Does the Church want Women to be Stupid?

[Jenamarie]

There are far more working moms in my ward than SAHM's currently. And even most of the current SAHM's are in school for something, and so won't be at home much longer (or at least don't plan to be, of course it depends on whether they can find a job in this market after they graduate).

[Dravin]

I work, full time! I suport my family.

I know I said that.

What bothers me is that all women activities are in the day. (ok, most) becasue they assume all Mormon women can go. I never get to know anyone in the ward becasue I can't go to the activities. >.<

I ran into something similar with YSA activities when I was still going to a YSA activity, they were all planned for 8 or 9 pm (it seemed) and went on a couple hours. Some of us get up early for school or work. *shrug*

[JThimm88]

Lol, all I know is life is not perfect for THIS LDS woman. I have a terrible track record with education -- I've never known really what I've wanted to do. In the 2 and a half years I had under my belt before my husband and I got married, I studied early childhood education, lay ministry in the Lutheran church (before I converted), nursing, human resources, and computer networking. At 22, I should be graduating from college this year, but I'm a stay at home mom to a 2 month old. I LOVE that -- in fact, it's the only thing I'm sure that I want to do right now, but I know that if I don't eventually get a degree in SOMETHING, I'll regret it. The issue is figuring out what it should be in, something worthwhile that I'll enjoy, but what?

I'm one of those gals who realizes I'm young; my husband and I are really just starting our lives at 22 and 25, BUT I don't think we're invincible. I know that in a heartbeat he could be gone, and that I would be left to support myself and my little girl on my own. Education is very important! But instead of wasting money that we don't have, and time that I don't necessarily have being a full-time mom right now, on something I'm not sure of, seems pointless.

Ideally I'll go back to school once my babies are in school, so it might be a while as we're just starting our family, but ... it'll happen, and who knows, by then I'll know what I want to do aside from being a mom. :)

That's just my dilemma!

[dahlia]

Dahlia, what you speak of, what you are focused on in this post, is very much of this world. Temporal considerations. Don't forget that there is learning, development, and education from choosing the path of the "traditional" mother that cannot be earned in any other way. That has value too. Value that will last the eternities, and not a vocation that will become obsolete in the hereafter.

I have to pay the bills in this world. Sorry, I guess I will never be the perfect Mormon if I'm only supposed to think of the hereafter.

Folks, please note my original post - I didn't say that everyone had to go to college or that it was wrong to stay home with the kids. When my husband was alive, we often alternated work times so one of us would be home. For a time, my husband stayed home with our son. And I'm all for parents instilling values in their children. Just because both parents work doesn't mean that there is child-raising or that no values are being taught in the home.

I'm just miffed that these women go all over the country while the husband gets educated and they can't do much for themselves - from what I've seen, mostly because there are so many little kids that it would be impossible to pay for child care on a resident's or grad student stipend.

Sometimes I wish I was in a regular ward.

[livy111us]

It is a personal choice and no one should judge what other couples decide to do in their relationship. If the wife wants to stay home with the kids, great. If she wants to get a degree, great. That is between them alone and doesn't have anything to do with the Church.

[Elphaba]

Dahlia, what you speak of, what you are focused on in this post, is very much of this world. Temporal considerations. Don't forget that there is learning, development, and education from choosing the path of the "traditional" mother that cannot be earned in any other way. That has value too. Value that will last the eternities, and not a vocation that will become obsolete in the hereafter.

If that's the case then shouldn't fathers be staying home taking care of the children as well? After all, doesn't the Church teach that men will spend eternity taking care of the children they will have just like Heavenly Father takes care of His children today? Or are they going to spend eternity going to the office every day?

Elph

[JudoMinja]

It's just that I've yet to meet someone who's actually working. Life must be perfect for most LDS women.

/rant I'm in a bit of a snit about this. I don't mean to offend anyone.

I'm just miffed that these women go all over the country while the husband gets educated and they can't do much for themselves - from what I've seen, mostly because there are so many little kids that it would be impossible to pay for child care on a resident's or grad student stipend.

The grass is always greener on the other side. It is easy to look at someone who gets to stay at home and take care of their kids, supported by the single income brought in by her husband and think her life must be perfect. Honestly, I think what you are feeling may be a little bit of jealousy. I understand. I've felt the same way myself on occassion.

I think even the most career oriented women (for the most part) would love to be able to stay home and take care of her children. Not every family can do this, and it is not exactly necessary. It is an ideal, but there are plenty of people who make life work with different styles due to their own personal circumstances.

I know I often feel awkward in Relief Society when the topic of husbands comes up, and I tend to feel a little jealous when "in-home dilemmas" come up, because I have to put my son in daycare and don't get to spend as much time with him designing and planning the activities of his day. Sometimes, I start feeling jealous of my sister because her life seems so "perfect" from the outside. I think you have labeled the women living this "perfect" lifestyle "stupid" because you may be having similar feelings of jealousy. It sounds like you wish you could be a stay-at-home mom but cannot afford to do so.

When my own jealous feelings crop up, I go through a little mental exercise. I think of all the wonderful blessings I have in my life. I think of the fact that I may sometime in the future still have the opportunity to be a stay-at-home mom. I think of the many lessons I've learned from my experiences that I would not have if my life were as "perfect" as these other women. I think of how GREAT my life is, just the way it is. I think of the ways my current position in life, my knowledge and abilities, have been used to help others.

Remember also that you do not need to compare yourself to others. We all have unique circumstances and our own path to pursue in this life. YOUR family is your center, and as long as you are giving your family your best effort, caring and providing for and teaching them in the best way you know how, it doesn't matter how others are doing it.

[Wingnut]

Life must be perfect for most LDS women.

I mean this is in all sincerity: sad as it is, a lot of LDS women work hard to give off this image. Part of it is because we all see everyone else's family lives being so seemingly perfect, that we want ours to be also. Part of it goes back to cultural things I talked about before, and a lot of pressure we feel to have a happy and successful home life.

What bothers me is that all women activities are in the day. (ok, most) becasue they assume all Mormon women can go. I never get to know anyone in the ward becasue I can't go to the activities. >.<

The only daytime activities I've ever been aware of have been playgroups or other informal get-togethers that are mostly friend-organized as opposed to RS-organized. All our activities are in the evening. We have a cannery trip a couple times a year, but the last several of those have been on Saturday mornings.

If that's the case then shouldn't fathers be staying home taking care of the children as well? After all, doesn't the Church teach that men will spend eternity taking care of the children they will have just like Heavenly Father takes care of His children today? Or are they going to spend eternity going to the office every day?

Elph

I know you're being a little snarky here, but I'm going to answer the question anyway. I quoted the Family Proclamation before, and I'll quote the relevant part again: "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families."

It specifically refers to temporal -- not just spiritual -- needs.

[Guest mormonmusic]

It is a personal choice and no one should judge what other couples decide to do in their relationship. If the wife wants to stay home with the kids, great. If she wants to get a degree, great. That is between them alone and doesn't have anything to do with the Church.

I agree it's between the two people ultimately, but unfortunately, my observation is the Church DOES have a lot to do with it. Much of what people say and do is driven by norms that follow from conference talks, doctrine, or established culture. I find this is particularly true on matters that affect the growth and population of the Church. Getting married younger and having a large quiver of children is good for the long-term membership of the Church. (The commitment to plural marriage is an extreme example of this in our history). And the emphasis seems to be on men getting education so they can provide. I don't see the same emphasis as it relates to women -- that old expression that you go to school to get your MRS is a case in point.

Also, If you step out of the mainstream life plan of the Church, it can be hard on the member. I know this because after my mission my own life took a strange turn. Many other people experience the same thing....so, the norms and social influence of being in the Church, and its tendency to suggest certain roles in the family for men and women does drive a lot of people's behavior. We can say "it's between the couple", and that's largely true, but expect a pretty rough ride with thoughtless comments from people at Church, regardless of the divergent path you choose. That can influence people to be stay at home Moms.

Edited April 27, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest mormonmusic]

Also, it might seem that there are a lot of educated LDS women because everyone here seems to have described a whole whack of related women who are degreed.

One thing to remember, it seems that people with education tend to (emphasis on TEND TO) frequent discussion forums. I've been on three of them in the last few years and each time someone asked what level of education people have, most of them had some form of university education, and the majority had or were working on Master's Degrees. There are exceptions, and the question/observation is not meant to imply that people without education are not somehow worthy or otherwise, but I have noticed this trend toward a higher incidence of educated people on discussion forums. So, the apparent pervasiveness of educated women in your families may well be due to the nature of the people who frequent this kind of recreation, and not an indication of the Church as a whole. (By the way, the people who may not have formal education certainly seem fully capable of it, which also shows ability to go if they choose).

[Blackmarch]

Also, it might seem that there are a lot of educated LDS women because everyone here seems to have described a whole whack of related women who are degreed.

One thing to remember, it seems that people with education tend to (emphasis on TEND TO) frequent discussion forums. I've been on three of them in the last few years and each time someone asked what level of education people have, most of them had some form of university education, and the majority had or were working on Master's Degrees. There are exceptions, and the question/observation is not meant to imply that people without education are not somehow worthy or otherwise, but I have noticed this trend toward a higher incidence of educated people on discussion forums. So, the apparent pervasiveness of educated women in your families may well be due to the nature of the people who frequent this kind of recreation, and not an indication of the Church as a whole. (By the way, the people who may not have formal education certainly seem fully capable of it, which also shows ability to go if they choose).

actually i'd say that intellectuals tend to stay on a forum because they have learned how to abide etiquette protocols... and i'd be so bold to say are interested in gaining knowledge in some manner or another.

..

Personally i'd say there are more people who lack education, or forgot what they were taught or are good at hiding their education across the internet... that or they are far more capable and willing to create more material.

- from my experience from various forums, blogs, and things of similar nature.

In hindsight probably a good reason for moms to get an education, and more, to be a teaching force to their children.

[RipplecutBuddha]

My mother was married less than a year after graduating high school. She never gained a degree in college, however I cannot imagine anyone else I know who is better at learning.

My father was a private pilot for years. Mom decided to get her pilot's license just in case they were flying and she had to take the controls for some reason. She stopped short of taking her first solo flight, due to being pregnant with my older brother, but she learned what she needed to know.

Later on, My dad's business was struggling, so Mom took a few college courses in business advertisement, then worked to keep the business going strong through a tough time.

Then there's her scripture study. I recall her going through about two or three sets of scriptures simply due to the vast bookmarks, footnotes, highlighting, etc. that just wore them out, broke the spine, etc.

As for us kids, she may not have taught us much in substance, but she did teach us how to learn, and how important it is to learn throughout your life.

A college degree is certainly a mark of high intelligence, and good education. It is not, however, the only mark nor the only way to become an intelligent man or woman.

[beefche]

dahlia, please tell me you have realized that the "perfect Mormon" doesn't really exist. That person lives in the same world as the "perfect husband", "perfect wife", "perfect" whatever.

How one interprets the prophet's and Lord's teachings and applies those teachings to their family isn't going to match up with how someone else interprets/applies the same teaching.

[Maureen]

...Honestly, I think what you are feeling may be a little bit of jealousy....I think you have labeled the women living this "perfect" lifestyle "stupid" because you may be having similar feelings of jealousy. It sounds like you wish you could be a stay-at-home mom but cannot afford to do so....

From looking at dahlia's profile and her previous posts I'm pretty sure these statements do not fit her. She's been there, done that.

M.

[Backroads]

I think many wise things have been said here.

Like I said before, my dream is to be the stay-at-home-mom. However, I also want to be doing writing at the same time, if possible, as writing is my passion.

I do believe the Church--both statements and culture--have a lot to do with it. The Church does say women should be educated--and suggests so in case they need to support the family. I think women should be educated because I believe everyone should be educated. It's not all about making money, but about knowledge and intelligence.

But at the same time, I really have to frown upon those who are "But Church Culture says so!" and can't find ways to make their own lives.

dahlia, I would suggest that you are only seeing a small portion of the women out there. Perhaps these are the ones that make themselves known.

I do take offense that this is all about being a "perfect Mormon". I know you're ranting, but you keep bringing this up over and over.

[mnn727]

I'm aware of this. It's just that I've yet to meet someone who's actually working. Life must be perfect for most LDS women.

/rant I'm in a bit of a snit about this. I don't mean to offend anyone.

Just remember you see these women at their best and for only 3 hours a week in most cases.

My wife has worked all her adult life and there are many that do. Some don't - more power to them, I think its great to not have to work, but thats just not the case for most families and if it is, its usually just when the kids are young.

[AGStacker]

My mother is a midwife who quit her job when the first baby came along and never had a job until she turned 65 and went on a rebellious stage and donned a K-mart apron and walked the 2 miles to K-mart (she can't drive and my dad refused to drive her to work at K-mart) on her 65th birthday. And she can barely speak English! Anyway, she put in her K-mart job application - previous experience: Manager of Household Services - 41 years. Which is true - she had 2 maids, 1 laundry person, 1 driver, 1 gardener that she managed!

I've been a paid programmer since I was 12 years old.

Got my Bachelors at 20 years old, getting my master's diploma next week. Yeay me.

I don't have to work. My husband makes enough money to support our family. I work because I hate to cook and I hate to clean after 3 boys (you know, the bathroom would be much cleaner if they would just sit down to pee!!!), and I don't have the patience to teach... so I work instead of spending the time cleaning the house - I hire a cleaning person, I pay money for private school, and I buy pre-made dinners with my money. Then I'm not stressed out and my husband can take off work to go to all these scouting things and whatever else the boys need. And he also gets to just take off work to watch Monday Night Football or something. Being a programmer, I work from the home office.

So yeah, the Proclamation to the Family emphasizes women to stay home and take care of the children and household - but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't work.

So what is it you do as a mother? All the things you don't do sound like a mother should be doing. Sounds like you want to be a mother without the responsibilities. Sorry for being harsh but it just seems that way.

[Guest]

So what is it you do as a mother? All the things you don't do sound like a mother should be doing. Sounds like you want to be a mother without the responsibilities. Sorry for being harsh but it just seems that way.

I take care of my husband and children. There's a lot more to Motherhood than Cooking and Cleaning, Thank You Very Much!

Here's a glimpse of my last 3 days:

Saturday, I helped my son make his Science Fair Project at 7AM after breakfast. I took my other son to his soccer game and coached his team at 10AM. I prepared all the stuff for the family to have a beach picnic and was at the oceanside by 1PM. Watched the kids like a hawk so they don't get sucked out by the rip currents or get smacked in the head by a wayward surfboard. At the same time, made sure the dog didn't poop on the beach and that he doesn't die of dehydration. Got the picnic stuff situated, etc. etc. etc.... went home at 6PM and stopped by the store to get dinner... had dinner at the house, helped the one kid with his piano lessons. Helped the other kid organize his drum books. Consoled the husband again because Orlando Magic lost - so I spent an hour just talking about basketball (which, I had to research before hand so I can talk like I know what I was talking about)... got the family down to watch a DVR's episode of Top Shot - had another discussion about guns with the kids... That was about 9PM by that time... Prepared the kids' suits for the next day, got the kids set for bedtime - read 3 more chapters of Warriors for the kids and they went to bed. Time to get the husband all comfy and cuddly... talking about Testimony meeting the next day and all the intimacy stuff. At that time it was midnight. Husband goes to bed, I get my stuff for my calling ready (preparation for primary music leader) - had to make a battleship game with poster board and stuff. That lasted until 2AM. Then it was time to study for my finals exam... did that until 4AM.

Sunday.

Went to bed at 4AM, got up at 7AM to get the kids ready for church make them breakfast, walk the dog, feed the rats, fish, and turtle. Good thing it was fast Sunday, so I didn't have to make my husband breakfast. Passed by my son's non-Mormon friend to take him with us to church... Went to church...

Sunday stuff on Sunday - scriptures, home teaching, helped a kid with his I'm a Mormon poster for Faith in God, entertained my son's non-Mormon friend's Mom for a few... nap.

Monday.

Took one of my finals exam at 7AM Monday morning... husband took care of all the kids stuff (like lunch packs and taking kids to school) when I'm taking exams... went to work at 9. Pick up the kids by 2:30... Then it's the whole cycle again of ice-cream shop (Monday tradition!), homework, MMA, FHE, fighting the school board, etc. etc. etc.

But, that's all good... because, I got one thing I was really happy about these past 3 days - my kids spent an entire weekend DEVOID OF VIDEO GAMES! w00t!

Welcome to my world.

:D

Edited May 2, 2011 by anatess

[Gramajane]

I have not taken the time to read the other replies.

-- The Prophet wants females and males to get an education, and at the same time is good, but when babies come, it takes a back seat for the mother who is needed MORE by them "at this season".

Also, an education for the woman helps the children SO MUCH--

and the work done within the walls of the home is the MOST important in the world-- though we don't usually get paid for it!

There was the story of a high up female judge who wanted to make a difference and help kids, and after she had worked for several years she saw so MANY youth in trouble BECAUSE of the failure of the home front- that she literally QUIT saying she needed to be home to make the best difference in the lives of her own kids (she had two pre schoolers by that time as I remember)

Yes, you can do part time work while the kids are in school, if you are intelligent and energized enough to do both, or volunteer as the church encourages, but the husbands responsibility is mainly to provide and protect, and work WITH the wife.

the Family is the BASIC unit of all creation-- it is our family that is eternal-- the FATHER title of God, even given by Jesus Christ the MOST often as a title of respect, should tell us something.

I believe that it is protecting our Heavenly Female parent that is the reason God the Father has not given us more info on her, and also that they work together as one. :)

Not to worry-- I think women have the more blessed of duties/work!

[Backroads]

Also, an education for the woman helps the children SO MUCH--

Thanks for mentioning this. I may be misconstruing your meaning of it, but so much of this thread had been devoted to the "money making" or "business success possibilities" of educated women.

Education should be about much more than making money. It should be about opening and sharpening the mind. Being naive, ignorant, and silly is no boone to children.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon mormonmusic! :)

I agree it's between the two people ultimately, but unfortunately, my observation is the Church DOES have a lot to do with it. Much of what people say and do is driven by norms that follow from conference talks, doctrine, or established culture. I find this is particularly true on matters that affect the growth and population of the Church. Getting married younger and having a large quiver of children is good for the long-term membership of the Church. (The commitment to plural marriage is an extreme example of this in our history). And the emphasis seems to be on men getting education so they can provide. I don't see the same emphasis as it relates to women -- that old expression that you go to school to get your MRS is a case in point.

Calling central components of the Plan of Happiness, marriage and family, simply "norms" seems to somehow suggest that they are just social constructs with only relative importance rather than them being a necessary part of the ultimate purpose of our existence. Exaltation does not occur without marriage. Further, part of our priesthood oath and covenant is to help bring about God's work which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Thus we are obligated, by an oath, to rear children in the covenant if it is at all possible, to whatever extent that we can.

The Church doesn't emphasize these things because they help ensure the Church's membership. They emphasize it because it is eternal truth and because it is the direction God has given to us to live by. So, the emphasis just doesn't "seem" to be for father's to provide for their families, but it is in actuality an emphasis by virtue of it being a commandment. Obviously, as attested by reality and by prophetic direction, individual circumstances dictates to what extent we can fulfill this direction. The Family: A Proclamation to the World lays out the ideals and without equivocation lays out God's desires and plan for His children concerning this matter.

Also, If you step out of the mainstream life plan of the Church, it can be hard on the member. I know this because after my mission my own life took a strange turn. Many other people experience the same thing....so, the norms and social influence of being in the Church, and its tendency to suggest certain roles in the family for men and women does drive a lot of people's behavior. We can say "it's between the couple", and that's largely true, but expect a pretty rough ride with thoughtless comments from people at Church, regardless of the divergent path you choose. That can influence people to be stay at home Moms.

Personal experiences, when speaking about a group, are anecdotal. One can hardly use them to define the "mainstream life plan of the Church". The Church gives us general guidance and principles. It gives us doctrine. Our duties as members are to try to conform our lives as best as possible to the principles and commandments of God as they have been revealed through His Church. Because of so many variables in terms of culture, circumstance, trials, personalities, etc. one will be hard pressed to find a actual "mainstream life plan" in the membership of the Church.

Regards,

Finrock

[Guest]

A salute to all the mothers...

[bnaur]

My wife graduated BYU as a medical technologist and I am very proud of her accomplishments and I have moved for her sake. So it does happen. But I understand your frustration as sometimes men forget that we are one side of a coin, our wives are the other and it takes both sides to be complete. The best way to do that is communicate, share and respect our needs with each other.

[JudoMinja]

A salute to all the mothers...

.....

Those babies are freaky.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon dahlia! I hope you are doing well. :)

I have to pay the bills in this world. Sorry, I guess I will never be the perfect Mormon if I'm only supposed to think of the hereafter.

Folks, please note my original post - I didn't say that everyone had to go to college or that it was wrong to stay home with the kids. When my husband was alive, we often alternated work times so one of us would be home. For a time, my husband stayed home with our son. And I'm all for parents instilling values in their children. Just because both parents work doesn't mean that there is child-raising or that no values are being taught in the home.

I'm just miffed that these women go all over the country while the husband gets educated and they can't do much for themselves - from what I've seen, mostly because there are so many little kids that it would be impossible to pay for child care on a resident's or grad student stipend.

Sometimes I wish I was in a regular ward.

Here is how I view things. It is our duty to find out what God's plan for us is. He's given us scriptures. He's given us prophets and apostles. He's given us the gift of the Holy Ghost. All of these are ways in which we can discover God's commandments and His desires for His children. When we know what God's desires are, it is then our responsibility to conform our lives to His will. This means making whatever changes are necessary in our personal conduct, personal philosophies, and personal desires in order to conform. This is where our faith comes in to play because we must trust that God's direction is the best direction despite our personal reservations. It is helpful also to remember that Heavenly Father's Plan is also called the Plan of Happiness, because that is the ultimate end of God's desires for us. He wants us to be happy and He knows precisely how we can achieve it in this life and in the next life. So, our conforming to His will isn't so as to inflate the ego of some infinite being but it is so that we can experience the type of peace, joy, and happiness that God knows.

"Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Family Proclamation).

The direction God has given us concerning the family and the role of mothers and fathers, is plainly given in scripture.

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners" (Family Proclamation).

Of course, God recognizes our individual and family circumstances:

"Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation" (Family Proclamation).

Thus, each person, each family, when they understand the principles God has provided, and to the extent their circumstances allows it, determines to what extent they will conform their lives to God's way.

Regards,

Finrock