Bishop being killed has me so upset

[pooter1]

Here is my problem with all of this. Miracles happen everyday.I have seen so many of them in my lifetime.Why did an angel or something happen to save this Bishop. Was this his time to go?My husband says everyone has an appointed time of death.Was this his? We can pray all we want but it will be Gods will no matter what we pray for. I believe there are no coincedents(probably mispelled that) everything that happens is for a reason.I just hope we hear some good that came out of this horrible tragedy.

[gabelpa]

Crap happens every day. Terrible things happen to good people, if you are relying on a miracle to save your sorry backside, do not be surprised when no angel comes to whisk you away from certain doom.

We are here, not to bask in glory and good times, but to be tested and tried to our very limits. This life is not a happy go lucky time, it is the refiners fire, the sculptors chisel. How can we expect to prove ourselves worthy if we are not pushed to breaking point?

[MarginOfError]

Here is my problem with all of this. Miracles happen everyday.I have seen so many of them in my lifetime.Why did an angel or something happen to save this Bishop. Was this his time to go?My husband says everyone has an appointed time of death.Was this his? We can pray all we want but it will be Gods will no matter what we pray for. I believe there are no coincedents(probably mispelled that) everything that happens is for a reason.I just hope we hear some good that came out of this horrible tragedy.

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?"

I'm afraid I disagree, and I believe very strongly that coincidences do happen, and that not everything happens because it fits into God's divine plan.

People do awful things to each other. And man is very capable of thwarting God's work (we do it every day we delay our repentance). At best, this is evidence of the imperfect state of mortal man. At worst, it is evidence of the awful and dark side of the blessing of agency.

[TL10]

Here is my problem with all of this. Miracles happen everyday.I have seen so many of them in my lifetime.Why did an angel or something happen to save this Bishop. Was this his time to go?My husband says everyone has an appointed time of death.Was this his? We can pray all we want but it will be Gods will no matter what we pray for. I believe there are no coincedents(probably mispelled that) everything that happens is for a reason.I just hope we hear some good that came out of this horrible tragedy.

I have to admit, reading the initial article was disheartening for me. You'd think everybody would be safe in the Lord's house. I questioned god alot for letting some of my loved ones move on to the spiritual world when I personally really needed their guidance in my life. But there is a purpose for everything. I wouldn't be surprised God is doing this for somebody in that church who needs to undergo testing trials of his own.

[bytor2112]

Perhaps the Bishop was called home to minister to the man who took his life.

[gabelpa]

Perhaps the Bishop was called home to minister to the man who took his life.

Now that's a bit taking the long road when a shorter road would be more efficient kind of thing isn't it?

[Traveler]

Here is my problem with all of this. Miracles happen everyday.I have seen so many of them in my lifetime.Why did an angel or something happen to save this Bishop. Was this his time to go?My husband says everyone has an appointed time of death.Was this his? We can pray all we want but it will be Gods will no matter what we pray for. I believe there are no coincedents(probably mispelled that) everything that happens is for a reason.I just hope we hear some good that came out of this horrible tragedy.

The passing from this life and returning to that G-d that gave them life is never a bad thing for the righteous. I number such a thing as the greatest miracle possible for mortals. It may be difficult for those that remain behind but only if they choose to make it so. I would also suggest you read from the LDS Bible dictionary about prayer. It is through prayer we become in tune with divine will (not change divine will). It is also through prayer that we enable blessing being reserved for those that pray.

The Traveler

[GaySaint]

Angel: I look at it this way…

The Lord has given us agency so that we can learn what we need to learn here in life, so that we can become more like God. Those who abuse their agency will need to be held accountable for their actions. While I’m certain God knew what was going to happen to this bishop, by whom, and why, he cannot interfere with the agency of another person.

Imagine if an angel would have descended to save the bishop. Would the Lord then be able to hold the shooter accountable at judgment, if he actually HADN’T made the choice, and pulled the trigger? Sure, I’m certain the Lord could claim that it was the man’s INTENT to pull the trigger, but if the act had actually not been done, would it be fair for the Lord to hold him accountable for it?

I do think sometimes the Lord interferes when his purposes are needed to be fulfilled, and those purposes are more important than agency – but I believe those circumstances are few and far between.

Because the Lord did NOT interfere, the shooter will be held fully accountable for his actions at the time of judgment. He could not be held accountable to the same degree had someone interfered.

[NeuroTypical]

Righteous rarely equals bulletproof. We read in scripture where sometimes it does, but the other 99.9% of the time, it doesn't.

The world is a dangerous place. In any given community, of any size, in any state or country on the planet - there is a small percentage of people who will attempt to do serious harm to someone else, given the right set of circumstances. Usually, (at least, here in America) this percentage tends to keep to themselves and kill each other and the police over drug deals or crime or what have you. But sometimes it spills into our happy sheltered world and makes it less happy for a time.

Part of me hopes our Church leaders will change their policy about concealed weapons because of this event. Part of me wishes such a change wasn't necessary, and that a church really did offer protection besides that offered from cultural expectation. But most of me just understands that the world can be a deadly place. My place in it is guided by scripture:

"And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion."

- Alma 43:47

"We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded."

- Doctrine and Covenants 134:11

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

- D&C 64:10

LM

Edited August 31, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Saguaro]

Perhaps the Bishop was called home to minister to the man who took his life.

There is a widow and 6 boys without a father who would probably disagree with you. It's offensive to me to imply that ministering to one person in the spirit world could be more important than being a husband and a father on this earth.

[bytor2112]

There is a widow and 6 boys without a father who would probably disagree with you. It's offensive to me to imply that ministering to one person in the spirit world could be more important than being a husband and a father on this earth.

It wasn't meant to be offensive and he will again be a husband and a father on this earth...an Eternal one.

[PrinceofLight2000]

There is a widow and 6 boys without a father who would probably disagree with you. It's offensive to me to imply that ministering to one person in the spirit world could be more important than being a husband and a father on this earth.

It wasn't meant to be offensive and he will again be a husband and a father on this earth...an Eternal one.

I'd just like to share that I lost my father when I was 13. He had bad depression, and it finally got the best of him. He took his own life, though I don't believe he was in his right mind when he did. As I look back, I realize more and more that he was inspired, and everything he told me while he was alive wasn't as important then, but it applies to almost everything I'm going through now.

I think these things happen for a reason. My father did his job. I have no reason to believe that these children won't have a similar outcome to what I had.

It reminds me of how Martin Harris lost the manuscripts of the plates of Lehi. It was because of his and Joseph's choices that the plates got lost, but Heavenly Father in His infinite wisdom had anticipated this and commanded Nephi to copy an account of Lehi's writings into his own.

I think Heavenly Father does the same to counsel children who lose their parents in an untimely manner, for any reason.

Edited September 2, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[MichaelCraig]

I believe the Lord interfered with the events that took place one night in my early 20's when the car I was a passenger in ran off a dirt country road, flipped over and over about 5 times breaking every glass in the car except the driver door window, and then it hit a telephone pole...on it's roof. There was a veteran state patrolman there who told me that he has never in his 20+ yr career observed a wreck that bad where the people were not injured really bad or killed. The driver and I had not one punture mark from the flying glass, not one single bruise from the tumbling, not one broken bone. Neither of us were wearing seat belts. When I awoke, I'm assuming after going into shock, the first thing my eyes focused on was the roofs dome light because I was laying on the roof and the light was under my arm when I came to and it was smashed all to pieces. I lost a shoe and found it sticking out from under the trunk stuck in the mud right before they pulled the veh out of the ditch and flipped it back on it's tires. Why? I stand only 3 ft 6 inches tall and with both windshields out and three door windows why am I still alive? I know it was for a reason and I promise it's not because I was a good boy. It doesn't work that way. The Bishops death proves this. That was the most blatant, in my face...HI I'M THE LORD...and I'M IN TOTAL CONTROL incident I've ever experienced in my life. You can argue the law of physics all you want but I believe it was someone who has the power to break that law of physics any time He wants because He created it. That one event changed my agency big time and holds it strong to this day. It changed my life forever.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I believe the Lord interfered with the events that took place one night in my early 20's when the car I was a passenger in ran off a dirt country road, flipped over and over about 5 times breaking every glass in the car except the driver door window, and then it hit a telephone pole...on it's roof. There was a veteran state patrolman there who told me that he has never in his 20+ yr career observed a wreck that bad where the people were not injured really bad or killed. The driver and I had not one punture mark from the flying glass, not one single bruise from the tumbling, not one broken bone. Neither of us were wearing seat belts. When I awoke, I'm assuming after going into shock, the first thing my eyes focused on was the roofs dome light because I was laying on the roof and the light was under my arm when I came to and it was smashed all to pieces. I lost a shoe and found it sticking out from under the trunk stuck in the mud right before they pulled the veh out of the ditch and flipped it back on it's tires. Why? I stand only 3 ft 6 inches tall and with both windshields out and three door windows why am I still alive? I know it was for a reason and I promise it's not because I was a good boy. It doesn't work that way. The Bishops death proves this. That was the most blatant, in my face...HI I'M THE LORD...and I'M IN TOTAL CONTROL incident I've ever experienced in my life. You can argue the law of physics all you want but I believe it was someone who has the power to break that law of physics any time He wants because He created it. That one event changed my agency big time and holds it strong to this day. It changed my life forever.

Are you a little person? I'm not sure what you meant by this.

[LadyZephyr]

When I first heard the news of the bishop's murder I agonized for his family and ward. I prayed for them and empathized with their pain.

As I have been puzzling over this issue, what comes to my mind is this:

What is the purpose of a student pilot's solo flight?

If the student encounters difficulty at a high altitude, they cannot turn to an instructor beside them to resolve the situation for them, they must handle it on their own and experience the consequences of nature, mechanics and flukes that go awry.

Most solo flights go ok, but a few have difficult/disasterous circumstances.

Mortal life seems often to be a solo flight, proving us qualified to handle whatever comes our way and to advance to the next level. We are alone in the cockpit, but like the student flyer, we have contact with the tower through radio/prayer, our own preperation and experince, gifts/abilities/talents (compass and other instruments) given to us by our Heavenly Father and the desire to suceed.

Why then do some experince heavenly intervention in their lives that saves them from death and injury, while others suffer these things? Surely, the righteous would qualify for such protection?

We must remember that we look at our lives through the lenses of mortals, while Heaven guides, aids and takes us, based on their critera, their plans, and our own individual mortal life missions. We do not know these criteria now, but we hope to understand them better when we reach the next life.

Events in a person's life might arise that would set him off track to complete his mortal mission, and Heaven might intervine to set his path aright.

Whereas, a person might be sent to Earth to learn, love, obtain experience, procreate and fulfill his mission and experience a death that would deeply touch many and cause them to reflect upon their own lives. This may have been part of the bishop's life's mission. We do not know.

We do know that Heaven's critera includes the Eternal Plan; while we as mortals find priority in extending mortal life, Heaven understands that mortal life, like the solo flight of the student pilot, is brief and temporary, and but a stepping stone to greater things.

If Heaven had our mortal priorities, every rightous person would receive divine intervention against all injury and death. That's just not how life goes. Therefore we can conclude that Heaven is working on greater criteria and in our best intrests.

We can rest easier knowing that our life plan is in the control of supreme gods, and not mortal direction.

Those left behind will be cared for and complete their own mortal missions to rejoin their loved ones who have preceeded them in death, which is after all, simply the doorway to a greater level in the eternal scheme of things. Though we will sorrow at the parting of loved ones, we rejoice in the happiness that awaits the righteous and in God's Eternal Plan for us.

[pam]

stand only 3 ft 6 inches tall

Are you a little person? I'm not sure what you meant by this.

He said exactly what he meant.

[PrinceofLight2000]

He said exactly what he meant.

I figured as much, although I wasn't sure if he was talking about the standing height of the car, or his own.

[Elphaba]

Now that's a bit taking the long road when a shorter road would be more efficient kind of thing isn't it?

I think it was poignant.

Elph

[yorkiebeebs]

I believe that from the moment we are born we have an appointed time to return to the Father. My parents both died young and left a large family behind. They both died in accidents 2 years apart. I believe that they were here as long as they were intended to be here.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I believe that from the moment we are born we have an appointed time to return to the Father. My parents both died young and left a large family behind. They both died in accidents 2 years apart. I believe that they were here as long as they were intended to be here.

I wouldn't say "intended", because I don't think Heavenly Father intends for anyone to die early. But I'm sure they did everything that they needed to do during their time, one way or another via His greatness.

[LadyZephyr]

I believe that from the moment we are born we have an appointed time to return to the Father. My parents both died young and left a large family behind. They both died in accidents 2 years apart. I believe that they were here as long as they were intended to be here.

Indeed.

Mortality was not designed to be survived.

Edited September 2, 2010 by LadyZephyr

[pam]

I believe that from the moment we are born we have an appointed time to return to the Father.

Let me get a clarification on this. When you state appointed time, do you mean it is already established when we will die at the time of our birth?

Is so, I would disagree. My opinion is that takes away agency. If we follow the commandments we can expect or anticipate that we will be protected until we finish what we need to do on this earth.

If we don't, we lose the influence of the spirit and can become subject to our own errors and suffer the consequences.

In your parents case, it was as you stated. Accidents.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Let me get a clarification on this. When you state appointed time, do you mean it is already established when we will die at the time of our birth?

Is so, I would disagree. My opinion is that takes away agency. If we follow the commandments we can expect or anticipate that we will be protected until we finish what we need to do on this earth.

If we don't, we lose the influence of the spirit and can become subject to our own errors and suffer the consequences.

In your parents case, it was as you stated. Accidents.

Thanks for pointing out something I didn't notice, pam.

The time isn't appointed, but it is known by Heavenly Father. So He makes preparations before that happens by inspiring the person it's going to happen to, so that no one around that person misses something that that person was supposed to show them.

I'll conjoin this statement with my previous post.

Edited September 2, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[BenRaines]

Prince of Light, is this belief based on scripture or personal inspiration? Please understand that I am not making a personal attack just curious what this personal belief is based on.

Ben Raines

[Vanhin]

Well, I think it can be established from the scriptures that people can have an appointment to die.

For example, the scriptures teach us that a priesthood blessing will heal a person if he has faith, but only if he is not appointed to die at that time.

And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed. (D&C 42:48)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited September 2, 2010 by Vanhin