mary magdalene

[Elgama]

The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene

this is the source used to suggest there was more to their relationship. Personally I hope the Saviour did marry and have a successful support there

[mnn727]

He didn't need to be married during His time here to be exalted.

Correct, He was already exalted, in other words, according to LDS beliefs if you apply them consistantly, He must have already been married to be exalted BEFORE He became Earths Savior.

Think about it, if you apply our beliefs logically and consistantly:

To become exalted you must be sealed eternally to a spouse

To become a God you must be exalted

Jesus was Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament before He was born in Bethleham

Ipso facto: Jesus must have been Married before Old Testament times

Mary Magdalene was not the prostitute, its a myth started in the RCC centuries ago and since denounced by them, but picked up and used by the play and movie: Jesus Christ Superstar

Edited April 18, 2010 by mnn727

[Saturnfulcrum]

too bad there are 10 pages missing (including what the savior said to the disciples AND what he said to mary about her vision.) Was the story about the soul even connected to her vision or was it something else? lol we have no idea.

Although reading what's still there in the gospel of mary, I really didn't see how it points to her and the Savior being anything more than really good friends or close like brother and sister...but I might just be a skeptic.

[marts1]

Correct, He was already exalted, in other words, according to LDS beliefs if you apply them consistantly, He must have already been married to be exalted BEFORE He became Earths Savior.

Think about it, if you apply our beliefs logically and consistantly:

To become exalted you must be sealed eternally to a spouse

To become a God you must be exalted

Jesus was Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament before He was born in Bethleham

Ipso facto: Jesus must have been Married before Old Testament times

Mary Magdalene was not the prostitute, its a myth started in the RCC centuries ago and since denounced by them, but picked up and used by the play and movie: Jesus Christ Superstar

Interesting, but can you be exalted without a body of flesh and bone?

[Justice]

Not true. It was the norm, but not prerequisite to be married at a certain age. In fact, one of the greatest Jewish preachers of the early 2nd century AD was a bachelor.

Yes, but they had no temple. When they had a temple it WAS required they be married to teach in the tmeple.

Jesus taught in the temple.

There are many other evidences of Jesus being married in the New Testamet. Some are fairly obvious and a study of Jewish customs isn't needed. Other evidences require an understanding of Jewish law and customs.

I believe the wedding feast described where Jesus turned water into wine was his very own wedding. As I mentioned, some of the reasons I believe this are because a Jewish friend once pointed out many of the traditions in the story, and others are right there in the story itself.

Read the story and pay attention to the ruler or governor of the feast (probably the local Rabbi). Pay close attention to who gives him the wine and who he goes to in order to find out where it came from.

[Moksha]

The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene

this is the source used to suggest there was more to their relationship. Personally I hope the Saviour did marry and have a successful support there

Additionally, Mary Madalene should be regarded as an Apostle. She after all was a disciple of Christ, following Him and his path and hearing the words of Jesus directly. As you point out she was close to Jesus, as in anointing his feet with oil and tickling them with her hair. She was apparently the most concerned about Jesus, going to his tomb to care and mourn for him. Too bad her part was mostly written out of the script afterward.

[Elgama]

Additionally, Mary Madalene should be regarded as an Apostle. She after all was a disciple of Christ, following Him and his path and hearing the words of Jesus directly. As you point out she was close to Jesus, as in anointing his feet with oil and tickling them with her hair. She was apparently the most concerned about Jesus, going to his tomb to care and mourn for him. Too bad her part was mostly written out of the script afterward.

I agree whether or not they were married I do not know but they were clearly closer than anyone else, at least from that gospel, she was confident enough in her relationship with Jesus to tell Peter he was wrong.

[volgadon]

Yes, but they had no temple. When they had a temple it WAS required they be married to teach in the tmeple.

New one on me.

Perhpas you are thinking of the statement in the Mishnah that the high priest who would be officiating in the temple on the Day of Atonement should have another woman on standby in case his wife should die. This would mean that he would be unable to officiate due to burying his wife, contact with the dead or a grave would render him unclean.

This is hardly a case of people being forbidden to teach in the outer courts of the temple if they were unmarried.

Jesus taught in the temple.

There are many other evidences of Jesus being married in the New Testamet. Some are fairly obvious and a study of Jewish customs isn't needed. Other evidences require an understanding of Jewish law and customs.

I believe the wedding feast described where Jesus turned water into wine was his very own wedding. As I mentioned, some of the reasons I believe this are because a Jewish friend once pointed out many of the traditions in the story, and others are right there in the story itself.

Read the story and pay attention to the ruler or governor of the feast (probably the local Rabbi). Pay close attention to who gives him the wine and who he goes to in order to find out where it came from.

Whether or not Christ was married, the wedding at Cana was not his own. The groom is not invited to his own wedding, nor do the servants have to be instructed to heed him. There are other indicators, but these two are the strongest.

[mnn727]

Interesting, but can you be exalted without a body of flesh and bone?

Thats another interesting thought and I'd really have to go waaaaaay out into Speculation land to try to explain that one.

[marts1]

Thats another interesting thought and I'd really have to go waaaaaay out into Speculation land to try to explain that one.

Not something I would do in church.

[mnn727]

Not something I would do in church.

you're right, but on a message board..........

[mrmarklin]

Correct, He was already exalted, in other words, according to LDS beliefs if you apply them consistantly, He must have already been married to be exalted BEFORE He became Earths Savior.

Think about it, if you apply our beliefs logically and consistantly:

To become exalted you must be sealed eternally to a spouse

To become a God you must be exalted

Jesus was Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament before He was born in Bethleham

Ipso facto: Jesus must have been Married before Old Testament times

Mary Magdalene was not the prostitute, its a myth started in the RCC centuries ago and since denounced by them, but picked up and used by the play and movie: Jesus Christ Superstar

Christ was not exhalted until His resurrection. He was not yet perfected. Please read the scripture where He admonishes us the be perfect even as His Father is perfect, note He does not averr His perfection. That awaits until He appears to the Nephites where He admonishes them the perfection even as I and my Father are perfect. This is after the resurrection.

I agree that logic certainly dictates the Christ was married. IMNSHO it was Mary Magdalene. No proof of this of course, but she was the first one to see Him after His "death". I've always thought it was indicative.

[Justice]

New one on me.

Perhpas you are thinking of the statement in the Mishnah that the high priest who would be officiating in the temple on the Day of Atonement should have another woman on standby in case his wife should die. This would mean that he would be unable to officiate due to burying his wife, contact with the dead or a grave would render him unclean.

No, I am referring to what an Orthodox Jew once taught me about Jewish laws and customs. I also have a book titled Jewish History and Tradition. It is clearly spelled out in it.

This is hardly a case of people being forbidden to teach in the outer courts of the temple if they were unmarried.

Jesus taught deeper in the temple than the outer courtyard. In fact, the first time those in the temple sought His life was because He claimed the scripture in Isaiah He just read had been fulfilled that day in their ears. An unmarried teacher, whether he was a legal recipient of the priesthood or not, was not allowed to teach or read from the Law or the Prophets within the temple.

Whether or not Christ was married, the wedding at Cana was not his own. The groom is not invited to his own wedding, nor do the servants have to be instructed to heed him. There are other indicators, but these two are the strongest.

Not according to Jewish custom. Remember, this event took place at the wedding feast, and not specifically the wedding itself. It indeed was tradition to call the bridegroom and those who were with him to the feast. Think of the story of the 10 virgins, they were being called to the wedding feast and were supposed to follow the bridegroom to the feast. They knew the traditions, and this one pinpoints someone in Jesus' family, or very close kinship, as the bridegroom. It's when this evidence is combined with the other evidence found, where we see it seems to be pointing at Jesus.

I'm not saying there is proof, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm saying if you study Jewish tradition and law, and study this story very close, there is strong evidence of a tie.

Don't take my word for it, though. Study it for yourself.

[volgadon]

No, I am referring to what an Orthodox Jew once taught me about Jewish laws and customs. I also have a book titled Jewish History and Tradition. It is clearly spelled out in it.

Who is the author, when was it written, and what references do they give?

Jesus taught deeper in the temple than the outer courtyard.

Chapter and verse, please.

In fact, the first time those in the temple sought His life was because He claimed the scripture in Isaiah He just read had been fulfilled that day in their ears.

That was in the Nazareth synagogue, not the temple.

The unmarried ben Azai preached in the synagogue.

Also, most anyone could get up and read a portion of scripture (if they were literate), or paraphrase it into Aramaic.

An unmarried teacher, whether he was a legal recipient of the priesthood or not, was not allowed to teach or read from the Law or the Prophets within the temple.

Reference?

Not according to Jewish custom. Remember, this event took place at the wedding feast, and not specifically the wedding itself. It indeed was tradition to call the bridegroom and those who were with him to the feast. Think of the story of the 10 virgins, they were being called to the wedding feast and were supposed to follow the bridegroom to the feast. They knew the traditions, and this one pinpoints someone in Jesus' family, or very close kinship, as the bridegroom. It's when this evidence is combined with the other evidence found, where we see it seems to be pointing at Jesus.

The ten virgins wre neither bride nor groom. Also, not merely close relatives came to meet and escort bride and groom, the whole village did, and any randomn people as well.

Have you never heard of hachnasat kalah? An example is found in chapter 4 of the Fathers According to Rabbi Nathan, pg. 32 of the Goldin translation.

Th parable of the 10 virgins is certainly no case of bridgeroom being invited to his own party!

The feast was part of the wedding. At its conclusion the pair would consumate the marriage in the bridgeroom's home. That was the wedding in Christ's day.

Why is Christ invited to the wedding instead of picking up the bride and escorting her to his home for the feast?

I'm not saying there is proof, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm saying if you study Jewish tradition and law, and study this story very close, there is strong evidence of a tie.

The more one studies those things the weaker the tie.

Don't take my word for it, though. Study it for yourself.

Trust me, I have. I've also been to dozens of Jewish weddings from all sorts of different communities, as well as Palestinian ones. I can point you in the direction of some excellent sources.

[mnn727]

Christ was not exhalted until His resurrection. He was not yet perfected. Please read the scripture where He admonishes us the be perfect even as His Father is perfect, note He does not averr His perfection. That awaits until He appears to the Nephites where He admonishes them the perfection even as I and my Father are perfect. This is after the resurrection.

.

I am not saying what I believe is doctrine or even correct, I am just saying if you apply our beliefs logically and consistantly it must be true. I certainly wouldn't take a comment about perfection to refute it.

[Adomini22]

Volgadon, your post is a little funny. Not to be rude, but how many sources do you need? If you want, I can find numerous references made by Apostles that explicitly state that Mary was the wife of Jesus. (of course, this can be taken as opinion, but still ) If you require me post it, I will be happy to if you give me a couple of days (I work and go to school full time, so you will just have to be patient). Or you can google it. Justice is "spot on" about this topic. One could not be Rabbi until he was married. (Of course, if you know, one cannot be Rabbi unless he was 30 years or older too) The wedding of turning the water to wine - if you read that chapter Word for Word, it is spelled out pretty clearly who the groom is. Ever wonder why Jesus's mom was there fetching the wine for the bridegroom? Hmmmm......

Lets not even bring covenants into the conversation either. So Jesus had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, got his endownments later but can't get married and sealed to be exalted? Does not Jesus follow the Father in all things, even doing what His Father did? Doesn't the Father have a wife?

[volgadon]

Volgadon, your post is a little funny. Not to be rude, but how many sources do you need?

ah yes, it must be hilarious that I want to see for myself the sources that Justice is basing his assertions on. Silly me.

If you want, I can find numerous references made by Apostles that explicitly state that Mary was the wife of Jesus. (of course, this can be taken as opinion, but still ) If you require me post it, I will be happy to if you give me a couple of days (I work and go to school full time, so you will just have to be patient). Or you can google it.

I've read those. Has nothing to do with what I was asking Justice for.

Justice is "spot on" about this topic. One could not be Rabbi until he was married. (Of course, if you know, one cannot be Rabbi unless he was 30 years or older too)

Not so.

You are probably thinking of a statement attributed to r. Judah b. Temah (a sage who lived after the destruction of Herod's temple), which can be found in Pirkei Avot.

He used to say: "One five years old should study Scripture; ten years--Mishna; thirteen years--should practise the commandments; fifteen years old--should study Gemara; eighteen years old--the bridal; at twenty--pursuits; at thirty--strength; at forty--discernment; at fifty--counsel; at sixty--age; at seventy--hoariness; at eighty--power; at ninety--decrepitude; at one hundred--it is as though he were dead and gone and had ceased from the world."

This is one man's opinion on the stages a man's life should take, not a set law.

Also note that Christ was far older than the recommended age for marriage!

I have shared the example of r. ben Azai, who was not married.

The wedding of turning the water to wine - if you read that chapter Word for Word, it is spelled out pretty clearly who the groom is. Ever wonder why Jesus's mom was there fetching the wine for the bridegroom? Hmmmm......

Because relatives assisted with the wedding feast? These were big undertakings, even distant relations helped. I've noted difficulties, such as Jesus being invited to his own feast, or the servants being instructed to obey him. When one looks at the whole pericope it is far from being a given (or, indeed, even probable) that it was his own wedding.

Lets not even bring covenants into the conversation either. So Jesus had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, got his endownments later but can't get married and sealed to be exalted? Does not Jesus follow the Father in all things, even doing what His Father did? Doesn't the Father have a wife?

What does that have to do with the wedding at Cana?

Edited April 20, 2010 by volgadon

[Justice]

I have moved since I read that book and cannot find it. However, I have found many references on the internet just with a few quick searches. There are different types of Jews, just as there are different types of Christians. The Catholic Church teaches their "authority" perpetuates from Peter. The Mormon Church claims it does not, and a restoration was needed. Jews differ this severely as well. It might be a case of pick which one you want to believe.

Here is a portion of one web site I found that speaks of the possibility of Jesus' marriage being mentioned in scripture:

INDIRECT EVIDENCE

1. Jewish customs of Jesus' day required married Rabbis. Unmarried men were considered a curse to Jewish society. Jesus would not have had much credibility as a leader had He not been married. Although Jesus was a non-conformist and had many conflicts with Jewish tradition, His parents, Joseph and Mary, were not. The Bible says that they were careful to perfectly obey the laws of their people. It also says that Jesus was "subject unto them". Since Jewish culture practiced arranged marriages and early marriage, as well (a Jewish boy was marriageable at age 16), it is reasonable to assume that Jesus' parents would have performed their parental duties faithfully and arranged a bride for the young Jesus. There are 18 silent years in His life (12 - 30). The Gospel of John tells us that there were many other things which Jesus did which have not been recorded.

This point is important because it shifts the weight of presumption. Given the cultural milieu in which Jesus lived and the supporting Biblical evidence, the burden of proof lies with those who do not believe Jesus was married. They must show why Jesus and His parents would have been derelict in their civic responsibilities and not contracted a marriage.

2. According to Josephus, descendants of the House of David felt a moral obligation to perpetuate their line, never knowing which one among their descendants would be the chosen Messiah. Jesus may or may not have known who He was, but regardless, He lived as a normal person until called by the ministry of John the Baptist.

DIRECT EVIDENCE

1. Hippolytus, a Christian leader from the late 2nd Century, was followed by Origen in the 3rd Century in saying that the Song of Solomon was a prophecy of a marital union between Christ and Mary Magdalene. Although they believed Mary was symbolic of the Church, nevertheless, the notion presupposed a real, albeit a spiritual (meaning non-sexual), marriage between Mary and Jesus.

2. There are hints scattered in the Gospels of a special relationship between Jesus and Mary. If she is the same Mary of Bethany in John 11, then we can explain why Martha arose to greet Jesus and not Mary. Some scholars say she was sitting shiva according to Jewish custom. "Shiva" was when a woman was in mourning. Married women were not allowed to break-off from their mourning unless called by their husbands. In this story, Mary does not come to Jesus, until He calls her.

· At the Resurrection, when Mary meets Jesus in the Garden, there is a degree of intimacy (see the Aramaic here) which one would expect between lovers, not friends.

· The Greek word for "woman" and "wife" is the same. Translators must rely upon the context in deciding how to translate it. Sometimes, the translation is arbitrary. When Mary is referred to as a "woman" who followed Jesus, it can just as easily be translated as "wife".

4. The story of Mary with the alabaster jar anointing the feet of Jesus is cited by some scholars as the most direct witness to their marriage. It is in all four Gospels and was a story in which Jesus gave express command that it be preserved. This ceremony was an ancient one among many royal houses in the ancient world, which sealed the marital union between the king and his priestess spouse. We find it mentioned briefly in the Song of Solomon. Although we may not understand its significance, Jesus and Mary knew exactly what they were doing. To be the valid Messiah, He had to be anointed first by the Bride. They were by-passing the corrupt Jewish establishment.

There is more support for the marital status of Jesus. However, it involves a discussion of the Old Testament prophets which would be too tedious to undertake, here. It is important to realize, however, that belief in a married Jesus does not require any more faith than a resurrected Jesus. And if you know where to look, you can find just as much biblical evidence for both.

Source: Grail Christianity

There were too many sources to list that said very similar things about the evidence found in ancient Jewish tradition.

[volgadon]

1. Jewish customs of Jesus' day required married Rabbis.

And not a single reference to back up assertions like these. I could myself find dozens of websites asserting that 'Jewish customs of Jesus' day required married Rabbis' none of which provide the sources for such claims. Nevermind that rabbis as such did not exist in Jesus's day. there were sages, yes, but they were not termed rabbi (I mean not uniquely, rabbi was the equivalent of today's usage of sir) nor did they have any official status like later rabbis did.

There were too many sources to list that said very similar things about the evidence found in ancient Jewish tradition.

Did any of them provide references to said ancient Jewish tradition or at least to secondary literature?

There are different types of Jews, just as there are different types of Christians.

I'm well aware of that. The history of my people and my land is of deep interest to me.

I have moved since I read that book and cannot find it.

Are you sure you remember the title correctly, I tried googling it but with no success.

[Justice]

Are you sure you remember the title correctly, I tried googling it but with no success.

No. I remember the words Jewish and History, and I think it said something about Custom or Tradition as well. But, no, not certain. Was a good read tho. My good friend, who was a Jew for 50 years, was baptized LDS later in his life. He helped me with a lot of the book.

One think I remember very clearly tho, Rabbi was the title of the leader of their local synogog, and he had to be married to be a Rabbi. I do remember those 2 things very clearly from my friend, and from the book (and from 20 or so web sites I've looked at since this discussion started).

Sources? Then you'll want sources from my sources (oh, wait, you already do).

I suggest we just agree to disagree. I really don't mind you not agreeing with me. There are many, many ways people can find answers today. All those sources won't agree.

[mikbone]

I'm gonna have to back up Volgadon here.

Jesus Christ/Was Jesus married - FAIRMormon

The above link is to a well documented discussion about what the current LDS stance is concerning the question, was Jesus Christ married? Short answer we don't know.

Just because a person wants a hypothesis to be true doesn't make it so. There is no scriptural evidence that Christ was married during mortality.

Volgadon has not been trying to convince anyone that Christ was not married. He is just stating that it is entirely possible that a Rabbi not be married. He's correct.

Personally I don't think that Christ was married to Mary Magdalene, or to any other mortal woman during his mortal ministry. I don't think that Elohim was married to the Virgin Mary either.

[volgadon]

No. I remember the words Jewish and History, and I think it said something about Custom or Tradition as well. But, no, not certain. Was a good read tho. My good friend, who was a Jew for 50 years, was baptized LDS later in his life. He helped me with a lot of the book.

One think I remember very clearly tho, Rabbi was the title of the leader of their local synogog, and he had to be married to be a Rabbi. I do remember those 2 things very clearly from my friend, and from the book (and from 20 or so web sites I've looked at since this discussion started)

A clear anachronism. The office of rabbi as you describe it simply did not exist in Christ's day, and even during the Jamniah days it was different. Also the rabbis did not gain control of the syngagogue until the early medieval period.

Christ was not a rabbi.

Sources? Then you'll want sources from my sources (oh, wait, you already do).

Did not even a single one of those 20 or so websites provide a source?

I suggest we just agree to disagree. I really don't mind you not agreeing with me. There are many, many ways people can find answers today. All those sources won't agree.

of course there are many ways to find answers, but when it comes to history they need to be connected to the primary sources.

[volgadon]

I'm gonna have to back up Volgadon here.

Jesus Christ/Was Jesus married - FAIRMormon

The above link is to a well documented discussion about what the current LDS stance is concerning the question, was Jesus Christ married? Short answer we don't know.

Just because a person wants a hypothesis to be true doesn't make it so. There is no scriptural evidence that Christ was married during mortality.

Thanks.

There is no scriptural evidence either way.

Volgadon has not been trying to convince anyone that Christ was not married.

In fact, my personal opinion is that he was married.

He is just stating that it is entirely possible that a Rabbi not be married. He's correct.

Precisely. I'm also trying to show that there is no indication that the wedding at Cana was Christ's own.

Personally I don't think that Christ was married to Mary Magdalene, or to any other mortal woman during his mortal ministry. I don't think that Elohim was married to the Virgin Mary either.

Even if he was, knowing to whom he was married is as impossible of solution as the identity of Beethoven's secret love.

[Dravin]

That's why I'm inclined to believe that Christ was married while on earth. I just don't think it's important or anything we really need to know.

I agree with your sentiment. The arguments that Christ is exalted and a prerequisite to exaltation is marriage carry weight with me independent of any evidence people are claiming from the scriptures. That said, not knowing doesn't affect my faith as far as I can tell.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

Hypothetically speaking:

If Jesus were married to Mary Magdalene, and she had previously been a prostitute--there is, at least, scriptural precedent for such an action.