Why am i a liberal l.d.s?

[MrsAri]

Sorry, but I just don't understand how LDS...or any self-professed Christian...can support a party or candidate who advocates abortion; especially when the American people are put into a position of being required to fund abortion via their hard earned tax dollars. Regardless of Barrack Hussein Obama's declaration, America is a Christian nation. And Christians don't kill their babies.

[FunkyTown]

Sorry, but I just don't understand how LDS...or any self-professed Christian...can support a party or candidate who advocates abortion; especially when the American people are put into a position of being required to fund abortion via their hard earned tax dollars. Regardless of Barrack Hussein Obama's declaration, America is a Christian nation. And Christians don't kill their babies.

Do Christians kill their neighbors? Should Americans vote for a party that advocates a continuation of the war effort?

Do Christians kill sinners and criminals? Should Americans vote for a party that advocates the death penalty?

Both parties ignore the christian values that are uncomfortable to them or their constituents. Want to vote for a Christian party?

Start one. The current crop certainly aren't Christian.

[Palerider]

I don't know how any person who could vote for a politician that lies.....regardless of what party..

[MsQwerty]

Wow. No offense intended to Americans here, but the rest of the world is looking on and wondering why on earth so many of you have a problem with the idea that the necessities in life like food, shelter and medical care are basic human rights, not privileges in life. From the outside looking in, it appears that President Obama is working to ensure all Americans, regardless of their socio-economic status will get the health care they need. The rest of the western world have governments that provide health care for all citizens as equitable, charitable, compassionate and fair treatment for all - yet so many Americans have this deep-rooted, irrational response and cry "socialism" or "why should those poor people get MY money!" when any change is suggested.

In my country, we pay a once yearly Medicare levy of 1.5% of our income at tax time and that provides us with access to free public health care whenever we need it. In addition, we can also pay for private health insurance if we want to, so we can choose our own doctor and hospital. The system, like any other, has it's problems, but generally speaking no-one here is going to die because they can't afford to go to hospital. Last weekend my husband thought he was having a heart attack and after seeing his GP (at no charge), we went directly to the emergency room. He was immediately taken to a cubicle and assessed, heart monitors, ECG, X-ray (in case it was something else going on) and blood tests were all done. Because we were there at lunchtime, a nurse came by with a tray of food - soup (minestrone), sandwiches (ham and cheese), an apple and a cup of tea. We waited for the test results to come back, so all lab work was done while we waited. The cost? Absolutely nothing - since all but the poorest of Australians pay a Medicare Levy at tax time. The majority of people don't mind that the levy also provides the exact same care to the 'have-nots' of society because the point is, we all benefit from the same system, and who knows when one of us will be down on our luck and in need of free health care some time? We are by no means the wealthiest country in the world, so if we can afford to have a free public health system, then why can't the US do the same with all it's billions of dollars in revenue each year?

My husband, by the way is American. Since we moved here he has been astounded at the health care and other benefits people receive in Australia and believes the US would benefit greatly from a similar system. He was a dyed in the wool Republican when I first met him, but by the last election he was so sick of the Bush administration (and what he calls 'Republican paranoia') and moved to 'the dark side, Luke', and voted Democrat.

I suppose many people in the US do want reforms and changes in healthcare otherwise Obama would not have won the election. Why is it then that so many LDS are resistant to changes that will only benefit the whole of your society in the end? I'm not wanting to attack anyone here, I really am curious.

Edited September 18, 2009 by MsQwerty
typo...

[Palerider]

wow...I am leaving and not enough time to go into this one....I am sure others here will have plenty to say about that subject.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm glad your husband got good care, MsQwerty, but the fact is he was in a prospective life-threatening situation and were he in the US he would have gotten the exact same treatment (minus, perhaps, the lunch) regardless of his ability to pay. A more probative anecdote would be if you or your husband had gone seeking care for a non-life-threatening situation without the supplemental insurance that (per Wikipedia, anyways) nearly 43% of your countrymen feel compelled to purchase.

We Yanks are not living in a Monty Python movie, and we do not have people who come by every morning to scrape corpses off of emergency room doorsteps. Do we have problems? Absolutely. But we are not at "crisis stage", no matter what our Dear Leader tells you.

[BenRaines]

In the US it appears that so many forget that we do have Medicaid. Similar to Medicare but for those under 65. If you have no money, no insurance Medicaid covers your health care. If you have some money Medicaid covers part of your bills. You may not see the doctor you want to but you are attended to if you go to the hospital or service that is covered by Medicaid. Medicaid is state provided using state and federal dollars.

My son and his wife are students, no insurance, she is pregnant. All services are covered prenatal and post for her and the baby. Hmmm no insurance but covered. What a country.

Ben Raines

[MrsAri]

Do Christians kill their neighbors? Should Americans vote for a party that advocates a continuation of the war effort?

Do Christians kill sinners and criminals? Should Americans vote for a party that advocates the death penalty?

Both parties ignore the christian values that are uncomfortable to them or their constituents. Want to vote for a Christian party?

Start one. The current crop certainly aren't Christian.

Has, anytime in history, God commanded Christians to kill?

The war in heaven was fought over free agency. The war in heaven continues on the earth today, and we are actively engaged in the battle...whether or not we are taking part. 'Tis the war of right vs wrong; freedom vs slavery. Are you being neutralized in the battle?

Throughout The Book of Mormon, people were engaged in the continuation of this war. Would you say that General Moroni was not a Christian? Joseph Smith was head of the militia...was he not a Christian?

If you were a pacifist, I could understand not taking sides. But the line is drawn in the sand. And I know what side I'm fighting for.

[MrsAri]

I don't know how any person who could vote for a politician that lies.....regardless of what party..

I didn't vote for Obama.

Does anyone remember Gov. Mecham? The corrupt powers in this state conspired to have him impeached. End of story!

Edited September 18, 2009 by GrandmaAri

[bmy-]

Has, anytime in history, God commanded Christians to kill?

Are you kidding? Unless you're using some whacked out definition of 'Christian' it happens fairly often in the OT and in the Book of Mormon. I hope I do not need to post more verses.. one should be enough.

1 Nephi 4:12 "And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;"

Edited September 18, 2009 by bmy-

[bluedreams]

We Yanks are not living in a Monty Python movie, and we do not have people who come by every morning to scrape corpses off of emergency room doorsteps. Do we have problems? Absolutely. But we are not at "crisis stage", no matter what our Dear Leader tells you.

We're not in a crisis stage in that we haven't had a proverbial heart attack and flatlined yet. But we have experienced and test high for high blood pressure, cholesterol, bad life style, and some complaints of chest pains. In other words, where we're heading is definitely the wrong direction and will lead to true crisis.

As for why I'm a (moderately) liberal democrat leaning mormon is because it fits my views moreso than being republican ever can. Gay marriage and abortion just can't rile me as much as social disparities, health care, an unnecessary war, and the likes. The reason I am democrat is a mix of my own faith, things I've learned in college (I go to BYU....vaguely ironic at times when I sit and think about it) that have helped to flesh out my views, and traveling and coming to get to know other parts of the world.

I did vote for Obama and I'll probably do it again come 3 years from now, aside from him making a royal mistake of some sort.

Are you kidding? Unless you're using some whacked out definition of 'Christian' it happens fairly often in the OT and in the Book of Mormon. I hope I do not need to post more verses.. one should be enough

There is a difference to me of the killing by Cpt. Moroni and Nephi and what I've seen in the world right now. I honestly don't think most of whtat we've done in recent history can be compared to what they did. I'm not the biggest advocate for ending the death penalty, but at the same time there is no point for redemption in this system....there's also the problem of a number of the people on death row possibly being innocent. I do have a problem with the larger part of the justice system that is broken and feeds more social problems than it fixes. To me we are seeking a earthly sort of justice, forgetting that justice is not ours but God's. Ours is to find forgiveness. The Anti-Nephi-lehi story would seem to play out very differently if it occured in the world we've developed today.

On the larger scale of war, I do not think the Iraq war is a justifiable one. Was Saddam bad? Yes. This does not necessitate us going in there to take him out. It's not on the same regaurd of Nephi or Cpt Moroni where a direct attack was occuring for both. We're not the world police. And even if we were, we're not doing the greatest of job. What makes Saddam more special than the starving children and genocide in darfur, the human rights abuses in N. Korea, or the nameless other conflicts, injustices, corrupt governments, and outright autrocities occuring around the world that goes largely without our notice. Even Afghanistan I sometimes feel was only partially justified...though I think we should have gone to war, I question our motives. We went there not only to protect ourselves, but I sometimes think we also went in there for vengence.

With luv,

BD

[MrsAri]

Are you kidding? Unless you're using some whacked out definition of 'Christian' it happens fairly often in the OT and in the Book of Mormon. I hope I do not need to post more verses.. one should be enough.

1 Nephi 4:12 "And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;"

We're on the same side of this equation.

[talisyn]

In the US it appears that so many forget that we do have Medicaid. Similar to Medicare but for those under 65. If you have no money, no insurance Medicaid covers your health care. If you have some money Medicaid covers part of your bills. You may not see the doctor you want to but you are attended to if you go to the hospital or service that is covered by Medicaid. Medicaid is state provided using state and federal dollars.

My son and his wife are students, no insurance, she is pregnant. All services are covered prenatal and post for her and the baby. Hmmm no insurance but covered. What a country.

Ben Raines

Not entirely true. Just try to get medicaid in Idaho.

[Just_A_Guy]

Not entirely true. Just try to get medicaid in Idaho.

I agree that it's not easy to go through the hoops imposed by local and federal governments in order to get aid. A significant part of my pro bono practice is helping people seeking various state benefits navigate the bureaucracies involved.

But it's just plain wrong to act as though the programs aren't in place; and complaining about the massive red-tape involved only begs the question of how an even larger, more bloated federal program would be an improvement over the status quo.

[Gatorman]

I don't think ANY of us have suggested that it is not proper that we all have access to healthcare, etc. I think the issue is, based on our form of government and the laws and documents covering it, there are 2 problems.

1 - The FEDERAL government has no authority to do it. We did not grant it to them and for them to do it without authority is a usurpation of authority, something akin to tyranny.

2 - No government has the authority to FORCE us to have healthcare.

If the government were talking strictly about reform, IE - Changing things to make sure everyone could CHOOSE to have healthcare, we would not be arguing. So, should insurance companies be able to refuse to cover pre-existing conditions? Probably not. Should people be able to sue for ridiculous reasons and get unreasonable jury rewards? Probably not. Should the Federal government be so interfering in healthcare that prices are fixed in the market, hospitals are unable to cover costs, alternative treatments can't be considered, etc? Probably not.

Should the government be allowed to tell me I MUST have insurance? Not unless we are signing up for Satan's Plan. Should the government be able to FORCE me to give my income to cover my neighbor? Not unless we are signing up for Satan's Plan. Could the government choose to offer a program that we could voluntarily contribute to? Well, there is an idea to be considered. Frankly, I would not give money to the federal government to do it, but, that is because they have a track record of not spending money wisely. Perhaps, if instead of 20%+ of my paycheck going to the federal government for taxes, social security, and Medicare, I kept the majority of that, then I would be able to give more of my own. But, the government has decided that we cannot be trusted to do what is right and that we are responsible for ensuring that everyone is taken care of. Not the plan I signed up for in the preexistance. Not the plan I signed up for here in the United States.

[MrsAri]

I don't think ANY of us have suggested that it is not proper that we all have access to healthcare, etc. I think the issue is, based on our form of government and the laws and documents covering it, there are 2 problems.

1 - The FEDERAL government has no authority to do it. We did not grant it to them and for them to do it without authority is a usurpation of authority, something akin to tyranny.

2 - No government has the authority to FORCE us to have healthcare.

If the government were talking strictly about reform, IE - Changing things to make sure everyone could CHOOSE to have healthcare, we would not be arguing. So, should insurance companies be able to refuse to cover pre-existing conditions? Probably not. Should people be able to sue for ridiculous reasons and get unreasonable jury rewards? Probably not. Should the Federal government be so interfering in healthcare that prices are fixed in the market, hospitals are unable to cover costs, alternative treatments can't be considered, etc? Probably not.

Should the government be allowed to tell me I MUST have insurance? Not unless we are signing up for Satan's Plan. Should the government be able to FORCE me to give my income to cover my neighbor? Not unless we are signing up for Satan's Plan. Could the government choose to offer a program that we could voluntarily contribute to? Well, there is an idea to be considered. Frankly, I would not give money to the federal government to do it, but, that is because they have a track record of not spending money wisely. Perhaps, if instead of 20%+ of my paycheck going to the federal government for taxes, social security, and Medicare, I kept the majority of that, then I would be able to give more of my own. But, the government has decided that we cannot be trusted to do what is right and that we are responsible for ensuring that everyone is taken care of. Not the plan I signed up for in the preexistance. Not the plan I signed up for here in the United States.

Excellent!

And only 20%? Gee, we pay over 40%...self-employment taxes are the pits.

[Elphaba]

Not the plan I signed up for in the preexistance.

Well, I think I did sign up for this in the pre-existance as I have a vivid memory of singing Hosannas to Healthcare.

Elph

[Gatorman]

Well, I think I did sign up for this in the pre-existance as I have a vivid memory of singing Hosannas to Healthcare.

Elph

I am not suggesting that healthcare is a bad thing. I am suggesting the removal of choice is bad. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, I think I did sign up for this in the pre-existance as I have a vivid memory of singing Hosannas to Healthcare.

Elph

Yeah, but that was back when I was trying to talk you out of following Lucifer.

Don't tell me you've forgotten it all?

[Snow]

Wow. No offense intended to Americans here, but the rest of the world is looking on and wondering why on earth so many of you have a problem with the idea that the necessities in life like food, shelter and medical care are basic human rights, not privileges in life.

Would it be fair to say that you believe that if someone lacks food, shelter and medical care that they or their advocate (in this case, a government) has the basic human right to forcibly take it from someone else who has earned it and appropriate it for their own selves

[Moksha]

I am not suggesting that healthcare is a bad thing. I am suggesting the removal of choice is bad. :)

Watching your family members suffer for lack of health care is a choice experience.

[MrsAri]

Is watching one's family suffer because of health care rationing a "choice" (pun intended) experience?

What about all of the victims of abortion who didn't have a choice?

[Gatorman]

Watching your family members suffer for lack of health care is a choice experience.

I have stated there are places for improvement in our current healthcare system. But, I also firmly believe that 90% of the problems in our current healthcare system are due to government involvement. So, to lay it out...

1 - Should an insurance company be able to deny insurance based on pre existing existence? No. Why is this different in their choice of how they run their business? They have a choice. They can not practice this business.

2 - Should the government set the standard prices and practices for healthcare? No. But, that is how our pricing structure is built today, due to Medicare.

3 - Should a hospital be required to serve anyone who comes in?

4 - Should a person be required to have health insurance?

5 - Should I be forced to pay for health insurance for someone else who refuses to work to provide for themselves?

6 - Should I be forced to pay for health insurance for someone else who is truly unable to provide for themselves?

etc...etc...

[Elphaba]

Don't tell me you've forgotten it all?

Well, I'm here ain't I?

[MrsAri]

7. Should I be forced to pay for abortion?