Prophets and profits

[mandii]

Ok just to clarify, this is just something that I'm curious about having been raised Protestant and not completely understanding the voluntary church service thing fully. I am seriously considering joining the LDS church and the answer to this question, no matter what it is, will not sway my decision either way.

So I know that all church service is voluntary (bishopric, etc.). However, I wonder about the Prophet. His job within the Church is extremely important, and a full-time gig if I'm not mistaken. Does the Church pay him? Or is it like a Mission President type thing where they give you money for some living expenses but you have to fund the rest from your own personal savings?

Like I said it's just something I've wondered and couldn't find the info anywhere else. Being raised Protestant it's sometimes hard to wrap my head around people not being paid for church service, although I like the idea of it. To be honest, I wonder the same thing about the Pope...

[sixpacktr]

were you watching Miller last night on the Factor? He used that phrase...

[mandii]

Um no... dang I thought I was being all clever and original! FAIL. Lol.

[beefche]

I don't have any references and am not sure they actually exist about our prophet's income.

I have heard that he does receive a stipend--mainly for living expenses. I have heard that the Church owns a condo downtown SLC which is for the prophet's use when he is the prophet. I'm sure the Church pays for his travel and expenses related to that.

When looking at the biographies of prophet's, they were usually successful men and I would imagine they have retirement/pension income from their work.

[Norte70]

The brethren receive a living allowance, which is suppose to provide adequate support for their activities. Most have other incomes, however some of those from depress regions need the income to meet the requirements of their jobs.

I have come to learn there is a difference between the church and the gospel. The church is the business and support end for the gospel. Most of the time it fails those who most need support. Members have become converted to the church and not to the gospel, which is why when problems arise and the church fails to meet the needs, members lose.

[Just_A_Guy]

In times past, the LDS general authorities also sat on the boards of directors of church-owned businesses, which usually paid handsomely.

At this point, though, the Church has divested itself of most of its business holdings; and I think it was in the 70s or early 80s that the Church ended the practice of having the GAs act as directors of church-owned businesses.

From scuttlebutt I hear in various fora, the highest echelons of Church leadership receive more compensation than could really be dubbed "living expenses", but a lot less than their positions and experience would allow them to draw in the corporate world.

[Norte70]

Bottom line: The Church is a business as opposed to the Gospel as a life style.

[Vort]

I have come to learn there is a difference between the church and the gospel. The church is the business and support end for the gospel.

I have learned that this is a pernicious falsehood, though commonly believed among many otherwise faithful LDS Church members.

The Church is nothing less than the literal kingdom of God on earth. Surely no one would be so shallow as to believe the kingdom of God to constitute merely "the business and support end for the gospel."

Bottom line: The Church is a business as opposed to the Gospel as a life style.

Not so. The kingdom of God is not a "business". Without the Church, the gospel is not preached to the world. Today, you cannot have one without the other.

[Hemidakota]

Bottom line: The Church is a business as opposed to the Gospel as a life style.

Do you mind if I ask you, do you have membership with the church? Just curious....

[Hemidakota]

Ok just to clarify, this is just something that I'm curious about having been raised Protestant and not completely understanding the voluntary church service thing fully. I am seriously considering joining the LDS church and the answer to this question, no matter what it is, will not sway my decision either way.

So I know that all church service is voluntary (bishopric, etc.). However, I wonder about the Prophet. His job within the Church is extremely important, and a full-time gig if I'm not mistaken. Does the Church pay him? Or is it like a Mission President type thing where they give you money for some living expenses but you have to fund the rest from your own personal savings?

Like I said it's just something I've wondered and couldn't find the info anywhere else. Being raised Protestant it's sometimes hard to wrap my head around people not being paid for church service, although I like the idea of it. To be honest, I wonder the same thing about the Pope...

What is already spoken here, I hope you will find what you are looking.

[Norte70]

Hemidokota: Simply put, I lost my membership in the Church about a year ago. During my journey to return to the Church I’ve been enlightened in a number of aspects. Which have resulted in my current uncertainty if I actually desire to “have my blessings restored.” I have a long family history with the Church with one of my ancestors joining in 1832, another was in the first party into the Salt Lake Valley with Brigham. I have grandchildren who are seven generation members. Yes I do have a connection with the Church, having testified many times I believed the Church to be true. I had converted to the Church.

What I’ve come to realize however is what the Savior indicates in Mathew is true that we individually must work out our own salvation. I spent well over forty years struggling with carnal issues, seeking help from the Church and never receiving any life changing assistance. I was converted to something that does not actually function on the same level as does the Gospel. Activity in the Church is an occasional thing while activity in the gospel, on the other hand is a constant and growing thing; and I don’t know that activity in the Church has ever helped me grow. The purpose of the Church is to help save all the living and the dead through three essential missions: to preach the gospel, to perfect the Saints, and redeem the dead. Stephen Covey identified it plainly when he wrote the Church is the scaffolding that supports the Gospel. It is only in the last year that I have begun to perfect myself, without the aid of the Church. My paradigm has shifted, they may have thrown me out of the Church, but they cannot throw me out of the Gospel.

[Hemidakota]

For what it is worth, I understand your point and for me, I am been operating on auto pilot myself.

What I found very discouraging in the church, I have witnessed where members sought positions, which is no more than political gambit or to seek power vice in building the kingdom for our Savior. Or being in a position where ‘self interest’ was more important than what the Spirit would dictate. It can be a turn off for many if seen publicly. I once told my companion, after finally serving my time for a specific calling, I rather not hold any further callings in the church but rather move forward in being the best home teacher, attending classes in church, and build the kingdom for my beloved brother – Jesus Christ.

Our focus can change on circumstances or experiences witness, but it does not stop us from serving our Savior.

[Norte70]

My wife says I am more of an alturist now than I have ever been. I am learning the Savior did not act with the intention of being rewarded. When asked why he built an alter Adam replied he was told to do so, because it was an act of obedience, the right thing to do. I see that somewhere around Cain and Able that paradigmed shifted to the rewards system of blessings. What psychology identifies as classical or operant conditioning, and with we have found does not change behavior. Doing good/right because it is the right thing to do is not regularly taught in the church. "Do it and you'll get a blessing." That is not strong enough a reinforcer.

[prisonchaplain]

Norte, I'm not LDS...but I am pro-church. In the Pacific Northwest many folk say they love God but hate church. They can worship God themselves, study the Bible themselves, serve their neighbors without joining an artifical human organization. 1 John tells us that we cannot say we love God if we don't love each other. Hebrews tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. IMHO, it is a kind of pride that says I don't need Christ's community to follow Christ. We learn to submit, and to bare one another's burdens, when we live within church community. We learn the heartbreak of God at some people's hypocrisy, and to look beyond the obvious when someone we first judge to be insincere breaks through, and becomes powerful in the Gospel. God created us to need each other.

[Hemidakota]

My wife says I am more of an altruist now than I have ever been. I am learning the Savior did not act with the intention of being rewarded. When asked why he built an alter Adam replied he was told to do so, because it was an act of obedience, the right thing to do. I see that somewhere around Cain and Able that paradigm shifted to the rewards system of blessings. What psychology identifies as classical or operand conditioning, and with we have found does not change behavior. Doing good/right because it is the right thing to do is not regularly taught in the church. "Do it and you'll get a blessing." That is not strong enough reinforcer.

My thoughts concerning your Savior statement, was to please the FATHER and only sought to help glorify the FATHER. We are one step down in seeking to please the Savior and the FATHER, do our part in building the kingdom for them both.

Adding some further thought, the Celestial kingdom in its purity has a organization from top to bottom. Whether we call it a church or really doesn't matter. It is organized...

You can make a change in the church to your reference behavior seen in the church being taught to 'do it' [spencer Kimball] because it is right and do not wait for the blessing.

Do not let this be a distracter on what is needed for you regarding gospel saving ordinances, to be with GOD tomorrow. I am sure your experiences can leave a impression on our youth in being a better servant for the Master.

[Rico]

I don't have any references and am not sure they actually exist about our prophet's income.

I have heard that he does receive a stipend--mainly for living expenses. I have heard that the Church owns a condo downtown SLC which is for the prophet's use when he is the prophet. I'm sure the Church pays for his travel and expenses related to that.

When looking at the biographies of prophet's, they were usually successful men and I would imagine they have retirement/pension income from their work.

I assume the prophets also collect social security and medicare. If so, does that create an uneasy relationship whereby the leaders are collecting government benefits?

[beefche]

I'm not sure if they do have medicare. It seems in my discussions with people who work directly with the prophets indicate that the church has insurance that employees and others can participate in. Nothing definite was said, but I was under the impression that the prophet has private insurance.

I could be off my rocker on that one.

[Rico]

But what about social security?

[john doe]

I assume the prophets also collect social security and medicare. If so, does that create an uneasy relationship whereby the leaders are collecting government benefits?

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to that assumption. The church self-funds their own insurance companies, so I doubt they would have any need for medicare. As for social security, I would imagine that if they have no need for it they would refuse the benefit.

[jadams_4040]

Ok just to clarify, this is just something that I'm curious about having been raised Protestant and not completely understanding the voluntary church service thing fully. I am seriously considering joining the LDS church and the answer to this question, no matter what it is, will not sway my decision either way.

So I know that all church service is voluntary (bishopric, etc.). However, I wonder about the Prophet. His job within the Church is extremely important, and a full-time gig if I'm not mistaken. Does the Church pay him? Or is it like a Mission President type thing where they give you money for some living expenses but you have to fund the rest from your own personal savings?

Like I said it's just something I've wondered and couldn't find the info anywhere else. Being raised Protestant it's sometimes hard to wrap my head around people not being paid for church service, although I like the idea of it. To be honest, I wonder the same thing about the Pope...

if his personal retirement does not cover expenses {which are basic}. the church does; he does not sock away millions as do many other churchs leaders; and he does live in the church owned apartment for safety reasons; and he gets nothing financial to leave his posterity, property money e;t;c..; now this paticular president {Monson} spent his carrear working for church owned businesess, and i,m sure he gets retirement from that, {businesses} but not tithing funds.:)

[Norte70]

Social security is like any retirement account. If you have paid into it, or are otherwise qualified it's yours to draw. It, unlike welfare money has rec'd employee contributions and is an entitlement.

I do not want to give the impression the Church does not play a role in spiritual development, only that in so many case individuals become converted to the Church and not the Gospel. Hence when the Chruch fails them they have no basis upon which to fall back on. My position is just that, the Church failed to meet my needs and only after radical action have I come to believe I am on my own to obtain my salvation, just as the Savior points out in Mathew. I can find no reference which would indicate my saving ordinance have been voided when I was excommunicated, only those indicating seperation from the Church.

prisonchaplin: I have found my service to my fellow man has become more meaning and genuine since I don't have a reporting committement tied to it. I continue to attend church meetings for my wife's sake, and when my particular talents are requested by the Church I give (this contrary to my excommunication order of non participation) of my time. It has become very rewarding to give not based upon some precieved church requirement.

[pam]

if his personal retirement does not cover expenses {which are basic}. the church does; he does not sock away millions as do many other churchs leaders; and he does live in the church owned apartment for safety reasons; and he gets nothing financial to leave his posterity, property money e;t;c..; now this paticular president {Monson} spent his carrear working for church owned businesess, and i,m sure he gets retirement from that, {businesses} but not tithing funds.:)

Though I do understand President Monson has chosen to remain in his home rather than live in the apartment.

[Dravin]

I assume the prophets also collect social security and medicare. If so, does that create an uneasy relationship whereby the leaders are collecting government benefits?

Why would that be an uneasy relationship? If they paid into social security and Medicare with their taxes over the course of their working life why would it be bad for them to collect the benefits they paid into? Basically, if President Monson, qualified for and collected Social Security how is that any different than my grandpa doing so except that President Monson is a lot busier in his retirement than my grandpa is?

[Kawazu]

Howdy,

I think I agree with the points brought up by Norte, on this one--in that there is a difference between the Gospel of Christ and the Church membership attempting to follow it.

Regards,

Kawazu

[clark87]

Truth is, if you look at the Prophet and Apostles, most of them were already very rich before even being called to such positions. I would hope that the church pays for their traveling and whatnot - it would get really expensive for them if it was otherwise.

The prophet and apostles aren't doing it for money - they don't even have enough time to themselves to make the extra money worth it (I hear they get one month out of the year off, like in July).

As for Norte70's claim that the church is a business, I'd like to know how many bishops and others are getting paid, let alone getting paid enough for the services they do for the church. Unlike most other churches I know, almost everybody in the church works completely for free (with the few exceptions already mentioned above). Even the missionaries pay their own way.