Moses: A translated being?

[FunkyTown]

Hey everyone,

I was at Institute the other night and the teacher mentioned that Moses was a translated being.

I frowned at that and remembered something, so I looked up Moses. Turns out, the teacher was right.

However, Jude 1:9 talks about the argument between Satan and Michael over Moses' body. I felt that if he was translated, he wouldn't have left remains as his body would be gone. I'm obviously missing something here or have a lack of understanding of that scripture.

Anyone know how that's reconciled? :)

[Hemidakota]

In the case of Moses being translated, this was taught by Joseph Smith.

Was Joseph Smith wrong? Looking a old non-canonized writing called ‘The Assumption of Moses’, believed to be a composite of two apocryphal writings, one called the Testament of Moses and the other the Assumption.

The first Greek version of the entire work appeared in the first century A.D. and was used by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and other Greek writers. It was translated into Latin by the fifth century. A large fragment of one of its early manuscripts was found in the sixth century in the Ambrosian Library in Milan. It is believed to have been written originally by some Pharisaic Quietist and was designed as a protest against the secularization of the Pharisaic party. No one regards it as scripture though. This is the same case as to the Book of Enoch, recited by the Savior Himself but failed to meet the earlier canonized councils.

Purpose of a translated being? Translated beings have a further mission that requires them the need of this type of body to accomplish the Savior's WILL. In the case of John the beloved, the mission was given in the book he did received by the hand of a ministering angel {I believe it was a translated being who delivered it to him] where he was tasked to be the lead prophet for the lost ten-tribes of Israel, and to be at the head of those four destroyers [see D&C 77]. Translated beings, will come to instruct, protect, and to administer to those of elect of GOD.

There are a few in the Book of Mormon who were also translated beside the three Apostles.

[FunkyTown]

Thanks, Hemi!

I appreciate what you wrote, but... It doesn't really answer my question.

I didn't say Joseph Smith was wrong. Instead, I said that the bible states that Satan and Michael argued over Moses' body. I wasn't looking for your admittedly vast knowledge on this. Instead, I just wanted to know where I was misinterpreting either Moses being a translated being or Jude 1:9's passage which talks about the argument.

So: As a reiteration, I'm not looking for the purpose of translated beings. I'm just looking to find out what I'm obviously missing.

[Wingnut]

I'm just looking to find out what I'm obviously missing.

The 8th article of faith?

(Not being snarky, just trying to offer something potentially helpful.)

Edited May 7, 2010 by Wingnut
fix quote bracket

[FunkyTown]

The 8th article of faith?

(Not being snarky, just trying to offer something potentially helpful.)

Hahah. Touche'! But you'd think that someone, somewhere, would have commented on this.

I don't think you're being snarky, Wing. :) I agree. It might be something very simple like a mistranslation, but I haven't been able to find anything on it, so I hoped to find out what I was missing.

[Hemidakota]

Sorry! I had to attend a meeting all morning. I will find your answer concerning Jude statement with Moses before the end of the day.

One thing to note though, Enoch did in fact personally visited Jude [verse 14-15]. This was according to Joseph Smith comment as he was correcting the New Testament translation.

[Hemidakota]

Ok. For those who are reading this for the first time, Funky is talking about the bolded verse 9. I have added verse 8 [pre-verse] and 10 [post verse], seeing it is a new thought here from the original writer to get a sense what is being written by the individual.

8 ¶ Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

It is quite clear; the writing style is not unique to us in formulating what is being addressed before and after in searching for a meaning, when I am reading two different train of thoughts beside the topic 'evi'l itself, whether it is beyond the veil or of those in mortality exhibiting evil.

Funky, if you turned to the Book of Moses, Moses was brought before the Godhead upon the mount. It is GOD the FATHER who converses with Moses in the beginning then soon afterwards, departs from the presence. What happen next? Who came to Moses, when he was left to himself? The answer is Lucifer. What was Lucifer main objective for Moses? Lucifer stated to Moses, "...WORSHIP ME MOSES...". This was his objective in having Moses worshipping him as a Son of GOD. If this was not met, Lucifer next choice was to destroy Moses. According to Jude, who was Moses ministering spirit? Michael!

You will find, a similar event happened to a future prophet in our days. But, the '...worshipping me' first was not used in this case with the Joseph Smith [see the First Vision]. Where, the teenage boy, in an attempt to pray vocally to GOD, was overcome by a dark evil force. This was Lucifer. Lucifer in this case, sought to destroy Joseph outright vice having to appear before him as an angel of light.

Brother A. Dyer stated this about Moses during that moment when he was left to himself;

The attempt made by Lucifer to take the body of Moses frustrated by Michael:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said the Lord rebuke thee. (Here Lucifer is permitted to continue but not to the extent of the destruction of Moses, wherein a key gospel situation was at stake.) Meaning of Truth (A. Dyer)

To answer this perplexing writing style by Jude, Elder Orson Hyde and Orson F. Whitney explained what is meant by using a parallel event I stated that Joseph suffered himself;

Elder Orson Hyde's supplemental description of the fearful scene is as follows, taken from a letter addressed to President Kimball:

Every circumstance that occurred at that scene of devils is just as fresh in my recollection at this moment as it was at the moment of its occurrence, and will ever remain so. After you were overcome by them and had fallen, their awful rush upon me with knives, threats, imprecations and hellish grins, amply convinced me that they were no friends of mine. While you were apparently senseless and lifeless on the floor and upon the bed (after we had laid you there), I stood between you and the devils and fought them and contended with them face to face, until they began to diminish in number and to retreat from the room. The last imp that left turned round to me as he was going out and said, as if to apologize, and appease my determined opposition to them, "I never said anything against you!" I replied to him thus: "It matters not to me whether you have or have not; you are a liar from the beginning! In the name of Jesus Christ, depart!" He immediately left, and the room was clear. That closed the scene of devils for that time.

Elder Orson F. Whitney, who wrote the Life of Heber C. Kimball, states that some time later when this incident was called to the attention of the Prophet Joseph Smith by Elder Kimball, he said:

"Brother Heber, at that time you were nigh unto the Lord; there was only a veil between you and him, but you could not see him." The Prophet then related some of his own experiences in contests he had gone through with the evil power. How similar was the contest that Moses had with Lucifer as recorded in the Book of Moses, and as recorded in Jude. (Man His Origin and Destiny (J. Smith))

What is learned from these events, you will notice, any person, who has a mission of great importunacy from GOD or the Savior, it is Lucifer or his cronies, will come to destroy that person [contesting the body of that individual]. They are usually rescued by a ministering angel [a guardian assigned to that person].

Hopefully, this answers your question.

[JessicaHarper]

Hahah. Touche'! But you'd think that someone, somewhere, would have commented on this.

I don't think you're being snarky, Wing. :) I agree. It might be something very simple like a mistranslation, but I haven't been able to find anything on it, so I hoped to find out what I was missing.

Not being LDS, and also feeling a bit snarky, this was my first impression as to how a LDS would "fix" this.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hey everyone,

I was at Institute the other night and the teacher mentioned that Moses was a translated being.

I frowned at that and remembered something, so I looked up Moses. Turns out, the teacher was right.

However, Jude 1:9 talks about the argument between Satan and Michael over Moses' body. I felt that if he was translated, he wouldn't have left remains as his body would be gone. I'm obviously missing something here or have a lack of understanding of that scripture.

Anyone know how that's reconciled? :)

I am curious about this too. Where does it say that 'translation of a being' requires using the same material or the same body used here on earth? When a spirit is translated and there is a physical change, why couldn't that physical change be a moving of the spirit from one mortal corrupted body to a separate immortal body, in the twinkling of an eye. Couldn't one also say that "the body has changed from mortal to immortal in a twinkling of an eye" in that case?

[Just_A_Guy]

Hey everyone,

I was at Institute the other night and the teacher mentioned that Moses was a translated being.

I frowned at that and remembered something, so I looked up Moses. Turns out, the teacher was right.

However, Jude 1:9 talks about the argument between Satan and Michael over Moses' body. I felt that if he was translated, he wouldn't have left remains as his body would be gone. I'm obviously missing something here or have a lack of understanding of that scripture.

Anyone know how that's reconciled? :)

I have a hazy memory of reading something (Nibley?) to the effect that, just before Moses' translation, Satan appeared and claimed Moses wasn't worthy to be translated because he had killed a man. If this is correct, then the fight isn't over Moses' body per se but over his worthiness to be translated in the first place.

As I understand it, Moses (and Elijah) had to be translated because they needed to appear to Jesus, with their bodies, during His lifetime. Since Jesus would be the first to be resurrected, Moses and Elijah couldn't fulfill that task as resurrected beings. Hence their translation.

[Hemidakota]

Joseph Smith - Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead. . . .

Now it was evident that there was a better resurrection, or else God would not have revealed it unto Paul. Wherein then, can it be said a better resurrection? This distinction is made between the doctrine of the actual resurrection and translation: translation obtains deliverance from the tortures and sufferings of the body, but their existence will prolong as to the labors and toils of the ministry, before they can enter into so great a rest and glory. (From an article on priesthood, read at a general conference of the Church by Robert B. Thompson, and included as part of minutes of the conference held in Nauvoo, Ill., Oct. 5, 1840, HC4:207-12) HC4:210

George Q. Cannon - "Does translation imply an entire change in the body?"

There is nothing written upon this subject concerning Elijah, who was translated. But we have the words of the Lord in the Book of Mormon concerning the three Nephites unto whom the promise was made, in the words of Jesus, "For ye shall never taste of death." They were told that they should "never endure the pains of death," but when Jesus should come in His glory they were to "be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality." They were not to have pain while they should "dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world." They were caught up into heaven, and it is recorded that they could not tell whether they were in the body or out of the body; "for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state." In speaking of them, the Prophet Mormon says, "Whether they were mortal or immortal from the day of their transfiguration" he knew not.

This gives us a clear idea of the change that was wrought in these three Apostles. In the translation of Elijah and others who may have been translated there doubtless were similar changes made such as the Prophet Mormon describes as having taken place in the case of the three Nephites. (Gospel Truth, 1:36-37) TLDP:699

Or what the Savior spoke about in 3rd Nephi 28:1-9,12

Bruce R. McConkie - Enoch and his whole city were translated, taken up bodily into heaven without tasting death. There they served and labored with bodies of flesh and bones, bodies quickened by the power of the Spirit, until that blessed day when they were with Christ in his resurrection. Then, in the twinkling of an eye, they were changed and became immortal in the full sense of the word. So it was also with Moses and Elijah, who were taken up bodily into heaven for reasons that will be manifest on the Mount of Transfiguration. They too were with the Lord Jesus in his resurrection. (See D&C 133:54-55.) (The Mortal Messiah, 3:52) TLDP:700

Joseph Smith - Translated bodies cannot enter into rest until they have undergone a change equivalent to death. Translated bodies are designed for future missions. (Conference of the Church, Oct. 3, 1841, Nauvoo, Ill.) HC4:425

Edited May 4, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Elgama]

ok I am not good at intellectual if I don't have to be lol

Do you have a body? Are You Alive or Dead? and do Satan and the Saviour contend over you?

[Moksha]

For what it is worth, the Book of Mormon has been translated into many different languages. Beyond that, some teachings of the past have survived and some have not. I think that those which have not have somehow lacked internal consistency with other accepted ideas.

BTW, the Universal Translator on the USS Enterprise allows you to speak both Klingon and Andoria like a native.

[Hemidakota]

ok I am not good at intellectual if I don't have to be lol

Do you have a body? Are You Alive or Dead? and do Satan and the Saviour contend over you?

What is death? Are we truly dead when we give up the mortal shell? What becomes of those who are casted out to hell for eternality or when the time of refresh is complete, do they still exist?

[Elgama]

What is death? Are we truly dead when we give up the mortal shell? What becomes of those who are casted out to hell for eternality or when the time of refresh is complete, do they still exist?

See now we have more questions than answers just for that one scripture lol I hate that the more I learn the less I know why I don't like testing my academic side:)

[Seminarysnoozer]

When Jesus showed himself to the apostles and the account in 3rd Nephi after the crucifixion, before "ascending" to heaven, is that similar to a translated state?

[Shaun]

Found this:

"The Testament of Moses (Assumption of Moses 1:15) and Biblical Antiquities 19, 20d (AD 110-130), stress the idea that Moses was buried in public: that is, many saw his burial; Ginzberg remarks that this has a very likely aim to combat the view that he did not die at all, but was translated to heaven."  (Teeple p. 43)  "Moses disappeared in a cloud as he was about to embrace Eleazar and Joshua." (Teeple p. 43)  Of interest here, is the fact that Lucifer, the Devil, knowing what Moses would accomplish as a translated being, wanted him dead, and thus exerted a tremendous effort to keep Moses from being translated.  Michael had to intervene in contention over the status of the body of Moses. (Jude 9, Metzger p. 203)  Michael won. Moses was translated.

https://www.einarerickson.com/research/88-the-translation-of-alma

[Vort]

Einar Erickson -- interesting guy. His was the tape I mentioned a few weeks ago as being passed around our mission (the one where he said "puh-RID-ih-gum" and it took me decades to figure out he was saying "paradigm"). From what I can glean, he was a gifted speaker who tended to pass on (accidentally, I am sure) some misleading and even incorrect information.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Vort said:

"puh-RID-ih-gum"

 

[CV75]

On 5/4/2010 at 6:42 AM, FunkyTown said:

Hey everyone,

I was at Institute the other night and the teacher mentioned that Moses was a translated being.

I frowned at that and remembered something, so I looked up Moses. Turns out, the teacher was right.

However, Jude 1:9 talks about the argument between Satan and Michael over Moses' body. I felt that if he was translated, he wouldn't have left remains as his body would be gone. I'm obviously missing something here or have a lack of understanding of that scripture.

Anyone know how that's reconciled?

In Moses 1: 9-10, Moses had fainted away, and Satan wanted to descend upon him, which he did in verse 12.

One reconciliation of the translation and the dispute accounts could be that the dispute was not upon Moses' death; rather, while he was in this vulnerable state (Moses 1:9-10), Satan wanted to invade his body while Michael protected it.

Another reconciliation could that Moses had other visions, which like others, could have taken place "out of the body" (2 Corinthians 12: 2-3; D&C 137:1), during which time Satan wanted to invade his body while Michael protected it.

Another reconciliation could be that in the process of his translation, there was a dispute between Satan and Michael, with Satan trying to prevent it. Satan's role might have simply been to tempt Moses away from being translated, or to tempt him to sin so as to not be translated.

Edited January 8, 2017 by CV75

[Blackmarch]

On 5/4/2010 at 4:42 AM, FunkyTown said:

Hey everyone,

I was at Institute the other night and the teacher mentioned that Moses was a translated being.

I frowned at that and remembered something, so I looked up Moses. Turns out, the teacher was right.

However, Jude 1:9 talks about the argument between Satan and Michael over Moses' body. I felt that if he was translated, he wouldn't have left remains as his body would be gone. I'm obviously missing something here or have a lack of understanding of that scripture.

Anyone know how that's reconciled?

did the scripture mention whether or not it was a live or dead body? there have certainly een cases recorded throughout history where an individual has had to fight a devil for control of their body.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

did the scripture mention whether or not it was a live or dead body? there have certainly een cases recorded throughout history where an individual has had to fight a devil for control of their body.

In Moses 1: 9-10, Moses had fainted away, and Satan wanted to descend upon him, which he did in verse 12.

One reconciliation of the translation and the dispute accounts could be that the dispute was not upon Moses' death; rather, while he was in this vulnerable state (Moses 1:9-10), Satan wanted to invade his body while Michael protected it.

Another reconciliation could that Moses had other visions, which like others, could have taken place "out of the body" (2 Corinthians 12: 2-3; D&C 137:1), during which time Satan wanted to invade his body while Michael protected it.

Another reconciliation could be that in the process of his translation, there was a dispute between Satan and Michael, with Satan trying to prevent it. Satan's role might have simply been to tempt Moses away from being translated, or to tempt him to sin so as to not be translated.

In any case, it would have to be a live body; no sense fighting over inert dust.