible evidence that, say, Jesus didn't die on the cross and therefore did not resurrect, wouldn't that place an obstacle in your faith's path?

Perhaps I can't imagine well. What would incontrovertible evidence look like? I could answer in the affirmative, but I do have a hard time imagining that. If historians concluded that Romans used stakes rather than crosses, such wouldn't phase me. Even trees. Now, if they found Jesus' body, and it was unquestionable...yeah, that would do it.

[prisonchaplain]

You guys have zero imagination.

What if you saw a video, that was proved to be authentic, of the Quorum of the Twelve conspiring to hide evidence that incontrovertibly proved that Oliver Cowdery authored the Book of Mormon and then conspired with Joseph Smith to pass it off as authentic?

Wouldn't that shake your faith - at least your faith in LDS leadership and in the BoM?

Maxel might end up in my church--you'd probably head back to Rome!

[beefche]

You guys have zero imagination.

What if you saw a video, that was proved to be authentic, of the Quorum of the Twelve conspiring to hide evidence that incontrovertibly proved that Oliver Cowdery authored the Book of Mormon and then conspired with Joseph Smith to pass it off as authentic?

Wouldn't that shake your faith - at least your faith in LDS leadership and in the BoM?

If we are talking about LDS faith, then I think I've seen people lose faith over insults by other members. Granted, some are grave indeed (molestation, swindling, etc), but ultimately it is the actions of a human that made them question the veracity of LDS doctrine.

I have thought of this many times, I really think for me to question the LDS faith, it would have to be something on the level that Snow proposed. Even then, it would have to be something so heinous (not the exact situation Snow provides, but more along the lines of abuse of individuals). I honestly don't care if the BoM is proven to be "false." I have received a witness and I cannot deny that it was from the Spirit. But if the whole 1st Pres and Quorum of the 12 begin to promote molestation of children, then I would be shaken indeed.

But I would be shaken in the LDS faith--not faith in Jesus Christ. I really don't know what would shake my faith in Him. Well, let me clarify. I question my faith in Him all the time. Meaning, I often don't trust Him when He says He will do something (don't we all? we think we don't but be honest--you thought He would give you children, or save your child or help you during that hard part and when He didn't you wondered why...why me type of questioning). But, my faith that He is real, that He is my Savior, that He is my God--I'm don't know what would shake that.

[beefche]

Perhaps I can't imagine well. What would incontrovertible evidence look like? I could answer in the affirmative, but I do have a hard time imagining that. If historians concluded that Romans used stakes rather than crosses, such wouldn't phase me. Even trees. Now, if they found Jesus' body, and it was unquestionable...yeah, that would do it.

PC, you wimp!

I really don't think if "they" conclusively confirmed that they found Jesus' body would I believe it. There are some things in this world that is known fact, but I'm not sure how it fits into God's Gospel plan--so I consider that "they" said it is fact, not necessarily God said it was fact. Perhaps that's naive and non-critical thinking, but it works for me.

[MarginOfError]

given the time that has elapsed since the major events of Christianity, I have a hard time imagining a scenario where evidence could be produced that was so convincing that I'd give up my faith. It's a bit of a cop out, but it was so long ago it could be extremely difficult to disprove. On the other hand, it was so long ago it's also nigh impossible to prove.

There are millions of scenarios, however, that I do know of that could shake my faith. For instance, getting to casual in my language and letting vulgarities creep in. And then perhaps the occasional profanity. Soon I find myself having to guard my tongue in church, which makes me uncomfortable there. Rather than give up my habit I avoid the situations where I have to watch my mouth...boom, I've given up my faith.

Just as it was doing such a small thing that healed King Namaan, it's going to be the small things that destroy us.