apexviper13 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I know this seems obvious, I just wanted to get some opinions. I was on a LDS chatroom today and surprisingly there were members of the church saying people are not equal. Beyond that, they stated the church has even taught not everyone is equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I know this seems obvious, I just wanted to get some opinions. I was on a LDS chatroom today and surprisingly there were members of the church saying people are not equal. Beyond that, they stated the church has even taught not everyone is equal.You mean, present LDS doctrine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'd like to see the source of this doctrine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexviper13 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'd like to see the source of this doctrine...Same here. And that's the thing, the people didn't say who taught this so-called "teaching". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Well I can only speculate (but I hate to do that) I would like to know if they're referring to present LDS doctrine or present LDS teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I know this seems obvious, I just wanted to get some opinions. I was on a LDS chatroom today and surprisingly there were members of the church saying people are not equal. Beyond that, they stated the church has even taught not everyone is equal.The Declaration of Independence famously declares, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." This idea is a necessary fiction in a democracy. We must assume all men are created equal so that the law can be administered even-handedly; otherwise, we succumb to an oligarchy as the only reasonable form of law.But it is clear that all men are not "equal" in terms of ability. To claim otherwise would be to deny obvious truth.All men are "equal before God" in the sense that God is no respecter of persons. In this sense, Latter-day Saints absolutely believe that all men (people) are equal. But in the sense of actual accomplishment or status before God, this is not and cannot be the case. In fact, the Pearl of Great Price teaches otherwise:And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abraham 3:19)This certainly seems to indicate a gradiation between intelligent beings, such that not all are equal. But of course, this is obvious, as we already discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 We'd have to know what they meant by "equal". People are of different use to God, people reach different levels of righteousness and attain different glories. There are differences in someone who attains exhaltation and inherits all Christ and the Father hath, versus someone who makes it to the telestial kingdom. Some people will be made judges in Israel, other's won't. Some will have greater stewardships, others will have lesser. All that is solidly doctrinal. I haven't heard anything about Him loving or valuing us differently though. No matter what year a prophet has talked about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexviper13 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 The Declaration of Independence famously declares, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." This idea is a necessary fiction in a democracy. We must assume all men are created equal so that the law can be administered even-handedly; otherwise, we succumb to an oligarchy as the only reasonable form of law.But it is clear that all men are not "equal" in terms of ability. To claim otherwise would be to deny obvious truth.All men are "equal before God" in the sense that God is no respecter of persons. In this sense, Latter-day Saints absolutely believe that all men (people) are equal. But in the sense of actual accomplishment or status before God, this is not and cannot be the case. In fact, the Pearl of Great Price teaches otherwise:And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abraham 3:19)This certainly seems to indicate a gradiation between intelligent beings, such that not all are equal. But of course, this is obvious, as we already discussed.Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with equality. Being smarter than someone doesn't mean you're better than them or that they're below you. The exception is Jesus Christ since he's the Savior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with equality.How do you figure? What do you suppose it means for two people to be "equal"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexviper13 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 One example someone gave was the fact that only guys can hold the Priesthood. However, I think this is an example of equality, not inequality. The men hold the Priesthood and the women bring life into the world with help from the men of course. Even with that being said, the women still receive blessings for simply supporting the Priesthood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthiechan Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 One example someone gave was the fact that only guys can hold the Priesthood. However, I think this is an example of equality, not inequality. The men hold the Priesthood and the women bring life into the world with help from the men of course. Even with that being said, the women still receive blessings for simply supporting the Priesthood.Not quite. Men have the Priesthood, women do not. Women have spiritual instincts, men do not. The two are complementary. Men are blessed by the innate spiritual gift women have. Woman are blessed by the Priesthood men have. Source: Crossing Thresholds and Becoming Equal Partners - Liahona Aug. 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Women have spiritual instincts, men do not.I think it's sad that anyone believes this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 One example someone gave was the fact that only guys can hold the Priesthood. However, I think this is an example of equality, not inequality. The men hold the Priesthood and the women bring life into the world with help from the men of course. Even with that being said, the women still receive blessings for simply supporting the Priesthood.Again, what do you suppose to means for two people to be "equal"? When you say, "Billy is equal to Suzie", what do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Again, what do you suppose to means for two people to be "equal"? When you say, "Billy is equal to Suzie", what do you mean? When it comes to putting things on top shelves I am superior to someone who is 5' 4" because I'm taller, using the metric of height we are not equal in the exact same sense that 5 != 6. I think that people take it as a value judgement, that God loves me more or they less, thing is as you pointed out in that context we are equal in the sense that use having unequal height and ability at putting things on top shelves doesn't mean God loves me more or them less. I think the senses you point out, of God being no respecter of persons and being equal before the law and other similar concepts of equality (such as some sort of nebulous concept of true worth) have come to overtake a more literal sense in other contexts to the point of using it in one of those more literal senses can quite often get you facing a rebuttal grounded in the other. Edited June 17, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Well I can only speculate (but I hate to do that) I would like to know if they're referring to present LDS doctrine or present LDS teachings.Do you know anything of old vs new doctrine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanOf31 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 This stirred up an interesting thought/question for me. Dealing with the issue of females not having the priesthood, even though they still have it in their lives through blessings given to them and their husband to help, when we die and we become God's, to be come God you have to be powerful. God's power is the Priesthood, so since females can't hold it, would females not be considered Gods? Will females be as powerful as males? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 This stirred up an interesting thought/question for me. Dealing with the issue of females not having the priesthood, even though they still have it in their lives through blessings given to them and their husband to help, when we die and we become God's, to be come God you have to be powerful. God's power is the Priesthood, so since females can't hold it, would females not be considered Gods? Will females be as powerful as males?You are thinking of God as a superhero and Godhood (or Priesthood) as a magical spandex suit of power. In reality, these models do not apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 When it comes to putting things on top shelves I am superior to someone who is 5' 4" because I'm taller, using the metric of height we are not equal in the exact same sense that 5 != 6. I think that people take it as a value judgement, that God loves me more or they less, thing is as you pointed out in that context we are equal in the sense that use having unequal height and ability at putting things on top shelves doesn't mean God loves me more or them less. I think the senses you point out, of God being no respecter of persons and being equal before the law and other similar concepts of equality (such as some sort of nebulous concept of true worth) have come to overtake a more literal sense in other contexts to the point of using it in one of those more literal senses can quite often get you facing a rebuttal grounded in the other.I agree with your analysis. I want to know what the other posters think that "equality" means, because without knowing that, it becomes impossible to converse intelligently with them on the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 When we all lived in what is sometimes called the pre-existence; it is my understanding that the children were not equal. Therefore they were divided into 3 groups. One group of the 3 followed Satan, another group was called the “noble and great” and the rest were the rest. I see no reason to assume that we are “equal”. The Book of Abraham states that when there are 2 spirits one will be greater than the other and that Jesus is greater than them all. The problem is that in our fallen state we lack to ability to see enough to know who is greater and whois not. But we are given hints. For example Jesus tells us that the more we serve the greater we are in heaven. Most people think backwards and think that the lesser should serve the greater. One thing for sure - thinking you are greater is most likely an indication that you really are of less value. Pride, it seems, destroys the value of an individual.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanOf31 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 You are thinking of God as a superhero and Godhood (or Priesthood) as a magical spandex suit of power. In reality, these models do not apply.I am? No I know exactly what the priesthood can do including create worlds. If you want to call that magic, then you can but I never did as it's not. I love how you know everything and assume everyone else knows nothing. It shows ignorance in your character. You might want to lighten up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 This stirred up an interesting thought/question for me. Dealing with the issue of females not having the priesthood, even though they still have it in their lives through blessings given to them and their husband to help, when we die and we become God's, to be come God you have to be powerful. God's power is the Priesthood, so since females can't hold it, would females not be considered Gods? Will females be as powerful as males?No, the blessings of exaltation are not limited to a sex. Both men and women are conditionally sealed to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses.As temples were built and temple ordinances restored, our understanding of the male/female relationship has increased: Both men and women are conditionally sealed to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses. Both share the blessings of the priesthood. Both share the gifts of the spirit (i.e., to heal, to be healed, to speak in tongues, to prophesy, etc.).Linky: The Lord as a Role Model for Men and Women - Ensign Aug. 1980Also (relating a story about a couple in the context of those who don't go to the temple): They will not be gods and goddesses and priests and priestesses because they did not fulfill the commandments and do the things that were required at their hands.Linky: Young Women Manual 2 Lesson 15: Temple MarriageSo we find that in man's potential to be gods, priests and kings that women have the self same potential to become goddesses, priestesses and queens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I love how you know everything and assume everyone else knows nothing. It shows ignorance in your character. You might want to lighten up a bit.Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanOf31 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Thanks.Seriously. I thought coming to an LDS bulletin board would be more warm-spirited and nicer people than the average people on the web. I guess I was wrong lol. Lot of know it alls here and rude ones. Positiviy peeps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I haven't heard anything about Him loving or valuing us differently though. No matter what year a prophet has talked about it...Some verses in John that makes it sound like there is a level of conditional love:14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.I do not doubt that there is a universal love sent from the Father and the Son, but it sounds like there is a love reserved only for those who follow them (see also Elder Oaks' talk on Love and Law). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Divine Love - Ensign Feb. 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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