this thread's been a long time coming... steady dating.

[PrinceofLight2000]

First off, before I create a massive controversial rift in the forum, let me give you some relevant background info on myself since I just joined. By the way, my name is Sean. =D

I'm 19 years old, working on getting my papers filled out to go on my mission. I currently live in Washington, but I'm from upstate New York (long move, I know). While I was in New York, I used to live in a small town, in quite a small school. I only had 100 or so people in my graduating class there. Given that circumstance, it was incredibly unfortunate that I was on the bottom of the popularity food chain. I only had one good friend while I was there, and naturally I was categorically rejected by all the girls, even though I wasn't able to date. They voted against me with their lack of interest, lol. To make matters worse for me, most of the kids who I went to church with were troublemakers at the time (some still are, one is actually incarcerated). This includes most of the female portion of the youth as well. The ones who were worthy I wasn't interested in that much. Remember, this was just me thinking about who I'd like to date, not actually dating.

When I was about 12 or 13 and started to hit puberty, all of this had an extremely adverse effect on me. From the start, I have always been very mature about love and dating and relationships. I knew my own capacity, but also that I couldn't date at the time. I also knew that for me, I wouldn't need to date to get to know many different people adequately because I made plans to make good, longtime friends. This includes possible prospects. I have also always wanted and treasured the chance to have a romantic relationship founded in worthiness as opposed to casual dating. The purpose of that was solved for me through friendship. I became lonely and depressed, I was thoroughly convinced that given my situation I wouldn't be able to find anyone to date when I was of age, or have any friends for that matter. It got to the point where I became so lonely one day that I couldn't take it anymore, I decided I was going to turn to God and use whatever resources I had available to meet new people to what extent was prudent. Given that I couldn't drive and, again, we lived out in the middle of nowhere, I saw that my only outlet would be to make good and righteous use of the internet. I found a website called LDSchat.com (have any of you been there?) and I immediately made a new friend. Her name is Kelly, you'll see her name pop up in here many more times. She's a year older than me, fyi. We hit it off instantly, it was both our first time going to LDSchat although we both thought the other had been going there a long time. We traded AIMs and got to know each other quite well for about a year.

I lost contact with Kelly, unfortunately, because my AIM broke and at that time I had no knowledge that our firewall was blocking it. I continued to make new friends on a videogame website (anybody here play Kingdom Hearts? it was a fan site for that). Here comes my first silly mistake. I had a fling with a girl who I considered my "girlfriend" on that website. We flirted and did all that fun stuff (nothing inappropriate) but I found I wasn't emotionally mature enough to date yet. Go figure, I was 14! Silly me. It wasn't that long before I found out she was more immature than I was. She had a problem with me and decided to not talk about it, only to freak out about it like I was SUPPOSED to know, of course I was completely blindsided. That was that, and I have regrets about it to this day, I still want to make amends.

Fast forward to 2007. My mom met my stepfather on a site called LDSMingle I believe. One thing led to another and pretty soon we were moving way over here to Washington. At that time I turned 16 so I could finally go on dates. I was planning on getting to know people here more in person so that I could date them, but I developed feelings for another girl online who I dated for six months. I'll spare you the details this time, it ended badly. HOWEVER! I had fixed my AIM, and Kelly and I got back into contact. She helped me through my difficulties with this other girl, and because I knew the relationship had been over long before I had given up, I started to develop feelings for Kelly again (remember when I said we "hit it off"? ). So it wasn't long until we decided to start a relationship, even though I had planned to date others physically around me. We're still together; it'll be three years in august. We've had our ups and downs like every couple does, and it's been a rather interesting balance of honesty, patience, and loyalty when dating long distance, but it can and will work with the right attitude and the right effort. Not only that, we've sought Heavenly Father to give us knowledge that we can trust one another, which we have received. We have had temptations, but we are worthy despite that, and we're wholly committed to both each other and Heavenly Father. With everything that we've experienced, I honestly feel like Heavenly Father wants this to succeed for us. We plan on meeting up after my mission and eventually getting married. :eek:!!! AND WE DECIDED THIS WHEN I WAS 17!!!!

Now that my book is done, (did you enjoy?) I'll get to the reason why I'm posting this. It'll be volume 2. =P

I find it rather disheartening and sometimes honestly quite judgmental the attitudes that are held by many of the members when it comes to teenagers dating steadily. I know that given my attitude change early on in life that I'm not like many of the teenagers around me and that I've gained a more responsible outlook on things. I've always felt that dating is something that should be taken seriously, and that friendships are the phase where you should get to know other people to see their mannerisms and whether or not you are attracted to them. I've also always felt that a relationship should be treated with the same amount of respect as would take place in a marriage, just without the additional privileges given in a marriage (sex? lol). I have also found a lot of the reasoning against steady dating can be solved by a matter of making good choices. Let me list some of my opinions of these.

Commonly used LDS reasoning against steady dating after 16 and prior to mission:

1. You're crazy Sean! Don't you know that casual dating helps you get to know people better and helps you find traits to look for when you want to look for a spouse?

Yes, I do. But as I said earlier, friendships accomplish that for me. Also, I would argue that simply making friends does more to meet that end than casual dating ever could. You can get to know a person much better by being friends with them for a few months to a year a lot better than taking new people out on dates and having exclusively periodic hour-long chats.

2. That may be true, but certainly dating steadily cannot bring you such information about what someone is like! Not to mention you will be faced with agonizing heartache if they're not what you thought!

I have worked out a plan for this situation. With Kelly, and after my silly mistakes, I have realized that it's best to make friends with someone for at least a few months, and get a scope of what they're really like before delving into a relationship. I knew Kelly for 2 years before we decided to date. As a friend, they come to you for advice and you will see their flaws and weaknesses, and likewise with your own. This is what prepared me to be able to handle a serious relationship. AT 16!!!! :eek:

3. But you'd still be heartbroken. Teens don't need that while they're in high school or while preparing for missions, they have other responsibilities!

This is very subjective. If you know you don't have time for a relationship or can't deal with a break-up well and it will affect your responsibilities, then don't start a relationship. Not everyone fits this mold, either. Personally, I'd be more miserable and less functional without companionship than I would be going between temporary joy and temporary sorrow until I find eternal joy with someone. Also, I find it kind of strange that people think that somehow this magically changes when you're back from your mission and in college, like somehow college has fewer responsibilities than high school simply because you can have a relationship. That's a funny joke, haha. Where's that laugh button I've seen everyone complain about there not being?

4. Even so, wouldn't you rather spare yourself the heartache and wait till those you date are prepared for relationships too? That's why we have these guidelines!

Like I said before, I'd rather date someone and be happy for a little while and break up and be unhappy for a little while until I find someone who I'm always happy with, as opposed to being stoic for my teenage years. That's what made me so sad to begin with. Not to mention I've always looked for mature people to fall in love with. If they weren't mature, we'd break up, and I'd learn from the mistake. Life goes on.

5. What about the temptation of lust? Doesn't that magnify itself while steady dating? This is why teens should stay away from it.

This comes down to choices. If you're immature and amassed with hormones (ages 13-15), then yes, this is a very bad idea. However, for me anyway, about 90% of the hormone issues were gone by the time I turned 16. This is probably why teens should not date AT ALL until they are 16. Now, there is also the argument that Satan will twist your love into sexual desire as your relationship becomes closer. Yes, this is a temptation, but we must again become aware of our agency and hold fast in righteousness. This may be hard for a lot of teens but it's certainly not an impossible endeavor. Additionally, I have found that lust has been presenting itself much, MUCH more in non-committed people. I have an LDS friend who does ncmo's (non-committed make outs) with female friends of his. I'd say that's more destructive than being in love. It also comes down to personal susceptibility again. If you feel you are too weak to withstand the temptations a relationship can create, then don't start one.

6. But wait! You said you're going on a mission. Won't thinking of your girlfriend impede you from doing the Lord's work?

Not with the right attitude. This comes down to a matter of personal choice and responsibility. When you go on your mission, you have to set aside your affections and sacrifice your life wholly to serving the Lord. I have heard many stories from many missionaries about guys who set up shrines to their girlfriends, one even made a pillowcase with a photo print of her on it (LOL!). That sort of thing is what is dangerous and wrong. I have prepared myself emotionally for when I leave. I understand that I'll only be able to contact her through writing, and that's fine by both of us. Frankly, that's not very different from how we're doing things now since we're a long distance couple. Additionally, we won't have that physical tension of being apart because, again, it's long distance and we're already apart. (She lives in North Carolina by the way). I plan on keeping my love for her deep in my heart while I serve the Lord, not letting it pour out and impede the work.

7. You're forgetting, Sean. What if she can't maintain her emotions on her end of the equation? What if she decides she wants to date other people?

That is also very subjective and is a matter of personal choice. Kelly has told me that she wants to remain loyal to me while I'm gone. She's not interested in anyone else. There have been times where we've nearly broke up where she has said that she didn't want to date anyone else at the time, it was because she didn't feel ready for a relationship. That has since changed (obviously), but it goes to show how much she has loved and still loves me.

8. Aha! I've got you now! How do you both know she won't find someone more compatible with herself?

This is entirely possible, but... Personally, I believe that any man and any woman can come together despite their differences and fall in love with each other because love conquers all when you work at it. Also, even though the new person may harmonize better, I find that more growth can be achieved by accepting and loving someone else who doesn't have all the same interests. It shows profound tolerance and strength in spirit to love someone romantically for being what you are not. Frankly, I think breaking up with someone because of perceived "incompatibility" is the easy way out, and a lot of times is no better than a petty divorce. A little forgiveness and understanding can go a long way to preserve love. That said, OF COURSE it's important to have shared interests. But think of love as a Venn diagram. We both have things we like to do that the other may not, but we also have quite a few overlapping interests and opinions. I think it's unwise to look for your personality clone in a spouse because the more different you are, the more acceptance you develop and the more diverse you can grow while still having those similar interests to bind you together.

9. Ok, but back to the mission. What'll you do if she Dear Johns you? Surely that will make you too emotional to serve!

This was part of my emotional preparation. If that were to happen, yes, of course I'd be distraught. But given that I'm being righteous I would turn to Heavenly Father to help me keep my emotions in check so that I can serve, after I've done all that I can do. Nothing can stand in my way by the grace of God. I would also pray constantly for things to work out for me when I get back, since everything happens for a reason, even break ups.

If I missed any, post them below. =D

Edited July 6, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[gabelpa]

Ok, you asked for it. Here is my Reason 10.

Who do you think you are, to call in to question counsel given by the General Authorities? Are you better than they are? Do you think that somehow, what they say doesn't apply to you, because you are "special" or "different"?

It's not about the objections, or the reasons. If you are going to go on your Mission, there is one thing you need to learn. There is only one principle, only one thing upon which the Universe works, even down to you. That principle is obedience.

Obedience is the first law under Heaven. It is how the stars and worlds were formed. It is how Jesus Christ Atoned for our Sins. It is how we will obtain Immortality and Eternal Life. How can you expect to learn and to grow, progress in this life and the next, if you are unwilling to obey even the first law of heaven?

[FunkyTown]

Ouch, Gabbie. Little harsh.

To the OP: Right now, we're at a bit of a crossroads. Based upon your well-reasoned and intelligent rebuttals to specific arguments, it's clear that you've made up your mind on this.

What I want you to do is to step out of your situation. Right now, absolutely no arguments made are going to make sense to you. This is normal and it happens to a lot of people both young and old. Instead, I want you to step out of your shoes and instead step in to my shoes as I analyze what you've said:

I don't know you.

The only thing I know about you is what you've posted on your admittedly passionate and well-reasoned letter.

I have some concerns based on what you've posted:

When I was about 12 or 13 and started to hit puberty, all of this had an extremely adverse effect on me. From the start, I have always been very mature about love and dating and relationships. I knew my own capacity, but also that I couldn't date at the time. I also knew that for me, I wouldn't need to date to get to know many different people adequately because I made plans to make good, longtime friends. This includes possible prospects.

First of all, I don't want you to look at this like you. Instead, look at it from outside. The original post is saying that you've been very mature about love and dating and relationships. What you've posted here doesn't sound very mature at all. Instead, it sounds like you're one of those people who needs a relationship to feel fulfilled.

You've gone from one relationship you termed 'serious' to another.

You've admitted the first relationship was with somebody who was 'immature'.

You developed feelings again for a girl you haven't really met in years.

All this suggests you're the type of person to idealize your relationships and then, when the relationship doesn't live up to what it should, you get disparaged and abandon it. That suggests you, personally, need to develop.

Next quote that concerns me:

I find it rather disheartening and sometimes honestly quite judgmental the attitudes that are held by many of the members when it comes to teenagers dating steadily. I know that given my attitude change early on in life that I'm not like many of the teenagers around me and that I've gained a more responsible outlook on things. I've always felt that dating is something that should be taken seriously, and that friendships are the phase where you should get to know other people to see their mannerisms and whether or not you are attracted to them. I've also always felt that a relationship should be treated with the same amount of respect as would take place in a marriage, just without the additional privileges given in a marriage (sex? lol). I have also found a lot of the reasoning against steady dating can be solved by a matter of making good choices. Let me list some of my opinions of these.

I'm afraid of quite a lot in here. This person who posted this said that they had changed quite early on but didn't mention what drove the other person to seek a relationship permanently so early on. The quotes are so concentrated on you that it's easy to see that relationships are idealized for you and you seem to think if you are ready and righteous that the other person naturally will be as well.

That isn't true. Nor will you naturally know the answer.

The long and short of it is this:

When you go on your mission, you will grow a lot. This Kelly person may as well. When you come back, after 2 years she may be a completely different person and so may you. Or you may be a completely different person and realize she isn't the one.

Either way, if you care about this person, it would be best to keep things light until after your mission.

I know me, however, and I know that if someone were to say that to me when I'd made my mind up, there's no way I would have listened.

Ok, you asked for it. Here is my Reason 10.

Who do you think you are, to call in to question counsel given by the General Authorities? Are you better than they are? Do you think that somehow, what they say doesn't apply to you, because you are "special" or "different"?

It's not about the objections, or the reasons. If you are going to go on your Mission, there is one thing you need to learn. There is only one principle, only one thing upon which the Universe works, even down to you. That principle is obedience.

Obedience is the first law under Heaven. It is how the stars and worlds were formed. It is how Jesus Christ Atoned for our Sins. It is how we will obtain Immortality and Eternal Life. How can you expect to learn and to grow, progress in this life and the next, if you are unwilling to obey even the first law of heaven?

[gabelpa]

I like your well-thought out response Funky. As usual you make the rest of us sound like raving schoolchildren. I'm still waiting to see what PrinceofLight2000 has to say regarding my point #10

I hope he puts as much thought in to it as he has his first post.

[Hemidakota]

Ok, you asked for it. Here is my Reason 10.

Who do you think you are, to call in to question counsel given by the General Authorities? Are you better than they are? Do you think that somehow, what they say doesn't apply to you, because you are "special" or "different"?

It's not about the objections, or the reasons. If you are going to go on your Mission, there is one thing you need to learn. There is only one principle, only one thing upon which the Universe works, even down to you. That principle is obedience.

Obedience is the first law under Heaven. It is how the stars and worlds were formed. It is how Jesus Christ Atoned for our Sins. It is how we will obtain Immortality and Eternal Life. How can you expect to learn and to grow, progress in this life and the next, if you are unwilling to obey even the first law of heaven?

Truly it is the first law of Heaven is OBEDIENCE. President George Q. Cannon stated;

Obedience a most important principle. No principle pertaining to the Gospel is of greater importance than obedience, for without obedience no blessing can come upon the people. Men may talk all their lives about their faith; but, if they do not obey, they can not obtain the promised blessings. For instance, a man may say that he believes in Jesus and that He is the Son of God; he may believe in baptism and the laying on of hands; but can he get his sins remitted or receive the Holy Ghost if he should not obey baptism or the laying on of hands? . . .

What is the nature of the obedience that children should show to their parents? Can they stop and argue with them and say, when they are told to do a certain thing: "Father, or mother, would it not be better to do this in some other way?" No well-behaved child will do this, but he will go promptly and do what is required of him. Children may not understand everything their parents ask them to do; but still this should not prevent them from obeying. Parents ask their children to do many things which they, probably, fully understand but which their children do not. A child who has good parents and has been properly trained has faith that its parents will ask it to do nothing but what is right, and the spirit of obedience is so strong within it that it goes without hesitation and obeys their commands.

It is in this manner that God should be obeyed. To begin with, we must have faith in Him. When we have a proper degree of faith, it is easy and joyful to obey every requirement of God, whether we understand it or not. God's ways cannot be fully understood by man; they are frequently beyond our comprehension; though if we try to do as He tells us, He gives us such pleasure and peace that we are convinced we are right. . . .

It is this kind of faith and obedience that is needed in these days. God has given us a Prophet to lead us. We must obey him, if we would have the blessing of God to rest upon us. Never let doubts arise in your hearts about him or his teachings and counsels; for, if Satan can persuade you to doubt, he has gained a great victory over you, and he will lead you captive as he will. (Sept. 25, 1869, JI 4:156)

As always, returning to the old church phrase, "There is safety in following the prophet. He will not lead you astray."

Finding Safety in Counsel

in Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, 1997, May

...such a blessed time. Looking for the path to safety in the counsel of prophets makes sense to those with strong faith. When... to safety. That blessing generally requires the faith to follow counsel when it is hard to do. An example from Church history is...

Safety in Counsel

in Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, 2008, June

...are. But the choice not to take prophetic counsel changes the very ground upon...point of spiritual exhaustion, members of faith will be there offering kind words and fellowship....following the prophet keep us safe? How might our own obedience affect the safety...

Edited July 6, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Suzie]

Ok, you asked for it. Here is my Reason 10.

Who do you think you are, to call in to question counsel given by the General Authorities? Are you better than they are?

Wow. Are the General Authorities better than him?

Ummm...he is a member just like you and me. He (like anyone else) can question anything he wants. Last time I checked, we are not slaves in a cult called Mormonism.

Geez.

For the person who opened the thread: Do what you think is right by receiving guidance from Heavenly Father and your desire to serve a mission. Listen to the words of counsel given to you and take everything into consideration. :)

Edited July 6, 2010 by Suzie

[Hemidakota]

Ouch, Gabbie. Little harsh.

The long and short of it is this:

When you go on your mission, you will grow a lot. This Kelly person may as well. When you come back, after 2 years she may be a completely different person and so may you. Or you may be a completely different person and realize she isn't the one.

Either way, if you care about this person, it would be best to keep things light until after your mission.

I know me, however, and I know that if someone were to say that to me when I'd made my mind up, there's no way I would have listened.

Perfect answer Funky...

[Hemidakota]

First off, before I create a massive controversial rift in the forum, let me give you some relevant background info on myself since I just joined. By the way, my name is Sean. =D

Sean, I welcome you to the forum.

[gabelpa]

Wow. Are the General Authorities better than him?

Ummm...he is a member just like you and me. He (like anyone else) can question anything he wants. Last time I checked, we are not slaves in a cult called Mormonism.

Geez.

For the person who opened the thread: Do what you think is right by receiving guidance from Heavenly Father and your desire to serve a mission. Listen to the words of counsel given to you and take everything into consideration. :)

The OP asked if he had missed any Commonly used LDS reasoning against steady dating after 16 and prior to mission:(his words)

and I gave him one. I will defer to Hemidakota, and the words of President George Q. Cannon already quoted by him.

As far as my first question, perhaps quoting all of it instead of pull-quotes. From an objective viewpoint, a youth wants to steady date. We have statements from the General Authorities, and by extension, a commandment from Heavenly Father that we are not to steady date under a specific set of circumstances. There are many human reasons listed, but the only reason that matters, is Heavenly Father has required it.

We can justify obediance, just the same as we can justify disobedience. Should we need to justify obedience, or is it enough that we obey.

Edited July 6, 2010 by gabelpa

[Suzie]

We have statements from the General Authorities, and by extension, a commandment from Heavenly Father that we are not to steady date under a specific set of circumstances. There are many human reasons listed, but the only reason that matters, is Heavenly Father has required it.

Actually I agree with you and your position on steady dating for young people.

However, are you suggesting that all the statements from General Authorities are commandments from Heavenly Father?

[FunkyTown]

Actually I agree with you and your position on steady dating for young people.

However, are you suggesting that all the statements from General Authorities are commandments from Heavenly Father?

Suzie? Can you and Gabs take this thread offline? I'm as guilty as the next person for derailing threads, but this could distract the OP from hearing the myriad answers to his original question.

[gabelpa]

Gladly :-)

[Suzie]

Suzie? Can you and Gabs take this thread offline? I'm as guilty as the next person for derailing threads, but this could distract the OP from hearing the myriad answers to his original question.

Sure, we may take it through PM. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

[MarginOfError]

1. You're crazy Sean! Don't you know that casual dating helps you get to know people better and helps you find traits to look for when you want to look for a spouse?

My dad used to tell me that I should date 50 different girls before I really consider getting married. I made it to 29. But the point was that a rich and varied social life is important for the development of a healthy emotional and social adolescent. Steady dating (what would be better termed courtship) tends to impede that development.

2. That may be true, but certainly dating steadily cannot bring you such information about what someone is like! Not to mention you will be faced with agonizing heartache if they're not what you thought!

I've never heard this argument before and would summarily reject it as well.

3. But you'd still be heartbroken. Teens don't need that while they're in high school or while preparing for missions, they have other responsibilities!

Heartbreak is actually a very important thing for adolescents to feel. Again, healthy adolescent development should include a wide variety of emotions.

4. Even so, wouldn't you rather spare yourself the heartache and wait till those you date are prepared for relationships too? That's why we have these guidelines!

Courtship is not the only way to experience heartache, however.

5. What about the temptation of lust? Doesn't that magnify itself while steady dating? This is why teens should stay away from it.

Your statement that those 13 - 15 are amassed with hormones with your implication that 16 - 18 year olds are not is scientifically fraudulent. Those same hormones will be raging all through adolescence. Biologically speaking, adolescence will continue until 23 - 25 years of age when puberty actually ends. At age 16, about all puberty has really done is activate your sexual organs and finish off the growth spurts. At your age, almost all of the changes you're going to experience are psychological.

One example that has been reported in psychological literature is the ability to evaluate long term decisions. In adolescent males, the ability to really consider long term outcomes doesn't normally develop until around age 21 - 23. That means that 16 - 18 year olds inherently weight short term outcomes (instant gratification) heavier than long term outcomes. This actually suggests that, at your age, making decisions about careers, family, marriage, etc. are things beyond your physiological ability to fully evaluate.

6. But wait! You said you're going on a mission. Won't thinking of your girlfriend impede you from doing the Lord's work?

No, girlfriends don't impede boys from being successful missionaries. Missionaries who can't stop obsessing over their girlfriends impede boys from being successful missionaries.

7. You're forgetting, Sean. What if she can't maintain her emotions on her end of the equation? What if she decides she wants to date other people?

Expecting or asking her to remain loyal to you while you serve a mission is unfair and destructive. Social interaction, exploration, and experimentation are a healthy part of social and emotional development at that age. If she abstains from dating (abstaining from courtship is different), she will be retarding her social and emotional development. This will affect her capacities as a wife and mother, and so in the long term would be just as bad for you as it would be for her.

8. Aha! I've got you now! How do you both know she won't find someone more compatible with herself?

Exactly why no expectations should be left between boys and girls when one goes on a mission. Get back together in a couple years and see where you stand then.

9. Ok, but back to the mission. What'll you do if she Dear Johns you? Surely that will make you too emotional to serve!

It sure would be easier to get that out of the way before hand. But I say that with my post adolescent mind, so what do I know?

[johnnylingo]

Casual dating is for teenagers, steady dating is for adults.

There isn't much of a time difference between age 17 and age 21- but there is a tremendous development of maturity during this turning period of your life (more so than between age 50 and 54). This is an important time, where you learn about yourself, you learn how to make difficult life decisions, you learn how to function without the guidance of your parents, where you emotionally mature.

This may sound a little condescending, but as a young adult, I can see how much I've grown in the last few years, and I am insanely grateful I didn't make any irreversible life-changing decisions when I was 17.

[NeuroTypical]

I'll get to the reason why I'm posting this.

...

I find it rather disheartening and sometimes honestly quite judgmental the attitudes that are held by many of the members when it comes to teenagers dating steadily.

Me too. But as long as you are a dependent child, relying on your parents to pay your bills, you'll be following their rules, judgmental or no.

LM

(wishing OP could have just posted that sentence, and spared us his life's story)

[MormonMama]

When I was 18 my boyfriend at the time and I had been dating for two years and were sure we were going to get married. Our families were sure we were going to get married. All our friends were sure we were going to get married. By the time I was 19 we were both dating other people.

In almost every case when someone says they're more mature than others, their words prove otherwise. Out of all the times I have heard someone say that, I only know one person whose words proved them true. I have to say that, based on your posts, you sound pretty much like every other teenager out there to me. I remember at that age I thought I was so much more mature than most people around me, even than many adults I knew. Now, at the age of 37, I can look back and see that I was just like everyone else. I really had myself fooled. It's often hard, if not impossible, to view ourselves in a truly unbiased manner.

My advice to you is to have a heart-to-heart with Kelly and for both of you to agree that this relationship needs to be set aside while you are on your mission. She needs to not be left hanging for two years and you need to focus solely on serving the Lord. If your relationship truly has staying power, you will be able to pick it up again when you return from your mission. But if not, there are millions of fish in the sea and the Lord does not have only one person in mind for us as our eternal companions.

In all honesty, from what you've posted, it sounds like your experienced as an awkward 13-year-old who didn't seem to be attractive to the opposite sex has made you afraid that Kelly is it for you and you're afraid of letting this relationship go for fear that you'll never have another (and I'm sure that's not what's going through your mind, but based on your own words I'd say it's heavily in your subconscious). Trust me, as someone who was so awkward at 13 that boys "woofed" at me, there are plenty of other women you will meet in life that you could have a successful relationship with. Kelly is not the only one.

Set the relationship aside before you go on your mission, preferably NOW. Don't just put it on hold, actually end it. Then see where things stand when you get back from your mission.

[beefche]

I'm really curious if you have actually met, face-to-face, and dated any of these girls, including Kelly. From your post, it seems that the entire relationship has been online.

[crazypotato]

I'm really curious if you have actually met, face-to-face, and dated any of these girls, including Kelly. From your post, it seems that the entire relationship has been online.

Me too. You can't really get to know a person online or over the phone, even if you spend hours and hours.

It doesn't replace face to face meetings with them and their family.

Also, lots of teenagers now seem very clingy to each other. I think you feel safe having a girlfriend. Are you the type that fears being lonely? I caught the word lonely a lot in your post. Did you know that children of divorce tend to get more serious with the opposite sex in order to replace the feelings of loss and grief from a broken family/absent parent?

Anyone who feels lonely and goes looks to a boyfriend/girlfriend to fix that feeling is making themselves very vulnerable to the adversary.

If you are really lonely and have to have a girlfriend to escape the pain for loneliness, may I gently suggest that you turn to the Lord and try and have him be your best friend, ask him to fill your heart and help you with your loneliness, rather than an online person named Kelly. I am sure that she is a nice person, but she has faults, her family has crazy and annoying things about them, she is not perfect and you don't know everything about her imperfections. She will ultimately disappoint you (everyone does). No one can fix your loneliness but Christ.

Edited July 6, 2010 by crazypotato

[PrinceofLight2000]

Ok, you asked for it. Here is my Reason 10.

Who do you think you are, to call in to question counsel given by the General Authorities? Are you better than they are? Do you think that somehow, what they say doesn't apply to you, because you are "special" or "different"?

It's not about the objections, or the reasons. If you are going to go on your Mission, there is one thing you need to learn. There is only one principle, only one thing upon which the Universe works, even down to you. That principle is obedience.

Obedience is the first law under Heaven. It is how the stars and worlds were formed. It is how Jesus Christ Atoned for our Sins. It is how we will obtain Immortality and Eternal Life. How can you expect to learn and to grow, progress in this life and the next, if you are unwilling to obey even the first law of heaven?

What commandment am I not obeying? We are talking about guidelines. I'll defer to this post:

Actually I agree with you and your position on steady dating for young people.

However, are you suggesting that all the statements from General Authorities are commandments from Heavenly Father?

In the next post, bold = me.

Ouch, Gabbie. Little harsh.

To the OP: Right now, we're at a bit of a crossroads. Based upon your well-reasoned and intelligent rebuttals to specific arguments, it's clear that you've made up your mind on this.

What I want you to do is to step out of your situation. Right now, absolutely no arguments made are going to make sense to you. This is normal and it happens to a lot of people both young and old. Instead, I want you to step out of your shoes and instead step in to my shoes as I analyze what you've said:

I don't know you.

The only thing I know about you is what you've posted on your admittedly passionate and well-reasoned letter.

I have some concerns based on what you've posted:

First of all, I don't want you to look at this like you. Instead, look at it from outside. The original post is saying that you've been very mature about love and dating and relationships. What you've posted here doesn't sound very mature at all. Instead, it sounds like you're one of those people who needs a relationship to feel fulfilled.

Yes, I have a relationship for joy, but not to be fulfilled. If what you're saying is accurate, then the fact that I'm in love right now, and will still be in love while I'm gone, would ruin my service. Heavenly Father is what makes me fulfilled. Kelly does not replace Him in any way, shape, or form.

You've gone from one relationship you termed 'serious' to another.

Yes, I took it seriously. That does not mean the person I was dating took it seriously. If that was the case, we would break up. I would suffer for a little bit, but then move on. I addressed this in my OP.

You've admitted the first relationship was with somebody who was 'immature'.

See above. Also, I tried to make some distinctions between the one I have with Kelly and the one I had when I was 13. It was just a fling, even though I did take it seriously at the time.

You developed feelings again for a girl you haven't really met in years.

I have prayed about this extensively. Remember what I said before? Honesty is key to a long distance relationship. If Kelly is lying, she's lying. So be it. I will face that consequence when it comes about. However, Kelly and I have both received witness to the effect that neither of us are lying, and that who we say we are isn't very far from how we are in person. Please don't pass judgments on completely acceptable activities that are earnestly accompanied by divine guidance until you try them yourself.

All this suggests you're the type of person to idealize your relationships and then, when the relationship doesn't live up to what it should, you get disparaged and abandon it. That suggests you, personally, need to develop.

Actually, I'm not the one who abandons my relationships. I was never the one to perform the break up or even want a break up. I don't idealize them into a picture perfect frame of what I would like to see out of it, either. I'm very accepting of other people and their (worthy) choices and behaviors, and I'm willing to adjust myself to become compatible with them. I'm a very multi-faceted individual, and I'm not the only one who has said so.

Next quote that concerns me:

I'm afraid of quite a lot in here. This person who posted this said that they had changed quite early on but didn't mention what drove the other person to seek a relationship permanently so early on. The quotes are so concentrated on you that it's easy to see that relationships are idealized for you and you seem to think if you are ready and righteous that the other person naturally will be as well.

The point was that it was focused on me. I don't know how you deduced I ever got the idea that the person would and must be automatically as ready as I am for a relationship out of that. Secondly, does your point not work the same way in adults? But I guess what I'm really trying to get at here is that I'm willing to wait until the other person becomes as ready as I am.

That isn't true. Nor will you naturally know the answer.

No, I don't 'naturally' know the answer to anything. I have been praying and praying about this with each barricade Kelly and I would come across. Never once did I come to a stupor of thought about whether my relationship was on the correct path.

The long and short of it is this:

When you go on your mission, you will grow a lot. This Kelly person may as well. When you come back, after 2 years she may be a completely different person and so may you. Or you may be a completely different person and realize she isn't the one.

We have been together for three years now. If we have dated for this long, in the midst of our teenage years, and no significant change has occurred now to threaten our relationship, what makes you think these next two years will cause such a change?

Secondly, I'm going to question this silly idea that my entire personality will morph itself into something unrecognizable from what it was before I left. Will I be more educated in the scriptures? Yes. Will I be closer to Heavenly Father? Most definitely. But, I'll still have the same interests and the same mannerisms (not to mention this same courtship oriented desire I've had since I was 16) that fall into place with Heavenly Father's commandments that I do now. The only tendencies that will be gone are the evil ones, and I'm sure Kelly would want me rid of those as well.

Either way, if you care about this person, it would be best to keep things light until after your mission.

I know me, however, and I know that if someone were to say that to me when I'd made my mind up, there's no way I would have listened.

In this next quote, bold = me as well.

My dad used to tell me that I should date 50 different girls before I really consider getting married. I made it to 29. But the point was that a rich and varied social life is important for the development of a healthy emotional and social adolescent. Steady dating (what would be better termed courtship) tends to impede that development.

I would disagree with you here. Remember what I said about making friends? that would be my rich and varied social life. Having a girlfriend does not impede me from growing my rich and varied social life, because, like I said before, it comes through friendship for me.

I've never heard this argument before and would summarily reject it as well.

Heartbreak is actually a very important thing for adolescents to feel. Again, healthy adolescent development should include a wide variety of emotions.

Courtship is not the only way to experience heartache, however.

Yes, there are many ways. Death of a loved one, losing contact with friends, et cetera...

Your statement that those 13 - 15 are amassed with hormones with your implication that 16 - 18 year olds are not is scientifically fraudulent. Those same hormones will be raging all through adolescence. Biologically speaking, adolescence will continue until 23 - 25 years of age when puberty actually ends. At age 16, about all puberty has really done is activate your sexual organs and finish off the growth spurts. At your age, almost all of the changes you're going to experience are psychological.

You misread my statement here. I can only speak for myself. For me, personally, I stopped having the same kind of hormonal urges that take place throughout the teenage years, and I was able to mentally temper myself from letting them get the best of me. I'm not sure why this s, given your response, all I know it that it did happen. It may have something to do with my slightly off development since I was born three months premature.

One example that has been reported in psychological literature is the ability to evaluate long term decisions. In adolescent males, the ability to really consider long term outcomes doesn't normally develop until around age 21 - 23. That means that 16 - 18 year olds inherently weight short term outcomes (instant gratification) heavier than long term outcomes. This actually suggests that, at your age, making decisions about careers, family, marriage, etc. are things beyond your physiological ability to fully evaluate.

Does this automatically mean things will turn out for the worse or that my plans are not sound?

No, girlfriends don't impede boys from being successful missionaries. Missionaries who can't stop obsessing over their girlfriends impede boys from being successful missionaries.

Precisely what I tried to point out.

Expecting or asking her to remain loyal to you while you serve a mission is unfair and destructive. Social interaction, exploration, and experimentation are a healthy part of social and emotional development at that age. If she abstains from dating (abstaining from courtship is different), she will be retarding her social and emotional development. This will affect her capacities as a wife and mother, and so in the long term would be just as bad for you as it would be for her.

I didn't ask or expect anything from her. This is entirely her choice. She loves me. She does not wish to date anyone else. Frankly, even if she did want to date someone else, there wouldn't be much I could do about it, would there? This isn't up to me at all.

Exactly why no expectations should be left between boys and girls when one goes on a mission. Get back together in a couple years and see where you stand then.

You didn't address my argument under the question with this one.

It sure would be easier to get that out of the way before hand. But I say that with my post adolescent mind, so what do I know?

I'd be happier doing it the hard way.

Casual dating is for teenagers, steady dating is for adults.

There isn't much of a time difference between age 17 and age 21- but there is a tremendous development of maturity during this turning period of your life (more so than between age 50 and 54). This is an important time, where you learn about yourself, you learn how to make difficult life decisions, you learn how to function without the guidance of your parents, where you emotionally mature.

This may sound a little condescending, but as a young adult, I can see how much I've grown in the last few years, and I am insanely grateful I didn't make any irreversible life-changing decisions when I was 17.

What irreversible life-changing decision have I made, exactly? I may be committed to Kelly but we're not married yet. If things end up not working out, when we meet in person, I'll pick myself up and move on, just like I said earlier.

Me too. But as long as you are a dependent child, relying on your parents to pay your bills, you'll be following their rules, judgmental or no.

I am living under my mother's rules. She's never been opposed to me dating however I wanted to as long as I was of age and I didn't do anything inappropriate. I fail to see what distinction needs to be drawn between casual dating and steady dating in this regard. Lust is still lust, no matter who you are with or how often you see them.

LM

(wishing OP could have just posted that sentence, and spared us his life's story)

When I was 18 my boyfriend at the time and I had been dating for two years and were sure we were going to get married. Our families were sure we were going to get married. All our friends were sure we were going to get married. By the time I was 19 we were both dating other people.

This is subjective. When I date, I don't have interest in other people. I might find them attractive, but that's as far as it will go.

In almost every case when someone says they're more mature than others, their words prove otherwise. Out of all the times I have heard someone say that, I only know one person whose words proved them true. I have to say that, based on your posts, you sound pretty much like every other teenager out there to me. I remember at that age I thought I was so much more mature than most people around me, even than many adults I knew. Now, at the age of 37, I can look back and see that I was just like everyone else. I really had myself fooled. It's often hard, if not impossible, to view ourselves in a truly unbiased manner.

I hope to be the second one.

My advice to you is to have a heart-to-heart with Kelly and for both of you to agree that this relationship needs to be set aside while you are on your mission. She needs to not be left hanging for two years and you need to focus solely on serving the Lord. If your relationship truly has staying power, you will be able to pick it up again when you return from your mission. But if not, there are millions of fish in the sea and the Lord does not have only one person in mind for us as our eternal companions.

That's exactly what's going to happen. Sure, we're still technically together, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be focused on her instead of the work. I thought I made that clear enough. Secondly, it's not like I'm going to be having smoochy-smoochy lovey-dovey fantasies about us together while I'm there either. I said I prepared myself. I know the extent to which we will be able to communicate and how I should behave to keep my emotions in check. What difference would the title of boyfriend/girlfriend make as long as I'm doing what's expected of me on the field?

In all honesty, from what you've posted, it sounds like your experienced as an awkward 13-year-old who didn't seem to be attractive to the opposite sex has made you afraid that Kelly is it for you and you're afraid of letting this relationship go for fear that you'll never have another (and I'm sure that's not what's going through your mind, but based on your own words I'd say it's heavily in your subconscious). Trust me, as someone who was so awkward at 13 that boys "woofed" at me, there are plenty of other women you will meet in life that you could have a successful relationship with. Kelly is not the only one.

I'm not afraid of never having another relationship again. I could create another easily. I love Kelly, and I treasure this relationship. Kelly may not have to be the only one, but why should she not be in the end? Right now I see no reason for that. We've been together for three years and have struck down each adversity. Should something of concern come up, however, we'll cross that bridge (any differences we may have) if and when we come to it.

Set the relationship aside before you go on your mission, preferably NOW. Don't just put it on hold, actually end it. Then see where things stand when you get back from your mission.

Like I said before, what real difference would a title make? If she wanted to date others, I have no doubt she would. She would Dear John me, and I would keep my emotions in check.

Me too. You can't really get to know a person online or over the phone, even if you spend hours and hours.

This is judgmental. I have found that if one is entirely and openly honest about themselves online to the best of their ability, that they will turn out to be very close to what they say they are. If there are some larger differences not seen, they can be addressed in person. Also, do you think I don't plan on meeting with her physically for an extensive period of time post-mission before we decide 100% to get married? Sure, we want to get married now, but both of us realize we need to see each other in person long enough to make sure.

It doesn't replace face to face meetings with them and their family.

Also, lots of teenagers now seem very clingy to each other. I think you feel safe having a girlfriend. Are you the type that fears being lonely? I caught the word lonely a lot in your post. Did you know that children of divorce tend to get more serious with the opposite sex in order to replace the feelings of loss and grief from a broken family/absent parent?

I don't fear it, I despise it. Yes, it is true. My parents have divorced. My biological father has passed on. But don't jump to conclusions about my attitude just yet.

Anyone who feels lonely and goes looks to a boyfriend/girlfriend to fix that feeling is making themselves very vulnerable to the adversary.

You missed the part in my novel where I said I asked for guidance from Heavenly Father extensively before deciding to date. I will agree with you that it opens up the door to more temptations. But if I am able to withstand them, what harm is created?

If you are really lonely and have to have a girlfriend to escape the pain for loneliness, may I gently suggest that you turn to the Lord and try and have him be your best friend, ask him to fill your heart and help you with your loneliness, rather than an online person named Kelly. I am sure that she is a nice person, but she has faults, her family has crazy and annoying things about them, she is not perfect and you don't know everything about her imperfections. She will ultimately disappoint you (everyone does). No one can fix your loneliness but Christ.

Bold 1. This has already been done.

Bold 2. Is this not true for every couple, married or not, adolescent or not? Do you not find new faults and new challenges in marriage as well? the whole point is to overcome these little, petty, meaningless things to come to a greater love and understanding toward one another while cutting out the sins.

Bold 3. You just completely voided your argument with that little snippet. Do you have a crystal ball to be able to see into the future to know that Kelly will disappoint me as a girlfriend or a wife? I don't worship her. That's entirely out of the question.

By the way, everyone. Would you all like a recap after I get back from my mission? If all goes well, you'll have changed your opinions and be giving me best wishes instead.

Edited July 7, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[crazypotato]

PrinceofLight2000,

Did you really want advice, or did you just want us all to agree that you know exactly what you are doing and the rest of us are judgmental or wrong in some way, shape, or form?

It's your life, but you opened it up for examination. I am wondering why? It's true that we don't know you. But most of us have life experience and wisdom and are trying to HELP you, not put you down, just give you things to think about.

We are not your parents but your tone sounds like you are arguing with the dumber, older generation (i.e. 25 and up), hence, you sound like the teenager that you are.

Chill! I for one don't really enjoy making people feel bad about themselves.

[PrinceofLight2000]

PrinceofLight2000,

Did you really want advice, or did you just want us all to agree that you know exactly what you are doing and the rest of us are judgmental or wrong in some way, shape, or form?

It's your life, but you opened it up for examination. I am wondering why? It's true that we don't know you. But most of us have life experience and wisdom and are trying to HELP you, not put you down, just give you things to think about.

We are not your parents but your tone sounds like you are arguing with the dumber, older generation (i.e. 25 and up), hence, you sound like the teenager that you are.

Chill! I for one don't really enjoy making people feel bad about themselves.

I wasn't really looking for advice, no. More that I was addressing my concern that people do indeed cast judgment when it comes to this topic. If I remember correctly I only pointed out maybe two or three instances in the replies which I felt were judgmental.

Perhaps this should have gone in the doctrine forum? I'm not really sure. I just thought advice would be the best place to go because I wasn't looking to debate or discuss doctrine, and that these issues are quite personal.

By the way, any hint of sarcasm or condescension(sp?) in my responses are toward the statements, not toward the people. I'm sure you guys are all great and are concerned about me, and I thank you for that.

[crazypotato]

Prince,

I wish you the best in your life. If everyone opened their dating life up to the public I am sure we would all find things to criticize about each other.

Maybe your question is whether the serious dating thing is doctrine or counsel, and if so, what is the difference?

Do you have to follow the counsel in the pamphlet, "For the Strength of Youth" that advices against serious dating? Maybe that is your core question that was lost because your OP is kind of long and has a lot of information in it.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Prince,

I wish you the best in your life. If everyone opened their dating life up to the public I am sure we would all find things to criticize about each other.

Maybe your question is whether the serious dating thing is doctrine or counsel, and if so, what is the difference?

Do you have to follow the counsel in the pamphlet, "For the Strength of Youth" that advices against serious dating? Maybe that is your core question that was lost because your OP is kind of long and has a lot of information in it.

I suppose a good way to put it would be, "Am I sinning if I decide to steady date, which goes against what's in the pamphlet?"

And am I still considered a youth since I'm 19 now? I've heard from numerous people that I can now steady date as much as I want since I'm able to be an elder.

And please, call me Sean. haha. I've gone by internet aliases for so long it becomes tiresome.

Edited July 7, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[Dravin]

Quoting Elder Oaks:

If you feel you are a special case, so that the strong counsel I have given doesn’t apply to you, please don’t write me a letter. Why would I make this request? I have learned that the kind of direct counsel I have given results in a large number of letters from members who feel they are an exception, and they want me to confirm that the things I have said just don’t apply to them in their special circumstance.

...

As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules. For example, we believe the commandment is not violated by killing pursuant to a lawful order in an armed conflict. But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Dating versus Hanging Out