1 Timothy 4

[livyb]

I was not sure where this should go so I put it here

And before hand : I am not looking for a debate or anything of the like. I am looking for an answer and that is all.

So 1 Timothy 4 "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I am just wondering what you guys think of this verse as it relates to the Word of Wisdom and guidlines on drinking tea and coffee.

Thank you!

[Mahonri]

Tea and coffee are not "foods" . They are harmful drinks. Soft drinks are just as harmful. 1 can of ANY kind of soda has enough acid from the carbonation alone to mess with the natural pH of your system. We are made of water and water has a natural pH right around 7. In order to BALANCE your system once you have had one can of soda pop, you would have to drink 10 GALLONS of WATER. Soda with caffeine is doubly harmful. As Pres. Howard W. Hunter once said in Los Angeles while serving as President of the Church... "I guess some saints like their coffee cold". Every single prophet from Heber J. Grant all the way through Gordon B. Hinckley spoke about the harmfulness of soda with caffeine.

While Tea and Coffee are most often classified as harmful "hot drinks", in reality it's the caffeine that makes them harmful.

And don't get into the chocolate argument, it's bull. I've taken enough chemistry over the years to know. It doesn't actually contain caffeine, but related compounds that some will refer to as caffeine and sometimes have similar effects.

enough...

[Blackmarch]

I was not sure where this should go so I put it here

And before hand : I am not looking for a debate or anything of the like. I am looking for an answer and that is all.

So 1 Timothy 4 "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I am just wondering what you guys think of this verse as it relates to the Word of Wisdom and guidlines on drinking tea and coffee.

Thank you!

I don't think this has anything relating to drinking coffee or tea.

I'm generally against the thought of using drugs for recreational means or to use them as crutch unless it's absolutely necessary.

[Traveler]

I was not sure where this should go so I put it here

And before hand : I am not looking for a debate or anything of the like. I am looking for an answer and that is all.

So 1 Timothy 4 "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I am just wondering what you guys think of this verse as it relates to the Word of Wisdom and guidlines on drinking tea and coffee.

Thank you!

The word of wisdom is intended to provide covenantal guidelines to assist us in avoiding conspiring individuals (corporate greed) that would addict us for their profit and gain.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

Incorrect, Mahonri. Chocolate does, indeed, contain caffeine:

Source:

Does Chocolate Contain Caffeine? - Chocolate

and:

Amano Artisan Chocolate -- How Much Caffeine is in Chocolate?

and:

Food-Info.net : Does cocoa contain caffeine?

Also, you're looking beyond the mark. The prophet has never said it was caffeine that was the issue, so when you say that it's caffeine you are adding to the word. Dangerous ground, my friend. Especially when you make claims that are unsubstantiated and easily disproven.

As to the OP: Great question! Is that referring to the Word of Wisdom, which clearly is a commandment?

The biblical quote is correct. So is the word of wisdom. There is no such thing as unholy food or unholy drink. Everything is made pure through prayer and faith.

With that in mind, I'd want to ask a few questions:

1) Hemlock is a poisonous plant that was used to kill Socrates. Would prayer make that safe to eat, or would it simply sanctify it so that you died from ingesting something holy?

2) Is the word of wisdom a saving ordinance, or an ordinance that helps your health?

Still, you raise good points. What do you think is the answer?

Tea and coffee are not "foods" . They are harmful drinks. Soft drinks are just as harmful. 1 can of ANY kind of soda has enough acid from the carbonation alone to mess with the natural pH of your system. We are made of water and water has a natural pH right around 7. In order to BALANCE your system once you have had one can of soda pop, you would have to drink 10 GALLONS of WATER. Soda with caffeine is doubly harmful. As Pres. Howard W. Hunter once said in Los Angeles while serving as President of the Church... "I guess some saints like their coffee cold". Every single prophet from Heber J. Grant all the way through Gordon B. Hinckley spoke about the harmfulness of soda with caffeine.

While Tea and Coffee are most often classified as harmful "hot drinks", in reality it's the caffeine that makes them harmful.

And don't get into the chocolate argument, it's bull. I've taken enough chemistry over the years to know. It doesn't actually contain caffeine, but related compounds that some will refer to as caffeine and sometimes have similar effects.

enough...

[bytor2112]

I think it is the fact that people become addicted to coffee and tea and alcohol or rely on these substances to make it through the day....rather than relying on Heavenly Father.

[beefche]

Tea and coffee are not "foods" . They are harmful drinks. Soft drinks are just as harmful. 1 can of ANY kind of soda has enough acid from the carbonation alone to mess with the natural pH of your system. We are made of water and water has a natural pH right around 7. In order to BALANCE your system once you have had one can of soda pop, you would have to drink 10 GALLONS of WATER. Soda with caffeine is doubly harmful. As Pres. Howard W. Hunter once said in Los Angeles while serving as President of the Church... "I guess some saints like their coffee cold". Every single prophet from Heber J. Grant all the way through Gordon B. Hinckley spoke about the harmfulness of soda with caffeine.

While Tea and Coffee are most often classified as harmful "hot drinks", in reality it's the caffeine that makes them harmful.

And don't get into the chocolate argument, it's bull. I've taken enough chemistry over the years to know. It doesn't actually contain caffeine, but related compounds that some will refer to as caffeine and sometimes have similar effects.

enough...

Wait, are you saying that we can drink coffee or tea that is decaffeinated?

And I would like to see the reference on needing to drink 10 gallons of water for every can of soda to obtain balance.

[Carl62]

Wait, are you saying that we can drink coffee or tea that is decaffeinated?

Believe it or not, about six years ago my mother still got her temple recommend after telling the bishop that she drinks decaffeinated coffee (she still drinks it to this day).

[ADoyle90815]

Wait, are you saying that we can drink coffee or tea that is decaffeinated?

And I would like to see the reference on needing to drink 10 gallons of water for every can of soda to obtain balance.

Exactly, as there is such a thing as drinking too much water, and it's deadly.

[pam]

Wait, are you saying that we can drink coffee or tea that is decaffeinated?

And I would like to see the reference on needing to drink 10 gallons of water for every can of soda to obtain balance.

As I pointed out on another thread. Decaffeinated coffee is not without caffeine. Just means they removed most of it. It would have to be uncaffeinated coffee to be without caffeine.

[Wingnut]

As I pointed out on another thread. Decaffeinated coffee is not without caffeine. Just means they removed most of it. It would have to be uncaffeinated coffee to be without caffeine.

And even then, it's still coffee.

[jennvan]

Decaffeinating coffee doesn't de-nastify it. :) Most things that have caffeine in them taste horrible and you have to use LOTS of sugar and milk and such to offset the taste. Same thing happens with beer/alcohol. Its nasty until you "get used to it". Why would I want to "get used to it"? So gross. :)

Why are we thinking we know more or that science knows more than our prophets? The prophets have said specifically no coffee or tea and have said that other products with caffeine in them should be included in the word of wisdom.

[jennvan]

And I'm curious how this became the topic of the thread because I totally didn't get that at all from the intro scripture. I had much different thoughts about what the meaning of the scripture might be.

[beefche]

Why are we thinking we know more or that science knows more than our prophets? The prophets have said specifically no coffee or tea and have said that other products with caffeine in them should be included in the word of wisdom.

jenn, can you provide something from the church which says that anything with caffeine is included in the WoW?

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, if you mean "the prophets" with a lower-case "P": Sure; we can start with Elder McConkie.

But if you mean "The Prophet" with a capital "P", I'll agree with you--unless you count President Hinckley's remarks to Larry King, which in context I think were somewhat ambiguous.

[jennvan]

“With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.”

This came from a Liahona article in 1990. Here is the link.

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Caffeine—The Subtle Addiction

I have also heard it in passing spoken by other general authorities.

Here is another interesting more recent article regarding "energy drinks" most of which contain large amounts of caffeine.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Energy Drink Epidemic

[beefche]

Ok, those articles and quotes are advising against caffeine--not including them in the WoW. There's a difference there.

[jennvan]

Ok, those articles and quotes are advising against caffeine--not including them in the WoW. There's a difference there.

I'm curious how that is different.

[Dravin]

The prophets have said specifically no coffee or tea and have said that other products with caffeine in them should be included in the word of wisdom.

You know anyone with the strength to refrain from chocolate (it contains caffeine though not exactly egregious amounts) has a Kudos from me... shoot those contain chocolate don't they? Well, here is a peanut butter cookie instead:

Actually I can just imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if chocolate was declared against the Word of Wisdom.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Dravin

[Mahonri]

Well, if you mean "the prophets" with a lower-case "P": Sure; we can start with Elder McConkie.

But if you mean "The Prophet" with a capital "P", I'll agree with you--unless you count President Hinckley's remarks to Larry King, which in context I think were somewhat ambiguous.

Someone is on very shaky ground now.

If they are an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, they are sustained as PROPHETS, SEERS and REVELATORS. (with upper case for emphasis)

[MarginOfError]

Someone is on very shaky ground now.

If they are an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, they are sustained as PROPHETS, SEERS and REVELATORS. (with upper case for emphasis)

How is it that this is any shakier ground than taking random personal statements from these same men and broadcasting them as church policy when there has been no unified and formal announcement made about this issue from the First Presidency or the Quorum of the Twelve?

By the way, I've personally heard Elder Bednar say he doesn't care if one drinks caffeinated beverages or not.

[hordak]

I mentioned this in another thread.

Caffeine is like tattoos

Some leaders have counseled against it, both the spiritual and physical dangers, in talks and in magazines. But it doesn't keep one from getting/ making "official" blessings or covenants.E.G. Temple, Baptism, Priesthood etc.

And unfortunately some members who eschew it, because of their understanding, condemn those who do not.

So my advice. If the Holy Ghost has confirmed to you that you should not consume caffeine then you should heed this advice.

However Personal Revelation is just that, personal. You wouldn't call all your married friends, and tell them to have babies, because the Holy Ghost has confirmed the truthfulness of this council and you feel the need to have one.

[jayanna]

I was not sure where this should go so I put it here

foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I am just wondering what you guys think of this verse as it relates to the Word of Wisdom and guidlines on drinking tea and coffee.

Thank you!

Hi Livyb :)

Here is my answer for your question...the answer is in the scripture. There is a condition to the food...it is here

foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving

the foods that God did not create to be received are warned agains in the Word of Wisdom.

Thanks for your question, have a great day.

[Just_A_Guy]

Someone is on very shaky ground now.

If they are an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, they are sustained as PROPHETS, SEERS and REVELATORS.

Yes, that was my point.

(with upper case for emphasis)

Maybe--I'd have to dig out my LDS Style Guide. But the fact remains that, when we talk about "the Prophet", 99% of the time we're referring to Thomas S. Monson and not one of the other fourteen members of the 1st Presidency/Quorum of the 12.

[FunkyTown]

We all love you, JAG, and most of us got what you were saying.

PS: I had venison burgers this last weekend! EXCITING! Next weekend: Wild Boar sausages. YUM!

Yes, that was my point.

Maybe--I'd have to dig out my LDS Style Guide. But the fact remains that, when we talk about "the Prophet", 99% of the time we're referring to Thomas S. Monson and not one of the other fourteen members of the 1st Presidency/Quorum of the 12.