Turn the other cheek?

[beefche]

Jesus was not a doormat. I think He was teaching us a principle of forgiveness as well as charity. I also think He does not expect us to completely ignore behavior or actions that deserve additional action.

I work in the insurance industry. A few years ago, a company (not mine, thankfully) had a procedure to basically pursue denial of claims on each claim. They kept track, provided incentives, and rewarded employees based on amount of denials. They were sued by individuals. It wasn't until several state Insurance Commissioners researched and demanded remuneration for the individuals and assessed a large fine as punitive action.

Part of the punishment was to provide the benefits to the individuals with interest as a way to offer for "pain/suffering." Because of this audit, this company and many other insurance companies changed procedures, training, and reporting to comply within the guidelines set forth.

I think that this company would not have changed anything had a real hit to the bottom line not been enacted. Should the individuals refused the additional money? Should the insurance company not assessed financial punishment?

When considering this scenario with the scripture quoted, I honestly do not think that Jesus meant to hand the money back to the company in addition to their bank account number. I think it means to forgive the company (and the employees involved) and let go of the bitterness.

As another example, I have a relative that is a drug addict. He has stolen from friends and family to continue his addiction. Should I then provide him with my purse? No, I don't think the Lord is telling me to give him my purse also. I can forgive him and provide other charitable acts without giving him access to my money/valuables. Until he has kicked that addiction, I do not feel obligated to give him free rein to my home. I can give to him in other ways as taught by the Lord. But to give him free access to valuables at this time, is not only detrimental to me (not being able to provide for my family) but also to him (temptation to steal and continue in his destructive behavior).

[livy111us]

Book of Mormon scholar Brant Gardner, gives an excellent, alternative explanation of turning the other. Listen to the first few minutes of this lecture:

The whole thing is amazing, but he answers your question in this portion.

[Moksha]

It seems that "pain and suffering" law suits would be against the gospel of Jesus Christ, am I over reading these commandments?

Going beyond rightful compensation could be thought of as seeking revenge as a monetary pound of flesh.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me throw out one other thought. We hold so high the value of temporal life and are willing to take people to court for a negligent death, like a doctor missing a diagnosis etc. How much more will our punishment be if we are part of spiritual death by negligence then? If one didn't ask a certain person passed in the street who was looking for an answer but because of negligence to pray or be in tune with the spirit, the promptings were missed. Or we fail to prepare for a mission because we slept through seminary class and when the opportunity came up focused on other things and thus, missed an opportunity to share the gospel with many. We would be negligent for contributing to spiritual death. What is of more value temporal death or spiritual death? This is why, in part, I think we need to be careful about judgments, especially of negligence, so we are not judged with the same judgment we have for others. All of our negligence will be known fully at judgment day then we may wish we weren't so concerned about negligence of others.

Jacob 1: 19

"19 And we did magnify our office unto the Lord, taking upon us the responsibility, answering the sins of the people upon our own heads if we did not teach them the word of God with all diligence; wherefore, by laboring with our might their blood might not come upon our garments; otherwise their blood would come upon our garments, and we would not be found spotless at the last day."

Mosiah 29:12 "Now it is better that a man should be judged of God than of man, for the judgments of God are always just, but the judgments of man are not always just."

[pam]

Is that not being judgmental of those who might take action against those for negligence? Extreme negligence that causes the death of someone is a criminal act. Even if only charged as a civil case. Proof has to be made and it is decided in a court of law. How is that being judgmental against someone then?

Sorry I can't just say let me turn the other way and let someone off the hook. That's what we have laws for. That's why there are procedures within companies set in place. That's why there are organizations that oversee to make sure that safety and health policies are being followed. Disregard by an organization for procedures and having that disregard at the cost of a life is outrageous.

Accidents I understand. They are accidents. Absolute negligence needs to have action taken.

Edited November 12, 2009 by pam

[Seminarysnoozer]

Is that not being judgmental of those who might take action against those for negligence? Extreme negligence that causes the death of someone is a criminal act. Even if only charged as a civil case. Proof has to be made and it is decided in a court of law. How is that being judgmental against someone then?

Sorry I can't just say let me turn the other way and let someone off the hook. That's what we have laws for. That's why there are procedures within companies set in place. That's why there are organizations that oversee to make sure that safety and health policies are being followed. Disregard by an organization for procedures and having that disregard at the cost of a life is outrageous.

Accidents I understand. They are accidents. Absolute negligence needs to have action taken.

So, you think the original scriptures I posted only refer to accidents?

[Hemidakota]

What does it mean to turn the other cheek in our day?

Matthew 5: 38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also."

And; Matthew 5: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

And 3 Nephi 13:15 “If ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trespasses”

I had a friend tell me she won a fairly big settlement in a law suit and the majority of it was for "pain and suffering." She received amounts beyond medical bills and destruction of her property even. This was several years ago and at the time I was her visiting teacher when she said this, I wanted to respond with those scriptures above but I held my tongue. I am thankful I didn't judge her as she became a good friend of mine, but it made me think of what I would do if faced with similar circumstances.

I, luckily, have never had to face that decision but I can see how it would be hard to not be angry in a law suit and ask for "pain and suffering." It seems that "pain and suffering" law suits would be against the gospel of Jesus Christ, am I over reading these commandments? I would think too, a Christian lawyer would not want to participate in such law suits involving pain and suffering either. Maybe you could say the same about starting any law suit, but at a minimum those that would require payment for "pain and suffering" should be avoided. I believe in upholding the laws of the land and the state charging criminals, but "going after someone" in court seems against these principles.

Many times in the past, I had ample opportunity by law to sue the pants of those who done me wrong or create a medical problem years later. We need the Spirit in guiding us in doing what is the ‘will’ of the Master.

Here is turning the other cheek means to me, if it is not medically used to correct a wrong done by the party or loosing a life by another, which includes lively hood expense, allow the Lord to apply justice and mercy if the person is repentable. I have learned, it is not our will should be applied but the Saviors will.

[Traveler]

There are scriptures about this... the first one that comes to mind is found in Matthew

Matt. 5: 41

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Also,

Matt. 5: 25

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

3 Ne. 12: 25

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

There is more in the D&C but I can't remember the passages right off.

More about avoiding lawyers and judges.

My personal belief is that we should avoid lawsuits. However, there are times when they are thrust upon us. When that happens we have to play in the dirt to protect ourselves and those we love. Its not fun. Its not good. But I do know from experience that with the help of the Lord outcomes can be for the best.

Sometimes compensation for pain and suffering is appropriate and sometimes its not. The only time I think compensation for pain and suffering is appropriate is when the person is permanently injured in a way that will require money to take care of them. Otherwise, pain and suffering settlements are just taking advantage of the system.

My two cents....

EDIT: I lost a son at age 21 to a car accident where the man who drove a motorhome, over the little hatchback honda the kids were in, was at fault. The parents of the other kid that died were very vindictive. They wanted everything the man owned. They did internet searches for all his assets. They hired an attorney immediately. My husband and I took another approach. We let the atonement work. We're not saints. We did end up having to hire an attorney because both young men left a child behind and there were Insurance settlements to be determined. I wish it didn't have to come to all that. We realized forgiveness would heal better than retribution or compensation for pain and suffering. Nothing would bring our son back or make anything better. (And I didn't want him to have to come back and struggle in this life.....long story).

I'm so glad we took the road we did. Its been 10 years today and we're at peace. The other parenst are still struggling and are very angry. Because of their bitterness they refused to let the friends come to the funeral. We had the opposite response. They were all there... all their friends, even friends that would have only gone to the other funeral if given a choice. And they stayed.... for the family prayer, for the family dinner, etc. During all that heartache and turmoil the gospel was taught to some very lost kids. I'm so thankful for a Heavenly Father who loves us all. I'm thankful for Christ's atonement. I know that when we make the decision to act as Christ would, then everything turns out as it should.

Interesting post. Let me tell a little bit about my father. He was a very wonderful and successful man by any account. In his retirement he took up skiing, became completive, and became the #1 over 65 skiers in the USA – he came out of nowhere and beat former Olympians and professionals. He was also an accomplished artist and donated his time to paint scenery for a low budget local drama event. On his way to paint the scenery a 16 year old boy that had just received a brand new 5.0 Mustang for his birthday. The boy ran a stop sign at over twice the speed limit and hit my father’s car on the driver’s side. It was the boy’s third accident with the car in the one week he had it since his birthday.

My father had a severe concussion and amnesia but did recover somewhat after several weeks in the hospital. He suffered dizzy spells and a few years later died of complications. He refused to bring any law suit to cover expenses. The insurance company sued for their costs in covering his claims. He never repaired or replaced his totaled car. He was unable to ski competitively again though he did try. He soon required constant care and was unable to function on his own. But his mind remained keen. When he passed the world lost the greatest man I have ever known. The boy that caused his injuries took a few years to find himself but has become a good person. He might not have found a better way to live had my father not only forgiven him but demanded that all that love him also honor him by forgiving the boy.

Great and unusual people do great and unusual things and influence everyone that knows them to do great and unusual things. And Yes, Jesus did know what he was talking about when he said to turn the other cheek.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting post. Let me tell a little bit about my father. He was a very wonderful and successful man by any account. In his retirement he took up skiing, became completive, and became the #1 over 65 skiers in the USA – he came out of nowhere and beat former Olympians and professionals. He was also an accomplished artist and donated his time to paint scenery for a low budget local drama event. On his way to paint the scenery a 16 year old boy that had just received a brand new 5.0 Mustang for his birthday. The boy ran a stop sign at over twice the speed limit and hit my father’s car on the driver’s side. It was the boy’s third accident with the car in the one week he had it since his birthday.

My father had a severe concussion and amnesia but did recover somewhat after several weeks in the hospital. He suffered dizzy spells and a few years later died of complications. He refused to bring any law suit to cover expenses. The insurance company sued for their costs in covering his claims. He never repaired or replaced his totaled car. He was unable to ski competitively again though he did try. He soon required constant care and was unable to function on his own. But his mind remained keen. When he passed the world lost the greatest man I have ever known. The boy that caused his injuries took a few years to find himself but has become a good person. He might not have found a better way to live had my father not only forgiven him but demanded that all that love him also honor him by forgiving the boy.

Great and unusual people do great and unusual things and influence everyone that knows them to do great and unusual things. And Yes, Jesus did know what he was talking about when he said to turn the other cheek.

The Traveler

Thanks, your father is an amazing example. I think he is further progressed than most people in this world.

[Generally_Me]

I think it could have to do with laws of the land. It was legal for a Roman to require someone to carry a burden for a mile. It was legal for a Roman to take a coat from a Jew. Some examples:

Now, it is legal for the government to tax our income before we even receive that income. To follow Jesus' teaching to the letter, we then need to donate an equal amount to government programs, giving them our cloak along with our coats.

It is not legal (in the US) for someone to drive a car without insurance and drunk, and take the life of a provider. IMO, it is not required by Jesus for the family to starve themselves and lose their home because the father was killed and the driver was uninsured. The family, in taking the driver to court, could request court-ordered alcohol treatment as part of the settlement (this may be only in certain states), and help to save that person from him/herself.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think it could have to do with laws of the land. It was legal for a Roman to require someone to carry a burden for a mile. It was legal for a Roman to take a coat from a Jew. Some examples:

Now, it is legal for the government to tax our income before we even receive that income. To follow Jesus' teaching to the letter, we then need to donate an equal amount to government programs, giving them our cloak along with our coats.

It is not legal (in the US) for someone to drive a car without insurance and drunk, and take the life of a provider. IMO, it is not required by Jesus for the family to starve themselves and lose their home because the father was killed and the driver was uninsured. The family, in taking the driver to court, could request court-ordered alcohol treatment as part of the settlement (this may be only in certain states), and help to save that person from him/herself.

That is fine for the coat scripture I suppose, but what about forgive men their trespasses. I will only forgive after I get paid? Is restitution required for forgiveness? .... I will only forgive if that person makes amends .... is that really Christlike?

What does forgive mean? that the person owes you nothing right?

[pam]

Seminary I sent you a pm.

[prisonchaplain]

That is fine for the coat scripture I suppose, but what about forgive men their trespasses. I will only forgive after I get paid? Is restitution required for forgiveness? .... I will only forgive if that person makes amends .... is that really Christlike?

What does forgive mean? that the person owes you nothing right?

I'm gonna sound LDS in saying this, but some of these matters require the leading of the Holy Spirit. Traveler's dad was a powerful example. His conviction was sure, and he followed it to the end. It may have cost him months or years of better physical condition. But, in the end, he acted by faith, and the culprit appears to have benefited.

It's ironic that the same LDS folk who tell me that faith without works is dead, insist that forgiveness must be given with not expectation of works, or even much remorse, apparently. Nevertheless, I agree--given how I understand forgiveness. It is not a simple dismissal of all recourse. Rather, I give my bitterness, my right to personal grudge and unforgiveness, to God. I put the culprit in God's hands. S/he owes me nothing, for the matter is no longer mine.

None of that precludes prosecution by society for a crime commited (including negligence). Likewise, society's legal system may determine that I have "pain and suffering" compensation due. My acceptance of that judgment doesn't negate my forgiveness.

IMHO, what Paul had in mind with his discouragement of lawsuits, was Christian brothers and sisters going to pagan societies courts and fighting out their minor battles in public, bringing reproach upon the Christian community. The counsel we get is...just give in. They want your $20, give 'em $30.

Now, they come after the house that protects your family, and shelters it? Romans 13 tells me God's provided government to keep order. Part of that is protecting good people from bad people, workers from thieves, etc.

It dawned on me that the General Superintendant (our version of President) of my fellowship is also a lawyer. Perhaps he had something to say on this. And, well...he did: Christians and Lawsuits

Edited November 13, 2009 by prisonchaplain
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[Seminarysnoozer]

I want to make it clear, my reason to post this question and ask about perspectives on this topic was not to condemn or criticize anybody. I admit that I am quick to be angry, quick to fight back and protect my own and so this probably is why the topic hits home, I know its something I have to work on. I think society makes it even harder. It would be nice if our judges were like Mosiah or Alma the younger. As our laws and leaders pull further away from the laws of God I think the more confusing it is to know what to do in these situations. In any given case we have to keep an open mind, because we don't know all the details of the case or the minds of those involved. I think it is a good goal to approach any disagreement with a peacemaker attitude and full of love and kindness even to our enemies. At least, that is my goal.

Thanks for your responses.

[Justice]

It's ironic that the same LDS folk who tell me that faith without works is dead, insist that forgiveness must be given with not expectation of works, or even much remorse, apparently.

I think forgiving someone without expectation of anything from them is a work. That the other person does not apologize or seek to recompense makes it that much harder of a work.

These works we refer to are always a sacrifice to ourselves for the betterment of another. Oddly enough, one who sacrifices does not consider it a sacrifice, and is only concerned about helping others.

[Moksha]

Rather, I give my bitterness, my right to personal grudge and unforgiveness, to God. I put the culprit in God's hands. S/he owes me nothing, for the matter is no longer mine.

I suspect the Heavenly Host in the kitchen will quickly put this bitter unforgiveness in the waste disposal.

:)

[prisonchaplain]

So, just who is forgivenesss for? Who does it benefit? And especially, who is it for when the culprit is unrepentent?

[Connie]

One of my absolute most favorite talks on forgiveness.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Healing Power of Forgiveness

[Moksha]

So, just who is forgivenesss for? Who does it benefit? And especially, who is it for when the culprit is unrepentent?

We have no power over others ability to forgive. Maybe whoever is bothered by dwelling repeatedly on anger is the person helped most by forgiving and letting go of anger.

The Atonement served as a supreme example of forgivness and grace. The sins of Man are forgiven by God. We need to accept this Divine forgiveness and in return forgive those trespasses that are made against us.

Anger is such a drain. It saps so much out of us.

[Justice]

So, just who is forgivenesss for? Who does it benefit? And especially, who is it for when the culprit is unrepentent?

When we forgive others it is for us. It prevents us from having hate in our spirit and allows us to love our fellow man. It alos prevents us from being hypocrites, since we are in need of forgiveness ourselves.

When God forgives us it is for us.

It makes absolutely no difference to another person whether we forgive them or not. Well, it doesn't make an eternal difference; we don't have the abilitiy to excuse them from any wrong they have done, or to answer to them for justice. The only possible thing it can do for another when we forgive them is perhaps help them to feel better.