What to do when you question a book of scripture?

[GreatFamily]

I am a memeber for 15 plus years. I have served a mission. But recently I was asked a question about Kolob that has completely changed my understanding of the Pearl of Great Price. For the first time I have doubts about the book of Abraham. Has anyone else gone throught this?

[pam]

Sorry I can't say that I have. Could you explain more? What has caused the doubts?

[Palerider]

check out this link...

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

[jadams_4040]

I am a memeber for 15 plus years. I have served a mission. But recently I was asked a question about Kolob that has completely changed my understanding of the Pearl of Great Price. For the first time I have doubts about the book of Abraham. Has anyone else gone throught this?

well lets put kolob in this context;; the ancient egyptions were understanding of the planets very much the same as the boa has it, which i found extremely intresting; there have been a number of ancient writings discovered since the b.o,a was produced that substantiate kolob almost to a tee.:) {no i canott refferance at this time w/out searching, but they are there for you to find if you want to spend the effort}.

[bytor2112]

Some good info on B.O.A.

[NeuroTypical]

I have doubts about the book of Abraham. Has anyone else gone throught this?

As I encounter critisisms of my church and faith that seem to 'stick', I first as myself a question. Is it a valid criticism against my church and faith, or is it just a valid criticism against a belief I have that isn't really based on truth? I had many of them - beliefs I had sort of 'picked up along the way' that weren't really based on anything.

In other words, if you can't explain why you believe what you believe, you're subject to believing all sorts of goofy things. And when someone comes by and points out how goofy they are, you get stuck.

So, why don't you share what you've heard about Kolob that is causing you grief?

LM

[Drac]

Every once in a while I have read something that has made me question my faith, but instead of focusing on what I have read I dive into the scriptures and gospel teachings on the subject and always get things cleared up. I haven't found any anti material that hasn't already been presented before, so there is usually plenty of information clarifying the matter. Fortunately I come away with a strengthened testimony and a better understanding of the subject.

[RipplecutBuddha]

The scriptures have never been intended to be used as 100% scientifically accurate explanations for the universe around us. I have had my own bouts with the BoA, however I still stand by it as completly valid scripture, and pure doctrines from God.

Look at it this way; We are in the 21st century reading a document that was translated in the 18th century from an original document that was written several centuries before Christ was born. Scientific method and understanding of men in general has changed greatly in that time.

God speaks to us according to our own understanding, according to our capacity for truth. The BoA was a revelation to Abraham that was to be given to the Egyptians. As such, the truths were given in a manner they could understand and comprehend. The BoA was not written to us specifically, so of course there will be difficulty in making full sense of it when attempting to apply modern scientific thought to it.

By contrast, look at the BoM, a text that was written specifically for us. The message and lessons presented in that book are very clear and easy to see to us, because God told Mormon and Moroni to write it to us specifically. They even saw us in our element. God showed Mormon and Moroni who they were writing the book for.

As for understanding the BoA...prayer goes a long way, but also try to put out of your mind the habit of attempting to match it up to modern scientific thought. It's not what the revelations were given for.

[deseretgov]

What was the question about Kolob?

[Maya]

Problem is that we dont NEED to understans EVERYTHING. That si why we dont have answers to everything. Even though we have a prophet it does not mean he is a complete Encycolbedia of Gods doctorine. God ahs not revieled to us all yet.

But if you have a need to know it ... read and pray and you will be answered, but you have to take an answer like... sorry wont tell at this moment .... God dont have to tell us anything, we cant demand Him to do that.

One thing is up to you and THIS is YOUR choise: IS this question so important, that even though it is only a few verses in the scriptures and hardly ever talked about, as there is not yet enough given knoledge about it, IS that enough for you to throw in trash what you believe(d) was truth, your faith... ALL the 99% of the rest of it?

One thing anyone in that situation has to be aware of is the negativity ... if you allow that to lead yourself it will lead yopu out. DONT give room to the worlds nevativity!

[mnn727]

You don't have doubts about any other book of scripture? my gosh, I do all the time, but scripture is not inerrant, it was not written or even dictated by God, it was written by men, good inspired men hopefully, but they brought their own: culture, beliefs, prejudices and world view into their writtings. The trick is to not sweat the small stuff, but look to what you can learn from scripture that will bring you closer to God and don't worry whether its 100% historically or scientifically accurate.

[rameumptom]

If you have questions concerning the Book of Abraham, I suggest you ask specific ones here. Then, we'll get Kerry Shirts to answer them. He's our resident BoA expert.

[mnn727]

SO GreatFamily, you ever going to comment or answer the questions we asked? or were you just a drive by?

[GreatFamily]

ok...internet server had a human disconnect it. He cut the wrong wire....ugh!

I was asked about the idea that we would inherit our own planet...that being called Kolob. I did reseach it on the LDS website, old (very,very old Ensigns), and found very little about Kolob. The only place I found any info was in Mormon Doctrine. I just want to understand the concept. I don't need a long disortation on it. Just the basics.

Then it led to other questions like...why didn't I learn about it in Institute, or in Sunday School. We didn't even "touch" on it in class.

It just left me scratching my head....

[Drac]

I'm surprised you never learned about Kolob in Institute, Seminary, etc. The institute's Pearl of Great Price student manual has a lot of good information about Kolob. Abraham 3:1 - 17 - The Lord Showed Abraham the Stars As the guide shows it comes from Abraham chapter 3. Kolob is not a planet, it is a star.

Here is another interesting article about Kolob and the idea of other worlds. LDS.org - New Era Article - People on Other Worlds

Have you sung the song, If you could hie to Kolob in church before? Gorgeous hymn.

Have you gone through the temple? Much insight to this topic in the temple as well.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Drac

[bmy-]

I was asked about the idea that we would inherit our own planet...that being called Kolob. I did reseach it on the LDS website, old (very,very old Ensigns), and found very little about Kolob. The only place I found any info was in Mormon Doctrine. I just want to understand the concept. I don't need a long disortation on it. Just the basics.

Then it led to other questions like...why didn't I learn about it in Institute, or in Sunday School. We didn't even "touch" on it in class.

It just left me scratching my head....

I'm a bit confused to where the issue is here.. Kolob is a star, not a planet. There are a ton of things you did not learn about in institute, etc. The reasoning behind that.. besides the 'milk before meat' idea.. is that people cannot teach what they do not understand.

If we aren't certain.. it should not be presented as true in a classroom setting. Unfortunately we miss out on lots of great discussions and topics that can really help people out sometimes.. (and also mess them up)

I personally suggest that you question away. Dig and dig and dig.. it will either reaffirm your belief or destroy it. If it's true it should stand the test. If you do take my advice.. make sure you dig in the right places and to dig evenly (fairly). I don't think you'll be dissapointed.

Edited February 5, 2010 by bmy-

[pam]

I like the statement that President Uchtdorf's son Guido made about his father.

In counseling with his family, President Uchtdorf has always stressed fundamental principles. As Guido explained, “Father teaches of the blessings that come from prayer, scripture study, obedience to the commandments, and a positive attitude. These things are much more important to him than to wonder where Kolob is located.”

[WillowTheWhisp]

I was asked about the idea that we would inherit our own planet...that being called Kolob.

Where did the questioner get that information from? It's a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

Let me clear up what is true and what is false on that statement for starters.

1. We have the potential to 'inherit' our own planet. Not all of us will automatically achieve that level of glory.

2. Whatever our own individual planet will be called (it may even be a whole solar system) may very well be up to us. We may have the opportunity to name it just as explorers on earth named newly discovered lands.

3. We may decide to call it Kolob but that would be a dumb idea as there already is a Kolob. Would you name a newly discovered planet in our solar system 'Earth'? It would get a bit confusing wouln't it? If we had countless solar systems all called Kolob how would we know which was which?

4. Kolob is not a planet. It's a star. The Kolob solar system is where Heavenly Father lives.

5. There is nothing hidden or secret about this information. It's right there in the scriptures and the hymn book, but not much is taught about it for a couple of reasons:

a) We don't actually know a great deal more about it other than what I have just said and

b) It doesn't really pertain to our salvation. There are a lot more things we need to learn and follow which arefar more important for our present and future well being so we concentrate on those.

I have a brilliant little book called 'The Kolob Theorem' which is challenging to read if you want to stretch your brain.

Also an interesting thought - in ancient times men tried to build a tower to reach God 'up in the sky' - now we send rockets out into space which can travel for thousands of light years and yet we are probably no nearer reaching Kolob than they were.

[Jamie123]

Kolob is not a planet. It's a star. The Kolob solar system is where Heavenly Father lives.

Do you really think Abraham have understood the difference between "star" and "planet" as we understand these words today? Yes...I'm sure God understood, but I seriously doubt He'd have burdened poor Abraham (with his Bronze Age understanding of astronomy) with such niceties.

The modern word "planet" comes from the Greek "planetos"="wanderer". To the ancients a planet was exactly that: A star that wandered through the sky. The idea of stars being at the centre of planetary systems would have been undreamed of back then.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Jamie123

[mnn727]

Do you really think Abraham have understood the difference between "star" and "planet" as we understand these words today? .

Just because they lived before us, does not mean they were stupid. I bet even a caveman would know the difference, let alone someone God was teaching.

-----

To answer the OP's question, we know a little about Kolob and a little about what it means 'to inherit all things' -- everything else is speculation.

I have never sat in any class that that taught anything about 'getting our own planet' and I've been in the church longer that you stated you were in the opening post.

Most Mormons figure that when they are ready God will teach them what is necessary -- and for the advanced stuff for most of us thats not in this life.

Learn of Christ, Follow Christ, try to emulate what He did, life your life the best you can, be good, serve others, when you are ready to learn more God will teach you.

Edited February 5, 2010 by mnn727

[Jamie123]

Just because they lived before us, does not mean they were stupid. I bet even a caveman would know the difference...

I didn't say they were stupid, but none of us can work beyond the information we have. It took many hundreds of years, and the accumulated reasoning of many minds to achieve the scientific understanding we have today. Yes they would have understood there was a difference, but if you'd asked them to explain they'd it have said something like "stars are fixed, planets move".

let alone someone God was teaching.

You may have a point there: God might (for all I know) sometimes impart scientific knowledge that human scientists only "discover" years later. Isaac Newton for instance believed that Moses understood the heliocentric theory - though I think his evidence of this was a bit tenuous. (Newton had some funny ideas.)

But let's consider this: (i) If Kolob is the name of a planet then it is an extrasolar planet orbiting another sun. (ii) It would therefore have a fixed position in our night's sky. (iii) In Abraham's day, the only known distinction between a star and a planet was that a planet moves (relative to the sphere of fixed stars) and a star doesn't. (iv) Therefore Kolob - even if it is a planet - would (in the language of that time) have been classified as a star.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Jamie123

[WillowTheWhisp]

But didn't ancient people believe stars (the constellations) moved and even that the sun revolved around the earth?

[Jamie123]

But didn't ancient people believe stars (the constellations) moved and even that the sun revolved around the earth?

You're quite right. When I said "fixed" and "moving" I meant relative to the celestial sphere (the sphere of fixed stars), not relative to the Earth. Before Copernicus the prevailing view was that the entire sky rotated around the Earth. The planets - and the Sun was considered a planet (and still is by astrologers) - were those points of light which moved relative to this general rotation.

If you're interested in this sort of stuff, an excellent book to read is The Fabric of the Heavens by Stephen Toulmin and June Goodfield (Amazon.com: The Fabric of the Heavens: The Development of Astronomy and Dynamics (9780226808482): Stephen Toulmin, June Goodfield: Books).

[Finrock]

Hello Jamie123. It is a pleasure to meet you! :)

I didn't say they were stupid, but none of us can work beyond the information we have. It took many hundreds of years, and the accumulated reasoning of many minds to achieve the scientific understanding we have today. Yes they would have understood there was a difference, but if you'd asked them to explain they'd it have said something like "stars are fixed, planets move".

You may have a point there: God might (for all I know) sometimes impart scientific knowledge that human scientists only "discover" years later. Isaac Newton for instance believed that Moses understood the heliocentric theory - though I think his evidence of this was a bit tenuous. (Newton had some funny ideas.)

But let's consider this: (i) If Kolob is the name of a planet then it is an extrasolar planet orbiting another sun. (ii) It would therefore have a fixed position in our night's sky. (iii) In Abraham's day, the only known distinction between a star and a planet was that a planet moves (relative to the sphere of fixed stars) and a star doesn't. (iv) Therefore Kolob - even if it is a planet - would (in the language of that time) have been classified as a star.

Your assumptions are based on scientific assumptions on what they believe people understood back in the olden days. For instance just recently archeologist found bones that had clearly been amputated in which "cientists found that a remarkable degree of medical knowledge was used to remove the left forearm of an elderly man about 6,900 years ago..." (Source). So, my point being that we often underestimate the knowledge and intelligence of people who lived thousands of years ago supposing that they did not know or recognize scientific facts that we now do. Therefore it is merely a personal speculation to assert that Abraham was using the term "star" generically instead of in a specific way to designate what we now understand a star to be.

Regards,

Finrock

[wbrisett]

Where did the questioner get that information from? It's a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

Let me clear up what is true and what is false on that statement for starters.

1. We have the potential to 'inherit' our own planet. Not all of us will automatically achieve that level of glory.

I'm a bit naive on this topic, and have never fully understood the BoA. However, wouldn't this make us all gods? Or is the LDS theology that we would simply be the gardeners of the planets?