Income Disparity Series

[prisonchaplain]

Since you are ideologically opposed to Moksha obviously your charity is suspect.

If only Democrats, Socialists, and those who believe companies are inherently sinful (along with capitalism) are righteous, I fear for both LDS and AoG!

[FunkyTown]

Generally liberals will be heavy-handed in determining the answer to that, through aggressive taxation and regulation. Conservatives will be much more reticent to interfere with the legal operations of companies because they are supposedly making too much, paying too little, or somehow not taking care of their local communities enough. You appear more liberal than I in this equation. Fair enough?

Fair enough.

I am concerned, however, PC - History, during the deregulated years, seems to support me that many companies are predatory. If we go to deregulated times such as during the 1800s or 1700s, we get companies like the coal mines that ran with minimal safety precautions, running a company store that puts people in debt the more they work and running what is basically legalized slavery. Government stepped in to end that.

Child labor laws were brought in by the government - Laws that companies as recent as Nike sidestepped by going to countries where it wasn't illegal.

NIKE and Child Labor

Notice that this occurs in a place where the government has taken little action to combat it.

PC - I am not using a caricature when I say that corporations are mostly creatures of Mammon made righteous only by the chains placed around their neck. I firmly believe that People are sinful, PC, and I think that scripture backs me up on that one. Companies are run by people and companies are a fine way to garner quick power.

As I've said before, the poor are just as greedy and self-serving as the rich. They are just as predatory. The rich, however, are more successful at being greedy, self-serving and predatory.

The government is also just as greedy, self-serving and predatory as the rich and the poor because the government is also run by people.

In the past, the bulk of power lay with Kings and Emperors. People were made poor. They were stepped upon. The powerful did as they would. This filled people with rage and there has been a push for the decentralization of power. Emperors and Kings have fallen.

In their power void, companies have stepped forward. And they are getting more and more successful at controlling the purse strings that run the world. Do we blissfully allow them to continue, the balance of wealth(And thus power) becoming more and more concentrated in the hands of the few or do we figure a better way to find balance?

What do you think the long-term consequences will be if we do nothing? If wealth simply continues to accumulate more and more in the hands of unelected officials?

[prisonchaplain]

Fair enough.

I am concerned, however, PC - History, during the deregulated years, seems to support me that many companies are predatory. If we go to deregulated times such as during the 1800s or 1700s, we get companies like the coal mines that ran with minimal safety precautions, running a company store that puts people in debt the more they work and running what is basicallylegalized slavery. Government stepped in to end that.]

History will always seem to support you because government will not take action when companies operate well and with balance. Every case of intervention will seem to bolster your point, and there is no history book entitled "Cases when government did not have to step in because these companies did right."

Government has a role to play. So do unions in some cases. Also, understand that the wealthier a society is the more we look back and believe the companies of yesteryear were horrible. Could it not have been at least partially that times were harder?

Child labor laws were brought in by the government - Laws that companies as recent as Nike sidestepped by going to countries where it wasn't illegal.

NIKE and Child Labor

Relative to local companies, how is Nike treating its workforce? Were those children in nice schools before Nike came? Did Nike thugs sneek into those schools, kidnap the kids, and strap them to machines in the factories? OR...perhaps Nike is paying better than the surrounding companies, giving families an upwardly mobile track, so that maybe the next generation's kids can go to school? This is speculation. However, it's so easy for us to impose our standards on other countries, without catching the local realities. My guess is that those Nike jobs are eagerly sought after, and the workers who get them may well feel they have won a lottery.

PC - I am not using a caricature when I say that corporations are mostly creatures of Mammon made righteous only by the chains placed around their neck. I] firmly believe that People are sinful, PC, and I think that scripture backs me up on that one. Companies are run by people and companies are a fine way to garner quick power.

Unlike government, companies generally reward production. Heavy regulation systems can become a corruption of their own. And yes, sometimes companies will cut corners on safety for profit. This appears to be the case with the recent BP disaster (though I am no expert).

There's no denying the need for government regulation, and sometimes intervention. I'm merely counseling much forethought and caution. Often such actions have worse consequences than the problems the attempt to rememdy.

What do you think the long-term consequences will be if we do nothing? If wealth simply continues to accumulate more and more in the hands of unelected officials?

We're in unusual times, so it's now harder to answer that question than even four years ago. Up until the recent disaster it did seem that the rich were getting richer, but the poor were too. Now we are stymied. Our (US) president's efforts to use government to jump start the situation seem to be laying the ground work for decades of government debt. Doing nothing may have been worse. Many argue so.

At this point I remain conservative. Government should be cautious about stepping in. It may have to. However, slow, steady and thoughtful...not quickly and haphazzardly.

[Just_A_Guy]

A hypothetical:

If I confess a man-crush on Prisonchaplain, will I be excommunicated from the FunkyTown Fan Club?

[prisonchaplain]

A hypothetical:

If I confess a man-crush on Prisonchaplain, will I be excommunicated from the FunkyTown Fan Club?

Yes!

[HoosierGuy]

This is speculation. However, it's so easy for us to impose our standards on other countries, without catching the local realities. My guess is that those Nike jobs are eagerly sought after, and the workers who get them may well feel they have won a lottery.

Lottery? I'm sure some feel that way. But not those making iPhones/iTouches who were jumping to their deaths at the factory they worked at.

I wonder how many fought for the right to send little kids down into the dirty mines back when they did that.

[beefche]

You do realize that the company where those deaths took place is not run by Apple? It's a Chinese owned factory who contracts with many companies to produce their products. So, find something else to build a diversion.

[HoosierGuy]

You do realize that the company where those deaths took place is not run by Apple? It's a Chinese owned factory who contracts with many companies to produce their products. So, find something else to build a diversion.

It's not a diversion because they were BUILDING THEM FOR APPLE!

In the words of Senator Bernie Sanders - We deregulated our good friends on Wall Street and seen they are a bunch of crooks. Doesn't that tell you something?

[pam]

It's not a diversion because they were BUILDING THEM FOR APPLE!

In the words of Senator Bernie Sanders - We deregulated our good friends on Wall Street and seen they are a bunch of crooks. Doesn't that tell you something?

Source please? I would like to see an exact quote of this.

Edited September 17, 2010 by pam

[HoosierGuy]

Source please? I would like to see an exact quote of this.

Exact quote from Bennie Sanders or that they are a bunch of crooks? Well, they are bunch of crooks. We've seen that. Watch the news.

[pam]

In the words of Senator Bernie Sanders - We deregulated our good friends on Wall Street and seen they are a bunch of crooks

You stated this. I would like to see his exact quote where he said this.

[beefche]

It's not a diversion because they were BUILDING THEM FOR APPLE!

In the words of Senator Bernie Sanders - We deregulated our good friends on Wall Street and seen they are a bunch of crooks. Doesn't that tell you something?

Then you better be upset with a bunch of other companies as well, including the parent company who employs the people (not Apple, in case you didn't understand). The company--who contracts with a bunch of other companies--was looking at their actions for the possible reasons for the suicides.

[mordorbund]

What about the child labor in our own back yard. The other day I was walking around a typical capitalist American mall and saw a factory where parents PAID to have their kids LABOR on the assembly line manufacturing teddy bears!!!!!

Perhaps we wouldn't be so upset at Nike if they had their own Build-a-Shoe Workshop.

[HoosierGuy]

What about the child labor in our own back yard. The other day I was walking around a typical capitalist American mall and saw a factory where parents PAID to have their kids LABOR on the assembly line manufacturing teddy bears!!!!!

Build a Bear is a cute and creative store.

I heard somewhere that the U.S. Government got 30% of it's total money from taxing companies in the 1960's It's shrunk since then and is around 7% or so. This must be reversed.

[Just_A_Guy]

Bear in mind, though, that

a) ExxonMobil's 2007 tax burden, alone, was still greater than the revenue from the bottom 50% of US taxpayers-combined;

b) The federal government's revenues alone have increased over two thousand-fold since World War 2. And yes, that is adjusting for inflation.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

Protectionism (don't buy from countries with bad social situations) and more taxation will not pull us out of this economic malaise. Such approaches may well deepend and lengthen this depression. You cannot pull up the poor by tearing down the rich.

[Just_A_Guy]

You cannot pull up the poor by tearing down the rich.

No, but that sense of righteous indignation sure feels nice.

[HoosierGuy]

Protectionism (don't buy from countries with bad social situations) and more taxation will not pull us out of this economic malaise. Such approaches may well deepend and lengthen this depression. You cannot pull up the poor by tearing down the rich.

From the Counter Punch site by David Rosen:

...as of 2004, the top 20 percent controlled 85 percent of the nation’s wealth.

David Rosen: The End of the American Century?

The Economic Policy Institute’s recent report, “State of Working America,” details America’s post-war ephemeral growth. It soberly details how, in the face of significant productivity gains, median household income remained stagnant. Most disturbing, it shows that wealth has increasingly gone to the top 5 percent (and especially the top 1%) of Americans; as of 2004, the top 20 percent controlled 85 percent of the nation’s wealth.

Ordinary Americans are suffering. EPI warns, “Today’s economic crisis finds America’s working families in an ever harder place. … [R]ecent developments are compounding a broader economic failure that has been not months or years, but decades in the making.”

* * *

The most disturbing graph in the EPI report is one that shows that in 2006, the top 1 percent controlled 23 percent of all income. What makes this so disturbing in that the super-rich have regained the position they held just prior to the 1929 stock market crash when they controlled 24 percent of all income. In the light of the current great recession, one can anticipate that the share controlled by the top 1 percent will have only increased. America has come full circle to a point when the American Century was not even a notion in Luce’s dreams. Have the forces of reaction set the stage for another Depression, a "new normal"?

[pam]

I'm still waiting for the reference I asked for.

[prisonchaplain]

It is an absolute law of mathematics that the top 50% of American earners will own more than 50% of the wealth, and the bottom 50% will own less. A land in which that was not so would be mediocre indeed.

[Moksha]

Do you really think I would not sympathize with poor people?

No, I would assume that as an active disciple of Christ, you would champion the cause of helping the poor, just as Jesus has directed you.

Since you are ideologically opposed to Moksha obviously your charity is suspect.

One can be in favor of both groups, but one must be aware that sometimes what is best for the rich (being able to horde their riches without restraint) can be very bad for the poor. The question should be asked of the religious as "whose cause do they champion"?

The poor do need someone who should be concerned for them, and if the only ones to step forward are the secularists and the religiously liberal, then that does indeed have significance that a key message in the good news may have been misplaced.

[prisonchaplain]

Moksha, you appear to be dancing around the idea that to take up the cause of the poor is to sometimes...maybe often oppose the rich. Sometimes that is true. Historically, it has often been true. However, those situations have more to do with corruption and the very discussion we are having about when government must intervene. You say we should all be asked whose cause we champion. However, the question seems to imply we must choose, and further, that we are not currently appearing to choose the side of the poor, the widowed, etc. Such questions can be necessary and prophetic, or they can be manipulative. In political discussions that share partisan viewpoints injecting such inquiries will give the appearance of the latter.

[HoosierGuy]

It is an absolute law of mathematics that the top 50% of American earners will own more than 50% of the wealth, and the bottom 50% will own less. A land in which that was not so would be mediocre indeed.

I wonder if France is like that. I wonder if Sweden is like that. They may or may not be, but they are making it all work for the people.

[Just_A_Guy]

I would venture to guess that even in France, the rule that richer people tend to have more money is as applicable as it is here.

[prisonchaplain]

Since Hoosier brought up France and Sweden, I googled the following: http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf The author is from Stolkhom, so the bias is not American. He suggests that the European Union is trailing the U.S., that equalization policies are frought with difficulties, and then the American combination of high wages and low taxes fuels consumption, which helps economies.