The War in Heaven

[TheAnonymous]

Quick, simple question. How does one lose a war with spirits? They didn't have bodies after all...

[skippy740]

D&c 18:10:

remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of god;

[TheAnonymous]

D&c 18:10:

Maybe I was unclear.

I literally mean how does someone actually lose? War is an event where death determines the winner or loser, so how can anybody "lose" here?

[skippy740]

Who said the war was over?

[Dravin]

Maybe I was unclear.

I literally mean how does someone actually lose? War is an event where death determines the winner or loser, so how can anybody "lose" here?

Actually war is an event where the ability or motivation to fight the war determines the winner. For mortals piling up the bodies is a fairly effective tactic but it isn't the only way. If you could remove your opponent to someplace where they no longer have the ability (or otherwise remove that ability) to prosecute the war against you I would be willing to say you've won the war. So if the Allies could have just transported the German Army (and possibly all or a significant portion of the civilian population) to Endor they could have won the war without having to kill themselves millions of Germans.

My vague understanding is after the Millennium Satan and his followers will be cast into outer darkness and thus removed from the playing field.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dravin

[TheAnonymous]

Actually war is an event where the ability or motivation to fight the war determines the winner. For mortals piling up the bodies is a fairly effective tactic but it isn't the only way. If you could remove your opponent to someplace where they no longer have the ability (or otherwise remove that ability) to prosecute the war against you I would be willing to say you've won the war. So if the Allies could have just transported the German Army (and possibly all or a significant portion of the civilian population) to Endor they could have won the war without having to kill themselves millions of Germans.

My vague understanding is after the Millennium Satan and his followers will be cast into outer darkness and thus removed from the playing field.

So was it a war, or did God just quarantine them? Was there any actual fighting? In the years I've been in the church, it's always just been described as a war to me.

[LocalFarms]

who says that just because they are spirits they can't be damaged? Joseph Smith said that spirit bodies are made of matter just like our physical bodies, just a finer substance. I've heard of people seeing visions of angels fighting with swords.

[Dravin]

So was it a war, or did God just quarantine them?

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Was there any actual fighting? In the years I've been in the church, it's always just been described as a war to me.

Was it a war as in people with swords hacking each other apart or people with guns putting holes in each other? I don't believe so. Consider the phrase war of words, no tanks or spears are involved. The fighting (which does not always mean violence, I can have a fight without laying a finger on anyone) in heaven would not have been physical in nature, though honestly I don't know the exact nature of the struggle and my answer is one generated from logic (beings without bodies engaging in fisticuffs does not seem like an effectual means of conflict resolution) not from any sort of authoritative pronouncement.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dravin

[TheAnonymous]

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Was it a war as in people with swords hacking each other apart or people with guns putting holes in each other? I don't believe so. Consider the phrase war of words, no tanks or spears are involved. The fighting (which does not always mean violence, I can have a fight without laying a finger on anyone) in heaven would not have been physical in nature, though honestly I don't know the exact nature of the struggle and my answer is one generated from logic (beings without bodies engaging in fisticuffs does not seem like an effectual means of conflict resolution) not from any sort of authoritative pronouncement.

So how am I to interpret the quotes here:

LDS.org - Archives by Topic - War in Heaven

Those words seem strangely out of context if the war was something passive and metaphorical.

[beefche]

What is war? What is your definition of war? Mine is derived from the dictionary:

to make or carry on war; fight: to carry on active hostility or contention: to be in conflict or in a state of strong opposition:

Most of us think of "war" as in a physical battle--with hands or other sorts of weapons. But, war is ultimately an intense struggle for an idea, rights, freedom, our life, etc.

The war in heaven qualifies as a war because we were in a fight for our lives--our spiritual life and subsequently our physical life. The war may or may not have had a "physical" aspect to it; that is, we may not have struggled in what we typically think of as a fight--hand to hand combat. But rather, it may have been more along the lines of pitting ideology against ideology; understanding and interpretation to understanding and interpretation, etc.

Satan wanted followers--he wanted to remove as many of God's children as he could from God. Thus, God and Satan were in a struggle for lives--God will use persuasion and love to fight against lies and hatred.

Today, I still fight against Satan--yet, I have never met him nor physically fought with him. I fight his influence, his temptations, his hatred, etc. The war is not over but now sometimes it does carry into a physical realm since we now have bodies.

[mikbone]

There is one scripture that I know of that provides definitive commentary:

Revelations 12:11 and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Alma 43 & 44 can be read allegorically to give insight to the war in heaven:

Moroni = Michael the Archangel

Zerahemnah = Lucifer

Alma 43:45 Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

I also think a good Haka displays a war of testimony.

Edited June 5, 2010 by mikbone

[Dravin]

So how am I to interpret the quotes here:

LDS.org - Archives by Topic - War in Heaven

Those words seem strangely out of context if the war was something passive and metaphorical.

I never said it was passive and it is only metaphorical inasmuch as you don't accept that war doesn't necessarily speak of a physical struggle with people making holes in one another. Those quotes are not in disharmony with what I have said.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dravin

[Hemidakota]

Maybe I was unclear.

I literally mean how does someone actually lose? War is an event where death determines the winner or loser, so how can anybody "lose" here?

It doesn't. The war was simply of words and authority. How many souls [spirits] that were casted out of GOD's sphere was the result of great missionary work. If not, I believe over 3/4 of the host of GOD's children, could have been casted out. Yes! It sounds like alot of children would of have been lost, but, many followed the easier way of the altered Plan of Salvation Lucifer provided, which resemble the same plan for animals.

We are living with many of them and you can clearly see their mortal and eternal outcome from Adams time to what will prevail at the end of the millennium.

[Moksha]

Cannons to the Right

Cannons to the Left

Huddled in between

Are the coffee and tea

Plants.

Let the war begin!

[Gillebre]

I think the war in Heaven was largely one for our souls. It was a massive conflict of ideology.

I do believe there was a physical part to it, but not much beyond personal belief of mine supports that.

Plus, I want a lightsaber. I can just imagine having one in the war in Heaven...because it's awesome. lol

[Intrigued]

So, did they know of the consequences before they were damned? If it were truly a war of words one would assume that both sides knew full well what they were going in to.

[RanMan]

Maybe I was unclear.

I literally mean how does someone actually lose? War is an event where death determines the winner or loser, so how can anybody "lose" here?

How about war of words, or a war of ideals. Not to mention, losses can be in the form of spiritual death. And I think that there are more ways of determining win and loss rather than by casualties.

:)

[RanMan]

who says that just because they are spirits they can't be damaged? Joseph Smith said that spirit bodies are made of matter just like our physical bodies, just a finer substance. I've heard of people seeing visions of angels fighting with swords.

Interesting idea. Sounds like it would make a great book.

:)

[anim82r]

What is war? What is your definition of war? Mine is derived from the dictionary:

to make or carry on war; fight: to carry on active hostility or contention: to be in conflict or in a state of strong opposition:

Most of us think of "war" as in a physical battle--with hands or other sorts of weapons. But, war is ultimately an intense struggle for an idea, rights, freedom, our life, etc.

The war in heaven qualifies as a war because we were in a fight for our lives--our spiritual life and subsequently our physical life. The war may or may not have had a "physical" aspect to it; that is, we may not have struggled in what we typically think of as a fight--hand to hand combat. But rather, it may have been more along the lines of pitting ideology against ideology; understanding and interpretation to understanding and interpretation, etc.

Satan wanted followers--he wanted to remove as many of God's children as he could from God. Thus, God and Satan were in a struggle for lives--God will use persuasion and love to fight against lies and hatred.

Today, I still fight against Satan--yet, I have never met him nor physically fought with him. I fight his influence, his temptations, his hatred, etc. The war is not over but now sometimes it does carry into a physical realm since we now have bodies.

I agree:animatedthumbsup:

[Hemidakota]

We didn't fight for our lives at all. GOD is all powerful. If not, HE could not be GOD. Lucifer had no power at all except the lives he influences. Unless you understand this simple term, then all that believe this require only five-minutes in reviewing the past to learn what had happen.

What was fought for, the vast spirits of those who followed Lucifer and his thuggary. What was saved was more than what was lost.

Take a minute in seeking the right answer by the Holy Ghost.

[InquisitiveSoul]

War has many different methods and definitions. I like the post that said "who says it's over?"

The Cold War went on for decades and some say it never actually ended. Yet the two primary powers never fought a head to head battles we think of in a "traditional" war. The battles were often covert without a single shot being fired. Other times, such as during the 80's, the battle was fought through economics.

Others have made some great points, blood shed is only one method to war. Look at the world around you, nearly the entire world is at war, yet only a few areas in the world see traditional battles at this time.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I think it is taught in error that thirty-three percent of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer. I don't believe that. I believe it was a "third part." To

my understanding there were three groups of hosts in heaven:

1) Valiant spirits

2) Less valiant spirits

3) Rebellious spirits

The third part of the spirits were rebellious. Read in the book Jesus The Christ pages 6 to 7:

In this struggle between unembodied hosts the forces were unequally divided; Satan drew to his standard only a third part of the children of God, who are symbolized as the "stars of heaven"; the majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, thus accomplishing the purpose of their "first estate"; while the angels who arrayed themselves on the side of Satan "kept not their first estate", and therefore rendered themselves ineligible for the glorious possibilities of an advanced condition or "second estate".

[Moksha]

To my understanding there were three groups of hosts in heaven:

1) Valiant spirits

2) Less valiant spirits

3) Rebellious spirits

So which group of the Heavenly Host was humming Ride of the Valkyries in the the background?

Edited June 9, 2010 by Moksha
Sp&%#ing

[Justice]

Maybe I was unclear.

I literally mean how does someone actually lose? War is an event where death determines the winner or loser, so how can anybody "lose" here?

This is a reminder to me how we often look at the things of God through our eyes. We try to base our understanding of Him on what we know instead on what He has revealed.

As an example, think and ponder for a while on how God views birth into this world and death from this world.

Then, go from there and try to imagine how God sees things as you read His words.

[Hemidakota]

I think it is taught in error that thirty-three percent of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer. I don't believe that. I believe it was a "third part." To

my understanding there were three groups of hosts in heaven:

1) Valiant spirits

2) Less valiant spirits

3) Rebellious spirits

The third part of the spirits were rebellious. Read in the book Jesus The Christ pages 6 to 7:

In this struggle between unembodied hosts the forces were unequally divided; Satan drew to his standard only a third part of the children of God, who are symbolized as the "stars of heaven"; the majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, thus accomplishing the purpose of their "first estate"; while the angels who arrayed themselves on the side of Satan "kept not their first estate", and therefore rendered themselves ineligible for the glorious possibilities of an advanced condition or "second estate".

There were Telestial spirits, some terrestrial spirits, and a few celestial spirits.