Double Standards Alert!!!

[bert10]

H prison chaplain. I see things differently...humiliation is bad for the Ego and what is bad for the Ego is good for the soul. It is they who are abased that shall be raised up on the last day. And they who are raised up shall be ask to take a lower seat.

Problems come into our lives that is for sure. All problems whether they are there because of sins or not...(most are) we need to realize that GOD is permitting it. God has control over every details of our lives. And always act for our good even if it leads to our death here on the earth.

The thing is...we can use our problems to praise and thank GOD for them instead of murmuring and being resentful like Israel of old were when They were given problems...some of them were terrifying...life and death problems. Instead of turning towards GOD and gaining the faith necessary that awaited them for meeting their GOD they lost those moments by complaining, murmuring and threatening the life of Moses.

The person who has all sorts of problem is blessed. For GOD cares enough to chastise them who love Him. This person can use each and every problem as a reason to praise and thank GOD. This will cause the person to have his mind centered on GOD and be in prayer all the day. Praising and thanking is a prayer most pleasing unto GOD.

Men often forget GOD when things are running smoothly in their lives. Their prayers are shorter and they forget to praise and thank God as they become distracted by the things of this world. The problems are there to remind us that we need GOD and hopefully men will realize that they need GOD even when things seems to be running smoothly in their lives. If we fail then God shall class us with being ungrateful.

bert10

Every day I am thankful for my circumstances. Sometimes I wish we had more, so we could do more. You remind us of the tough situations that many in our families and our churches and wards are in. I know an architect who is doing low-wage security right now (housing bust busted his field). My brother had to take a job in a new field at a one-third paycut. Fortunately, he likes the new job, and may make those wages up in longevity.

I suppose bishops have to be tough-minded, and feel obligated to straighten people out who come for help. LDS culture seems very steeped in "rugged individualism." It's mostly good, but can be humiliating when help actually is needed.

My heart goes out to you, and I pray sincerely that you get the support you need, so that down the road, you can give the support others need.

[JudoMinja]

Another thought that came to mind about the Lord not asking us to run faster than we are able- sometimes we are able to do far more than we realize. The Lord knows our limits better than we do, and when those limits are strained He uplifts us. With God, ALL things are possible. We can do ANYTHING when we turn to the Lord to support us.

[prisonchaplain]

Hi prison chaplain. I see things differently...humiliation is bad for the Ego and what is bad for the Ego is good for the soul. It is they who are abased that shall be raised up on the last day. And they who are raised up shall be ask to take a lower seat.

Problems come into our lives that is for sure. All problems whether they are there because of sins or not...(most are) we need to realize that GOD is permitting it. God has control over every details of our lives. And always act for our good even if it leads to our death here on the earth.

The thing is...we can use our problems to praise and thank GOD for them instead of murmuring and being resentful like Israel of old were when They were given problems...some of them were terrifying...life and death problems. Instead of turning towards GOD and gaining the faith necessary that awaited them for meeting their GOD they lost those moments by complaining, murmuring and threatening the life of Moses.

The person who has all sorts of problem is blessed. For GOD cares enough to chastise them who love Him. This person can use each and every problem as a reason to praise and thank GOD. This will cause the person to have his mind centered on GOD and be in prayer all the day. Praising and thanking is a prayer most pleasing unto GOD.

Men often forget GOD when things are running smoothly in their lives. Their prayers are shorter and they forget to praise and thank God as they become distracted by the things of this world. The problems are there to remind us that we need GOD and hopefully men will realize that they need GOD even when things seems to be running smoothly in their lives. If we fail then God shall class us with being ungrateful.

bert10

It's not that I disagree. However, there can be rejoicing in the midst of tears. I'm thankful for God, not the hardship. I may learn through the sorrows and difficulties, but my response is to the LORD, not the stuff.

Jesus declared, "Blessed are those who mourn." We do not have to pretend that we are happy, and all is well, when we are sad, and times are tough. Faith says God will bring me through, and the day of rest and plenty will come. I rejoice in my God and in his promises. The pain I endure, sometimes with weeping.

My sense is that with the OP, realities have been accepted, but there is disappointment at the response of spiritual leadership. Ultimately, the answer is to pray for our leaders, and bless them irregardless. Nevertheless, part of the lessons to be learned in this scenario may be as much by the bishop, as by his needy ward members.

[leming6]

I totally understand your situation. Although you may feel you are letting your family down by taking a second job and doing other things, think of it as at least you still have a home for your family. My husband works two full-time jobs, just finished his master's degree, and has a calling at church. I am working on my master's degree, hold a calling, and take care of our 5 kids. We don't have extras, we can't even get Christmas for our kids. Yes, it is rough to not have him home more often but I thank the Lord every day for his ability to work and pay the rent. Without him working so hard we would be homeless. We are at a point that we need to go to the bishop and I don't want to but I'm going to have to and I will do what he asks if it means my family has heat, is fed, and has a place to live. I also have a hard time when we need to go to the bishop and ask for help because sometimes he seems like he doesn't care or understand our situation. I don't know that anyone will ever truly understand anyone else's situations because everyone is different and their situations are different. The truth is, they do care, they do want to help, they just have to make sure you are doing everything you can. The Lord only helps those who help themselves. You have to put in the work too, in all areas of life, not just literally.

[Backroads]

I agree with the multi-aforementioned sentiment that this is truly a silly thing to leave the church over.

I am going to try to say this without coming off as patronizing: Much of the world lives quite happily on a lot less than Americans. I'm not saying you move to a tiny plot of land and give up modern conveniences, but much of your bishop's financial counseling was sound. You give stuff up. It's amazing what little you need to get by.

I also sort have a personal life-based view of people who demand too much of the church resources without be willing to give things up, and after what I've seen I have very little patience for it. My cousin almost left the church because the bishop refused to pay for her internet-which she was not using for any work/school but merely for entertainment. I had an old college roommate who did go into inactivity for a few years because, and I kid you not, she was a WoW addict who refused to get a job, attend classes, and expected the ward to support her. Not saying this is your level, but it's where I get my negative views.

Really, just cut what you can. Look into cheaper childcare services than daycare (I love the idea of asking neighbors or relatives). On that note, true charity blesses both the giver and receiver.

As for not having time with your family... what about members of the military who go to long trainings and through deployment? Quantity time is a lovely thing, but it's not always possible. You do have a responsibility to provide for your family. You're not by far the only father who has ever had to work a bunch of jobs and barely see his family. It does not mean you are a bad father! That's just the situation!

COuld your bishop have been more sensitive? Of course. But he is a human, and your situation is not the only thing with which he has to deal. He is hardly in charge of your connection to the church and leaving it for a little thing like this is, well, rather immature and really has no effect on the gospel. I really have to ask: what are you trying to prove?

Also, as many have suggested, don't rely only on the church. There is a reason all these government services exist! Make use of them!

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Everyone, thank you for your comments.

We have cut out everything that we could. Taking on a second job is not very conducive financially because we would be spinning our wheels. Why? We have a 13 month old that we would have to place into child care and that would cost us money, money we do not have and a second job would barely cover that expense. Therefore, with me being home during the day, we do not have that expense at all.

As for my back child support, it simply is due to the fact that I have not had stable work and therefore was not able to pay child support at times when unemployed. Because of this, I would not be able to pay any support until I found work. Then, it is taken out of my paycheck's and I don't even get income tax refund's because it goes straight to Child support (my wife files for an injured spouse at the end of the year for it). So, it was not that I refused to pay it, it was because I could not pay it when not working.

As far as cable - I am all for shutting it off and keep suggesting it to my wife. This will do two things, save us money there, and it will be a luxury my stepson does not need. We are battling with him to get his grades up and all he concerns himself with is television. I hardly watch television, and if I do, it is only an hour or two here.

The most we have had to go for is a food order from the Church, and that is not very much because we incorporate what we currently have in the two week menu.

[Backroads]

I had another thought not long ago, which I think is something valid to be considered. If too many jobs cut into your health, well, that's not helping the financial situation. So keep that in mind.

[bert10]

Careful on how you define the word "Mourn"...for we are to leap for joy when uncomfortable life experiences come to us...see Luke chapter 6.

Sadness, despair, crying ...are negatives and drive away the Holy Ghost from us.

Here is what Malachi said of these people...

Malachi 2:13 - And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

To them who were suffering Jesus would say..."be of good cheer"

Mouning as in "grave concern" Yearning for good to others in spite of their sins.

bert10

It's not that I disagree. However, there can be rejoicing in the midst of tears. I'm thankful for God, not the hardship. I may learn through the sorrows and difficulties, but my response is to the LORD, not the stuff.

Jesus declared, "Blessed are those who mourn." We do not have to pretend that we are happy, and all is well, when we are sad, and times are tough. Faith says God will bring me through, and the day of rest and plenty will come. I rejoice in my God and in his promises. The pain I endure, sometimes with weeping.

My sense is that with the OP, realities have been accepted, but there is disappointment at the response of spiritual leadership. Ultimately, the answer is to pray for our leaders, and bless them irregardless. Nevertheless, part of the lessons to be learned in this scenario may be as much by the bishop, as by his needy ward members.

Edited December 16, 2010 by bert10

[Whynot]

A high councilman has no keys nor right to revelation in a matter such as this.

Well, that may be per your organizational beliefs, but that hasn't been my experience. I think they are highly gifted and perceptive.

[Wingnut]

They may well be highly gifted and perceptive, but they still don't have the keys to counsel individual members, nor to receive revelation on their behalf.

[prisonchaplain]

Careful on how you define the word "Mourn"...for we are to leap for joy when uncomfortable life experiences come to us...see Luke chapter 6.

Sadness, despair, crying ...are negatives and drive away the Holy Ghost from us.

Here is what Malachi said of these people...

Malachi 2:13 - And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

To them who were suffering Jesus would say..."be of good cheer"

Mouning as in "grave concern" Yearning for good to others in spite of their sins.

bert10

I guess I had better rejoice, for I am indeed uncomfortable with this line of belief. To tell a child who's fallen that she's driving away the Holy Ghost with her tears? To tell a dad who's just been laid off that his tears are needless, that he should just cheer up would be irresponsible.

We ought not wallow in our anguish, but even Jesus wept at Lazarus' funeral--despite the fact that he likely knew he was about to resurrect him. He felt the sorrow of his loved ones, and empathized with them.

The platitudes and plastic smiles of saints and believers, who dare not confess their troubles to brothers and sisters, for fear of being accused of driving away the Holy Ghost, or of lacking faith--well, that breaks God's heart more than the tears themselves.

Again, I understand the admonition not to wallow in sorrow, to the point of incapacitation. We do need to "man up," and walk in faith. However, usually that comes following a time of mourning and being comforted. The Holy Spirit is, after all, the Comforter.

[skippy740]

Revelation & inspiration is different from training. It appears that most Bishops that I've dealt with have little to no financial training.

I've had financial issues and asked the church for assistance. Bishops seem to live in a "theoretical" financial world.

For example:

- Cutting internet services. Household cost: ~$50.

- Instead, add travel, babysitting and additional inconveniences by going to the library. Costs: $200/month for the babysitting & gas.

By my own math, you are moving BACKWARDS financially, and becoming more reliant on your car and babysitting to move forward.

This is not a "double-standard". This is a lack of financial knowledge and how some "conveniences" are a better budget option compared to other alternatives.

[HoosierGuy]

Cut the cable. Nothing on cable but trash 99% of the time. Keep the internet. That's how you study and better your life. You can concentrate more at home on the computer than at the library. I would ditch the cell phone. They just rip people off.

Do the smart thing and don't argue with the Bishop. Take what food you can get. But, you live in Washington, a good state. Surely there are other big churches in your area with food banks. Take a phone bill or something else with your address and visit the food banks.

[talisyn]

Being counciled to not let anything interfere with the Family and then being counciled to take up a second job and sacrifice time with my family as well as my health and well-being. Being asked to do something that is outside of our budget and yet being told that we need to redo our budget so that we are not in the red, but the black.

Having someone speak down to me in a very condescending tone and then tell me that they are concerned for me and that they understand when they have not made any verbal or non-verbal communication toward showing any form of understanding.

My parents had a bishop once who thought my dad and dad's cousin were having an affair. The bishop didn't know they were cousins, but eeewww. Point is, don't let this guy keep you and your family from becoming an eternal family. Congrats on the new job, and try some gov't assistance programs if you aren't already. They are filled with snooty people but those people won't make you feel like leaving the church lol. WIC in particular is awesome.

At least now you know the kind of person your bishop is

[ADoyle90815]

I think your wife should look into WIC, as she recently gave birth, and you have a baby. One thing about that other job that I could guess a bishop would have issues with is if you started working on Sundays, and you quit going to church because it was a scheduling conflict. I think you could ditch the cable as it's mostly trash anyway, and keep the internet as it's what you use for school and job searching.

[MarginOfError]

Well, that may be per your organizational beliefs, but that hasn't been my experience. I think they are highly gifted and perceptive.

They may well be highly gifted and perceptive, but they still don't have the keys to counsel individual members, nor to receive revelation on their behalf.

Nor are they authorized to counsel individual members. High councilmen are authorized to be liaisons between the stake and ward leadership, and their responsibilities end there. If a member wants a second opinion, he or she should seek out the counsel of a member of the stake presidency.

[Whynot]

My main source of advice for life comes from the Lord and His word. We all need encouragement from time to time, and one has to have the heart to be perceptive. We who believe in the name of the Lord have been given authority to become sons of God. As such, I don't want to exclude others within that context.

[Wingnut]

My main source of advice for life comes from the Lord and His word. We all need encouragement from time to time, and one has to have the heart to be perceptive. We who believe in the name of the Lord have been given authority to become sons of God. As such, I don't want to exclude others within that context.

Again, that has nothing to do with keys. Being a son of God doesn't automatically give one the keys or the right to receive revelation for others.

BTW, we're all sons and daughters of God.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Wingnut
typo

[Elphaba]

My main source of advice for life comes from the Lord and His word. We all need encouragement from time to time, and one has to have the heart to be perceptive. We who believe in the name of the Lord have been given authority to become sons of God. As such, I don't want to exclude others within that context.

If I understand her correctly, Wingnut is talking about stewardship, and the fact that God would not inspire anyone who doesn't have it as to how to counsel someone.

I actually had an experience with this in the '70s. I grew up in California, and at the age of 17, ended up living on my own in Boston. I LOVED it. Two years later I went to BYU (many people here will be SHOCKED at that!) and HATED it! (They won't be shocked at that! lol)

I made plans to return to Boston, but my mother was dead-set against it. She had me go to the local patriarch, who literally told me God had inspired him to tell me to give up any thought going to law school (that was my dream at the time), stay in Utah, and get married.

I moved back to Boston. When I told my branch president what had happened, he was livid. I was not a member of the patriarch's stake, and thus, he had no stewardship over me. As such, God would never have inspired him to counsel me at all, much less to say what he did. The patriarch either believed he had received inspiration he had not and should have known he could not, or he had lied to me. Either way, he was completely out of line.

If that's not what Wing is talking about, she can clarify.

Elphaba

[HEthePrimate]

Hi SeattleTruthSeeker,

I feel for you, brother! It sounds to me like you're doing everything you can to do what's right, and you're in an impossible situation. I'm not clear on why the Bp would not allow you and your wife to attend the temple until you get caught up on child support. If it were a situation where a person refused to pay child support, I'd understand that position, but you are honestly trying, and the only reason you fell behind is for lack of a job, if I understand correctly. Sounds to me like your bishop is punishing you for something that isn't really your fault, or that he doesn't understand what's going on.

Your bishop sounds a bit hard-nosed to me. They're not all like that, thankfully. I'd suggest you do what you have to to get through this rough period, and get off Church assistance ASAP, if only for your own sanity! Keep talking to the bishop. If some of his suggestions don't make sense from a financial point of view, patiently explain to him how it could be done better--maybe he'll see sense.

Sounds like you and your wife have a supportive relationship. That's wonderful! When my wife was alive, she was what kept me going and gave me hope. Make sure to include your wife in the process of working with the ward leaders. You know, "in the mouth of two witnesses," and all that!

Peace, and good luck to you.

HEP

[prisonchaplain]

BTW, since you're in Seattle (don't know which neighborhood), you might consider the counsel given here to look at other sources of help, as well. Federal Way has the Multiservice Center, which is literally a one-stop center for those in need. Food Bank, Clothing Bank, housing assistance, drug counseling, even pre-packed bags of groceries that do not require cooking (for the homeless). This organization is non-sectarian, and pretty cool (yeah...I took the tour). I'm guessing there are similar organizations throughout the Puget Sound. Sometimes, being a wise steward means finding the help when the obvious sources are not enough. My prayers go out for your and your loved ones.

[ttribe]

Tim - Contact me...you have my information.

[skippy740]

Being current on child support is part of temple worthiness - and also a part of honoring your responsibilities as a father. It IS one of the questions.

If you're doing everything possible to pay it - even with wage garnishments and tithes, then (I would think) that would be satisfactory.

BTW, if you are encouraged by church leaders/members to seek government assistance over help from the church, I'm sure you can find plenty of Ezra T. Benson quotes that you are trying to live by!

[Just_A_Guy]

I was mildly surprised to read an article in the Ensign a couple of years ago talking about what to do if you're laid off. One of the top-five items on the list was, apply for government assistance ASAP. Will try to look up the reference later, if I have a few spare minutes.

[Guest mirancs8]

For many the thought of having to ask for assistance is not only difficult but humiliating. A friend of mine and her husband have a 1/2 doz little ones and barely make it. He works hard, she stays at home. They don't have fancy cell phones or plans, nor do they have cable, and everything they have is hand me downs. They have asks for assistance a number of times and I know it was very hard for them. Especially her husband because he felt he wasn't pulling his load. They hit hard times... it is what it is. With that said they were expected to cut there expenses.

It's like that show Downsized where they can't even make the rent each month but the wife gets her Starbucks every morning AND she drives a Mercedes. Something just isn't right about that picture. For them they think they are at the lowest low when in fact they haven't even hit that yet. Once she has to give up those luxuries then she's see how low she can go.

There's a difference in am I seeking assistance to make it to my next meal OR am I seeking assistance because I am living with much less now and this is as low as I'm willing to go. Many of us survive to live comfortably but when you are really struggling that is when you don't know where the next meal is coming. Or when you move your very large and young family into a tiny house like my friends.

I struggle but my struggle isn't OMG my frig is empty and my kids haven't eaten the entire day. No, my struggle is to maintain this downsized life I am living. I am no where near as low as it could be and I sure hope I never experience that. I have drastically cut back to fit all my expenses within what I make with room to save a little bit. It's hard has heck but I have no choice. I'm a single mother who get's change as child support raising boys who have appetites like lions. Just the grocery bill is unbelievable!

I know a few guys who are in that same boat with the child support. They have to catch it up before they can be worthy again to attend the Temple. I don't have a problem with that and neither do they. That has to do with supporting your children which we are expected to do.

Don't leave the church because of your experience with the Bishop. Every Bishop is different and you can't let him get under your skin. Take it for what it's worth. Some of it is great advice. In the end it's up to you and your wife to pray about what steps need to be taken to get back on track. Ultimately the cards are in your hands... the question is what's your strategy to play to win.