War In Heaven Question...

[slamjet]

So we talked about the War in Heaven in priesthood today and I came out of it with one question that's neither here nor there, but nevertheless seemed interesting to me:

Moses 4:1-3

1. And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Is this saying that Satan didn't have an issue with the Plan of Salvation per-se, just how it was going to be implemented? The real question in the War in Heaven was the matter of Agency and who would end up being God and not so much the plan itself? Or am I sounding confused?

[pam]

That has been my understanding. That he didn't have a problem with it, only that he wanted people to be forced to do good and he wanted all the glory for himself.

[LDSChristian]

So we talked about the War in Heaven in priesthood today and I came out of it with one question that's neither here nor there, but nevertheless seemed interesting to me:

Moses 4:1-3

1. And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Is this saying that Satan didn't have an issue with the Plan of Salvation per-se, just how it was going to be implemented? The real question in the War in Heaven was the matter of Agency and who would end up being God and not so much the plan itself? Or am I sounding confused?

Free agency is a key part of the Plan of Salvation so Satan did have some problem with it.

[pam]

Not with the plan itself, only with how it would be implemented.

[LDSChristian]

Not with the plan itself, only with how it would be implemented.

Another term for the Plan of Salvation is of course the Plan of Happiness. Nobody can experience happiness when there's no free agency. In order for something to exist there must be an opposite thing to exist as we learn in the scriptures. With happiness, sadness and things of that nature. If there's no happiness there's no Plan of Happiness/Plan of Salvation. Since Satan had a problem with free agency he had a problem with the Plan of Salvation itself.

Edited March 7, 2011 by LDSChristian

[slamjet]

I get the why's of the Plan of Salvation. My question is what was the war all about in the first place? It seemed to me to be a question about Agency and God, not the plan itself. Just seeing if I'm on the right track here.

[LDSChristian]

I get the why's of the Plan of Salvation. My question is what was the war all about in the first place? It seemed to me to be a question about Agency and God, not the plan itself. Just seeing if I'm on the right track here.

Going by scripture it seems like it was over who would be the Savior.

[slamjet]

Going by scripture it seems like it was over who would be the Savior.

My dear child, I'm asking about things a bit deeper than that.

For someone who doesn't listen to divorcees, you sure have no problem dishing it out. So let the big boy's handle this one.

[bytebear]

Another issue was who was to receive glory for the act of being Savior to the world. Satan wanted it for himself. Jesus did not. It is a bit like how we say that the priesthood cannot be used for selfish means. Although we do give glory to Christ, he does not require or request it.

[LDSChristian]

My dear child, I'm asking about things a bit deeper than that.

For someone who doesn't listen to divorcees, you sure have no problem dishing it out. So let the big boy's handle this one.

Dish what out? You asked if Satan had an issue with the Plan of Salvation and I answered it with a post in regards to it and free agency.

What I said:

"Free agency is a key part of the Plan of Salvation so Satan did have some problem with it.

Another term for the Plan of Salvation is of course the Plan of Happiness. Nobody can experience happiness when there's no free agency. In order for something to exist there must be an opposite thing to exist as we learn in the scriptures. With happiness, sadness and things of that nature. If there's no happiness there's no Plan of Happiness/Plan of Salvation. Since Satan had a problem with free agency he had a problem with the Plan of Salvation itself."

Edited March 7, 2011 by LDSChristian

[Connie]

Is this saying that Satan didn't have an issue with the Plan of Salvation per-se, just how it was going to be implemented? The real question in the War in Heaven was the matter of Agency and who would end up being God and not so much the plan itself? Or am I sounding confused?

LDS.org - Lessons Chapter - Plan of Salvation

Per the above: "Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and “sought to destroy the agency of man”"

It was the goal that Lucifer didn't have a problem with. The goal being Salvation. He wanted to implement his own plan--his own means to that goal--rather than following the means that Heavenly Father had laid out.

Does that help?

[Still_Small_Voice]

I have heard it said that Lucifer wanted us to be unable to choose so we could not sin. This would be like putting us into a state of an unintelligent animal. You would come to earth exist then die not gaining anything from the experience. He would then get all the glory for this plan taking the glory from our Heavenly Father. This sounds to me like a very large departure from the Plan of Salvation to me.

[slamjet]

LDS.org - Lessons Chapter - Plan of Salvation

Per the above: "Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and “sought to destroy the agency of man”"

It was the goal that Lucifer didn't have a problem with. The goal being Salvation. He wanted to implement his own plan--his own means to that goal--rather than following the means that Heavenly Father had laid out.

Does that help?

That clicks... So agency being an intricate part of the plan and his opposition to it meant that he opposed the method. And if the method was not the same, then the end was different since Lucifer's plan negated the need for different Kingdoms. Thus Lucifer's plan, by design, was not the same as Father in Heaven's plan.

So in the end, it really was a war of opposing plans, not differences in administration of the plan.

Now it's becoming clear. Thanks.

[Connie]

You're welcome. Glad i could help. :)

[beefche]

I think it came down to power and glory. God's plan would be implemented in the manner He wanted/decided and glory would go to Him. Satan wanted to insure that all would receive salvation/exultation and wanted the glory for himself.

[Wingnut]

I think it came down to power and glory. God's plan would be implemented in the manner He wanted/decided and glory would go to Him. Satan wanted to insure that all would receive salvation/exultation and wanted the glory for himself.

This is how I've always taken it, too. Satan didn't necessarily have a different plan, or even disagree with God's plan. His problem was that he sought to supplant God.

[Just_A_Guy]

Note, too, that if there's no agency there's no sin, and therefore no need for an Atonement. Satan gets all the perks of a God, with none of the responsibilities--no unpleasant little encounter in Gethsemane for him!

And his plan ensures that he's the only child of Elohim who ever attains Godhood.

In short: Satan's plan was exactly what Moses says it is: Give (don't make me earn) ME (and no one else) thine honor.

Cleon Skousen takes a rather intriguing, though controversial, view. He argues that the elements choose to obey God because of His perfect justice; by trying to convince Elohim to save people who hadn't really merited it (or were vouched for by One who undeniably had merited it), Lucifer is (per Skousen) trying to lull Elohim into a situation where the very elements rebel against Him.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[slamjet]

That's what I always thought but as I followed the logic (I'm a computer guy,it's how I think) I can think of a few issues:

Free agency would be suspended to ensure full compliance and guarantee eternal life. With this, there would be no need for:

• - A Savior since no one would sin
• - Degrees of glory since all would receive Exaltation

To the architect of the plan goes all the glory, so we would not be worshiping Heavenly Father but:

• - We would be worshiping Lucifer, Son of the Morning.
• - We would be exalted to live with Lucifer since he would have all the Glory.

So this would be a radical enough change in Heavenly Fathers plan that it can very well be seen as an opposing plan in full.

Edited March 7, 2011 by slamjet

[beefche]

I guess I'm not understanding your question. To me, Satan didn't have "issues" with the plan. The Plan was to allow for the happiness and ability to receive and be all that Elohim has and is. Satan didn't seem to have issue with that.

Satan had issue with who would be the Savior and who would receive the glory. His amendments to the original Plan would have radically changed the plan. Notice how insidious his amendments were. He didn't come out and say, "Wait! Here is my idea! Here's a plan that I think is best!" He "agreed" to Elohim's plan. God asked who would be the Savior and Satan volunteered. As part of his volunteer pledge, he said that he would get glory (which is true--look at the glory we give to Jesus). So, he fully accepted the plan--at least in public. But, his agreement to the plan would have radically changed the plan and the history of us.

[slamjet]

I know I'm a bit mixed up on the question, but my mind got locked up and I posted the questions to get it loose and thinking again. And this:

Satan had issue with who would be the Savior and who would receive the glory. His amendments to the original Plan would have radically changed the plan. Notice how insidious his amendments were. He didn't come out and say, "Wait! Here is my idea! Here's a plan that I think is best!" He "agreed" to Elohim's plan. God asked who would be the Savior and Satan volunteered. As part of his volunteer pledge, he said that he would get glory (which is true--look at the glory we give to Jesus). So, he fully accepted the plan--at least in public. But, his agreement to the plan would have radically changed the plan and the history of us.

Throws a different element to analyze. I'm just trying to flesh out in my mind what the nature of the War in Heaven was.

[beefche]

I'm not exactly sure how the war played out either. I know that the war continues today, here on Earth. Satan and those who followed him continue to fight against God and His plan. I'm sure it was similar to how it is being fought now. Except we had memories of shouting for joy at the Plan as well knowing Satan and those who followed him.

[slamjet]

I'm just editing a movie in my head. I kind-of feel something running in my head that's starting to come together to a clearer picture of what exactly the issues and arguments where in that battle of the war. I dunno, I'm just following where my thoughts and analysis are going. I think they might lead to a more personal understanding of what went on and I threw it out there to gather other peoples views and understanding to get a more complete set of data to work from. Thus far, it's been quite enlightening.

But then, it may not be anything at all.

[questioning_seeker]

I suspect that Satan's plan, if indeed he had his own plan, could not hvae been too fundamentally different from God's otherwise it would not have attracted the level of support that it did. I don't think that, having been raised for until millenia in the presence of our Father in Heaven, that as His spirit children, we would be willing to fight for something significantly different from what our Father was offering. My understanding is that the ultimate objective of God's plan, and Lucifers, was exhaltation. The differences were in how that exhaltation would be achieved, who would get the credit, and how many would reach exhaltation.

I think that the "war" in heaven was more a difference of opinion between two sides, somewhat like a debate, rather than the kind of wars we have down here on earth. Or, more likely, it was like the kind of argument that goes on between a late adolescent and their parents when both sides finally realise that they have such findamentally different values that they can no longer live together.

Looking back, I can't understand why I chose God's plan. If Heaven is as good as its promised to be, it seems to me that I would be willing to give up everything - happiness, the ability to make my own choices, opportunities for learning and growth - for the short space of this life time in order to qualify for an eternity in the celestial kingdom. God's plan is learn first, and if you learn the lessons well enough, you get to go to the celestial kingdom, but many of you won't make it. Lucifer's plan is get to the celestial kingdom, you will all make it, and then we could learn whatever lessons we needed to about choice and growth and happiness. Eternity is long enough to learn all those things that we are supposed to learn here.

I think there might also be an element of selfishness in choosing God's plan over Lucifers. Lucifer's plan guarenteed a lesser reward, more widely available, whereas God's plan promised a greater reward, more likely to be achieved by the few rather than the many. When we made our choice, I suspect we were influenced more by what is best for me rather than what is best for the many.

[applepansy]

I get the why's of the Plan of Salvation. My question is what was the war all about in the first place? It seemed to me to be a question about Agency and God, not the plan itself. Just seeing if I'm on the right track here.

Yes, this has always been my understanding. Satan didn't want us to have our Agency and he wanted the glory. He was selfish!

[HEthePrimate]

Is this saying that Satan didn't have an issue with the Plan of Salvation per-se, just how it was going to be implemented? The real question in the War in Heaven was the matter of Agency and who would end up being God and not so much the plan itself? Or am I sounding confused?

Well, IMO, free agency is an absolutely essential ingredient of the Plan of Salvation. Therefore, if Satan had a problem with agency, he had a problem with the Plan. God could make us do what's right/prevent us from doing wrong, but if he did that, he would be no better than Satan. Fortunately for us, God is good.