New TLC program: "Sister Wives"

[Moksha]

Anybody catch the premier of this series on the Kody Brown family last night?

If so, what are your impressions?

[Roseslipper]

I wouldnt waste my time watching it....

[Melissa569]

I was curious what this show was, so I checked out the preview on YouTube, here:

Hmmmm.... Well, if you live in a country where half of the men have been killed off, and your choices are either get married or starve--- then I suppose I can see why someone would agree to be one of multiple wives. Of course, that still doesn't mean its right, or ideal... Its just survival.

And to be honest, even in that case, I'm sorry but I would rather become a nun and live in a convent (almost every culture has something similar to that, religiously) than participate in a multiple marriage.

But as for the USA... If there are plenty of men to go around, and such a lifestyle is not the norm of your culture, then there is no need to live such a lifestyle. I firmly believe that if you allow yourself to be sucked into it when there is no survival need to do so, it is because you have somehow been convinced that YOU don't deserve a faithful husband, but your husband deserves faithful wives.

I mean really, if he truly believes that multiple marriages are ok, then how come his wives can't have multiple husbands? I'll tell you why-- Its because he thinks he is more worthy of being content than women are.

And any man who believes that, is not decent. Nor is he worthy of a good woman's love.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Melissa569

[Wingnut]

I was curious what this show was, so I checked out the preview on YouTube, here:

Hmmmm.... Well, if you live in a country where half of the men have been killed off, and your choices are either get married or starve--- then I suppose I can see why someone would agree to be one of multiple wives. Of course, that still doesn't mean its right, or ideal... Its just survival.

And to be honest, even in that case, I'm sorry but I would rather become a nun and live in a convent (almost every culture has something similar to that, religiously) than participate in a multiple marriage.

But as for the USA... If there are plenty of men to go around, and such a lifestyle is not the norm of your culture, then there is no need to live such a lifestyle. I firmly believe that if you allow yourself to be sucked into it when there is no survival need to do so, it is because you have somehow been convinced that YOU don't deserve a faithful husband, but your husband deserves faithful wives.

I mean really, if he truly believes that multiple marriages are ok, then how come his wives can't have multiple husbands? I'll tell you why-- Its because he thinks he is more worthy of being content than women are.

And any man who believes that, is not decent. Nor is he worthy of a good woman's love.

Clearly you have no concept of historical context.

(1) Which culture? American culture? What is that? Is there only one? Or is it thousands and thousands of subcultures that have become enmeshed? If that is the case (which I believe it is), then it is entirely plausible that polygamy fits perfectly into this family's culture.

(2) Historically, those men who participated in polygamy in the LDS Church were often the most faithful, spiritually speaking. I realize that I'm using the word differently than you did, but I'm making a point. It's interesting how yesterday you started a thread about being (or not) selfish in marriage, yet right here you talk about how a woman doesn't deserve a man who believes that he has been directed by God or His prophet (not President Monson, but someone the person in question here perhaps recognizes as a prophet) to have a polygamous family.

(3) Again, historically, when it comes to polygamy (and I continue to use the LDS Church as reference and context, because that it what I'm familiar with, and because I believe that the family in this show is part of an LDS offshoot), women have never been permitted more than one husband. It's always been multiple wives. Are you saying God has had it wrong all this time?

(4) Any woman who doesn't understand that it's not all about her or all about the sex, doesn't deserve to be with a man who does understand that.

[mnn727]

Any functioning male can get a woman pregnant, but it takes a special type of man to 'raise up rightous seed' or in other words to be a rightous father; those kind of men can be hard to find.

Would you rather be 2nd wife to a rightous man? or only wife to an abusive man or an alcoholic man or even just a man that didn't believe in God?(assuming religion is important to you)

[Saguaro]

(3) Again, historically, when it comes to polygamy (and I continue to use the LDS Church as reference and context, because that it what I'm familiar with, and because I believe that the family in this show is part of an LDS offshoot), women have never been permitted more than one husband. It's always been multiple wives. Are you saying God has had it wrong all this time?

Not entirely accurate. Of the 30 or so women that Joseph Smith married in his life time, 11 were already married, therefore women were at one time permitted more than one husband.

I watched just a few minutes of the beginning of the show, it looked kind of interesting and would probably have watched more but my wife can't stand to watch that kind of thing. I thought it was interesting that they called themselves fundamentalist Mormons yet they looked like regular people, no long dresses and long braided hair like you see the Utah/Arizona/Texas fundamentalists wear.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Saguaro

[Wingnut]

Not entirely accurate. Of the 30 or so women that Joseph Smith married in his life time, 11 were already married, therefore women were at one time permitted more than one husband.

Were they actually married to Joseph Smith (as in, shared a household and a bed), or just sealed to him, as was the fashion?

[NeuroTypical]

I mean really, if he truly believes that multiple marriages are ok, then how come his wives can't have multiple husbands? I'll tell you why-- Its because he thinks he is more worthy of being content than women are.

I must wonder about the story behind such a comment. Marriage leads to contentment, therefore having more spouses means more contentment?

Not in my reality...

[Saguaro]

Were they actually married to Joseph Smith (as in, shared a household and a bed), or just sealed to him, as was the fashion?

In this context I think marriage and sealing can be used interchangeably. I you want to say they were "just sealed" then doesn't that imply they were married? When I went to the temple I wasn't "just sealed" to my wife, we were also married in the same ceremony. Joseph Smith may not have cohabitated with his wives (though there are those who argue he did) but the fact is he was married/sealed to women who were already married to their husbands.

[MarginOfError]

In this context I think marriage and sealing can be used interchangeably. I you want to say they were "just sealed" then doesn't that imply they were married? When I went to the temple I wasn't "just sealed" to my wife, we were also married in the same ceremony. Joseph Smith may not have cohabitated with his wives (though there are those who argue he did) but the fact is he was married/sealed to women who were already married to their husbands.

From some of the things I've read, it isn't clear that it was always understood that sealing and marriage could be used interchangeably, and it is quite possibly that the 1830's - 1840's of 'sealing' was radically different from what we understand it to be now.

[Saguaro]

From some of the things I've read, it isn't clear that it was always understood that sealing and marriage could be used interchangeably, and it is quite possibly that the 1830's - 1840's of 'sealing' was radically different from what we understand it to be now.

Let's go back to Wingnut's original statement, "women have never been permitted more than one husband". Let's assume for the sake of argument that they were sealed, and not necessarily married. If a woman is sealed to a man, does that not make him her husband? If not, then what is he? What other term would you use to describe him? I can't think of any other. The fact is there are women who were sealed to their husband and Joseph Smith at the same time. We could argue the semantics of "marriage" vs "sealing" all day.

Sorry for veering away from the original post, which if I remember correctly was about a TV show.

[MarginOfError]

Let's go back to Wingnut's original statement, "women have never been permitted more than one husband". Let's assume for the sake of argument that they were sealed, and not necessarily married. If a woman is sealed to a man, does that not make him her husband? If not, then what is he? What other term would you use to describe him? I can't think of any other. The fact is there are women who were sealed to their husband and Joseph Smith at the same time. We could argue the semantics of "marriage" vs "sealing" all day.

Sorry for veering away from the original post, which if I remember correctly was about a TV show.

My wife is sealed to two men. She is sealed to me, and she is sealed to her father. Does she have two husbands?

Seal and marry are not necessarily the same thing, and we can't evaluate the actions of those sealings to Joseph Smith with an 21st Century functional definition of sealing. It may not be as cut-and-dry as you think.

[JThimm88]

In regards to the OPs question, I watched it last night and found it interesting. While polygamy is seen as wrong within the Church, and I'm not sure that I could ever, ever practice it personally (if our Church still practiced it or ever did again for one reason or another), I still commend this guy and his wives for being patient enough to practice something that they believe to be true, despite how hard it probably is at times, which I'm sure we'll see throughout the show. It's also somewhat inspiring how they do maintain a certain harmony at home that even some people in a monogamous marriage can't master throughout an entire lifetime. They seem like they've got a system that works for them.

I'm also amazed at how this man is capable of loving all three women with his whole heart -- I do believe you can be in love with more than one person (though in my opinion, that doesn't necessarily mean you should be -- I'm perfectly content in being in love with one person only!), and don't think this guy just married these women just because he could. I do think he has to love them all each in different ways as they're 3 different women. As well, I also think it takes a lot for these women to be willing to open up their hearts to each other and their marriages to each other as well and maintain a different kind of relationship that we may never understand. They probably have to work harder at keeping jealousy out of reach, work harder at being positive and strong role models for their children (even if that does include polygamy, which we generally don't see as being a strong trait, but they clearly do), and work harder at maintaining love for their husband, as well as loving friendships for each other...

We simply don't have to deal with sharing our spouses as members of this Church, so sometimes I think we've rather got it a little bit easier. Despite polygamy being normal for them, it's still got to be hard. In our Church, we're not still being told that polygamy is righteous and that we should participate in polygamous marriages if we can... we're being told to be with one person and one person forever, and sometimes we can't even get it right with just that one person... yet polygamous marriages sometimes get it more right than we do with multiple people.

I don't know, I just think this show will give me a different perspective on different kinds of marriages. It'd be like watching a show on an arranged marriage... that too would give me a different perspective on something that I don't practice. I think in some way, shape, or form I'll personally be able to pull something valuable out of this show... (ex: maintaining a more harmonious marriage with my husband; I also think in watching the ups and downs of a polygamous marriage, I, and perhaps other people, will be able to truly appreciate just how great our monogamous marriages are...)

Edited September 27, 2010 by JThimm88

[Saguaro]

My wife is sealed to two men. She is sealed to me, and she is sealed to her father. Does she have two husbands?

That's a ridiculous argument, comparing a sealing between a parent and child is not the same as that between two adults within a marriage relationship.

[Just_A_Guy]

I watched just a few minutes of the beginning of the show, it looked kind of interesting and would probably have watched more but my wife can't stand to watch that kind of thing. I thought it was interesting that they called themselves fundamentalist Mormons yet they looked like regular people, no long dresses and long braided hair like you see the Utah/Arizona/Texas fundamentalists wear.

The trouble is that "fundamentalist" can be a generic term for any LDS offshoot group that practices polygamy, but it is also the name of a specific fundamentalist group--the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headed (as far as we know, though recent legal wranglings make this uncertain) by Warren Jeffs.

I get the feeling that these folks are "little-f" fundamentalists, but not members of Jeffs' sect and therefore not subject to the proscriptions on hairstyles and dress that Jeffs teaches.

That's a ridiculous argument, comparing a sealing between a parent and child is not the same as that between two adults within a marriage relationship.

But MOE's point, I think, is that we don't always know for certain what kind of "sealing" these relationships between Joseph and married women were supposed to be. (Though I think Zina Jacobs-Smith-Young, for one, was always clear that she was Joseph's "wife".)

Edited September 27, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[MarginOfError]

Let's go back to Wingnut's original statement, "women have never been permitted more than one husband". Let's assume for the sake of argument that they were sealed, and not necessarily married. If a woman is sealed to a man, does that not make him her husband? If not, then what is he? What other term would you use to describe him? I can't think of any other. The fact is there are women who were sealed to their husband and Joseph Smith at the same time. We could argue the semantics of "marriage" vs "sealing" all day.

Sorry for veering away from the original post, which if I remember correctly was about a TV show.

That's a ridiculous argument, comparing a sealing between a parent and child is not the same as that between two adults within a marriage relationship.

Actually, it was a very appropriate response. As in, we already know that a woman can be sealed to a man that is not her husband. When this happens, we usually call the man her father. It's a simple counter example to the claim you make that if a man and woman are sealed, then he must be her husband. Now that we already have one exception, it is possible that there are more?

Quite simply, I don't know. I don't know what the words of the ordinance were that sealed those women to Smith. I don't fully understand what Smith's understanding of sealing was at the time that he did it. What I do know is that the Church's understanding of sealing has changed over the past 180 years, and so I'm not prepared to make sweeping statements about the interchangeability of seal and marry.

[Just_A_Guy]

As an example of what MOE states: I seem to remember that D. Michael Quinn was also thrown off by the ambiguous use of the term "sealing" and used it to argue that male-to-male sealings in early LDS history were not actually "adoptions", but "marriages" under the auspices of D&C 132.

[Of course, Quinn himself would have strong incentive for promoting this revisionist view of things.]

[Suzie]

I was curious what this show was, so I checked out the preview on YouTube, here:

Hmmmm.... Well, if you live in a country where half of the men have been killed off, and your choices are either get married or starve--- then I suppose I can see why someone would agree to be one of multiple wives. Of course, that still doesn't mean its right, or ideal... Its just survival.

And to be honest, even in that case, I'm sorry but I would rather become a nun and live in a convent (almost every culture has something similar to that, religiously) than participate in a multiple marriage.

But as for the USA... If there are plenty of men to go around, and such a lifestyle is not the norm of your culture, then there is no need to live such a lifestyle. I firmly believe that if you allow yourself to be sucked into it when there is no survival need to do so, it is because you have somehow been convinced that YOU don't deserve a faithful husband, but your husband deserves faithful wives.

I mean really, if he truly believes that multiple marriages are ok, then how come his wives can't have multiple husbands? I'll tell you why-- Its because he thinks he is more worthy of being content than women are.

And any man who believes that, is not decent. Nor is he worthy of a good woman's love.

Good thing you wasn't born at the time of JS and Plural Marriage.

[Moksha]

Any functioning male can get a woman pregnant, but it takes a special type of man to 'raise up rightous seed' or in other words to be a rightous father; those kind of men can be hard to find.

I suppose when you do find them, they are out plowing the field.

I see a distinct possiblity that such positive portrayals in the media such as this Sister Wives program on The Learning Channel, may lead to a greater acceptance of both polygamy and Mormonism.

[RachelleDrew]

I'd much rather be the 3rd or 4th wife of a man who supported his family financially, was tender and gracious towards his wives, and attentive to his children than the 1st wife of a man who was negligent, hateful and unstable emotionally. Polygamy doesn't look too bad from my end of the rabbit hole.

But in all seriousness, polygamy doesn't bother me so long as it's not a situation in which someone is being forced or coerced into marriage, and if there is no fraud within the home (welfare, insurance, etc). I used to be very highly against it, but as time goes on I can see the positives that it does provide for the families who chose to live that way.

[bytebear]

Going back to the issue of marriage vs. sealing. Today we are sealed for time AND eternity. For Smith, he married some women for eternity but not for time, as they were married to someone else for time. So you can technically be married for time OR eternity if the situation warrants it.

[Moksha]

The day after this program aired, the sheriff of Lehi has announced that he is going after Kody Brown. I suppose if one practices it quietly in the community for 16 years and then appears on television, it was bound to happen. This is an election year, but I am not at all certain that such a prosecution in Utah County will deliver the votes.

Anyway, prosecution will help highlight this Utah dilemma and boost next weeks ratings. It might be time to take such a case up the court food chain now that the equal protection clause of the Constitution has inadvertently been rediscovered.

[jayanna]

Wait, you mean that they are actually legally married? Well, performing wedding ceremonies with marriage licenses, etc?

I'm confused, I thought they were just standing in a church building of theirs and exchanging vows, etc. not actually claiming to be legally married.? Do the women have the same last name?

[MarginOfError]

Going back to the issue of marriage vs. sealing. Today we are sealed for time AND eternity. For Smith, he married some women for eternity but not for time, as they were married to someone else for time. So you can technically be married for time OR eternity if the situation warrants it.

Do you have a source for this? That'd be an awesome source to have available.

[Bini]

Would someone please answer this question..

What was the primary purpose for polygamy? To have more children under one righteous household? Or was it for widowed women that had children they could not support alone and thus become a multiple wife? I understand the Lord felt it necessary but why? I know this forum has had a lot of debates on this but I can't recall what the primary purpose for polygamy was.

My personal feeling has also changed on this subject matter. If my husband was required by the Lord to take up multiple wives, it'd be devastating to me, however, it would be less painful if he was just a provider and no sexual relations were attached to the other wives. I don't care if he provides shelter, food, clothing and kindness but intimacy is a super tough one for me.