Would it do more damage to come clean?

[Suzie]

You should also prepare yourself for the possibility tht your wife may also leave you. After all, you've already left her.

And how exactly this man already left his wife?

[mrmarklin]

And how exactly this man already left his wife?

He is not worthy to bring his wife through the veil, when the time comes.

[Backroads]

He is not worthy to bring his wife through the veil, when the time comes.

No argument there, but you seem to be suggesting that makes him incapable of being a decent human being to his wife.

[Spartan117]

I believe you should tell your family and your Branch Pres the truth as soon as possible. You may be enjoying the culture, the community and the atmosphere now, but that smoke screen you're putting up won't last forever. Sooner or later (I would lean towards sooner) you are going to start to resent the church and it's "culture." Don't wait until you're bitter at the church or with the members. There are people in your life who need to know this, who deserve to know this and you owe it to everyone, especially yourself, to have a sit down with some of these people and figure this out ASAP.

If you don't think the church is true then I can't imagine where you think the real truth is. I spent 30 years in "the world" before converting a year and a half ago. I'm still new and everything is still shiny but I know that life without the light of the gospel isn't living at all. I sincerely hope you can make peace with whatever you're at odds with and be happy with whatever that is. But don't lie to your family.

[smileygr1]

I think it is your choice if you want to spend your life going to a church that you don't believe in. However, you should not be serving in callings in which you are expected to be an authority or spiritual leader to other people. You are not helping anyone when you bare your testimony, because the Holy Ghost can NOT testify to a lie. You are denying all of your students a spiritual experience. My advice would be to stop being so selfish and thinking only of yourself.

[AnnaG]

Okay, in my opinion, just going through the motions isn't going to gain you eternal life. Your wife deserves to know the truth. When she passes through the veil, she shouldn't have the shock of realizing her eternal family isn't eternal because you've chosen to turn your heart away from the Lord. Talk with her.

[jmpcs]

There's more to it than you're telling. A person's testimony doesn't just disappear. I would bet a lot of money that you have done something very wrong and your way of justifying it is to say the church is not true. It makes it less painful, plus then you're off the hook with the whole repentance thing. If I had to guess it would be infidelity. I've seen it before...everything you've said is classic.

[Gwen]

Struggling with your testimony does not mean you have committed some sin. Yes usually ppl that are unrepentantly sinning will lose their testimony but one does not require the other.

We are told we will be tested. Why do ppl want to assume it's the fault of the person when that test comes? I don't know the op's situation and maybe there is sin but I know I've struggled with my testimony before. Among the most hurtful reactions when I would confide in someone was being told I was apostate or accused of sinning. We need to be careful how we judge those around us.

[Mamas_Girl]

got married in the Temple etc. etc. However, I have (over a process of time) come to no longer believe in the Gospel. (Not the point of this post) The point is that, I have a wife and several children, and I don't know how to tell her, or even if I should.

I feel that you're going to have to tell your wife at some point, and your children too. What about that next temple trip? Your wife will want to know why you're not accompanying her. Also, your children... why are you not attending the temple with them both for baptisms, and their endowments before they're married or leave on a mission?

Eventually your family will need to know. My suggestion is to talk to your branch president who knows both you and your family. He's a man inspired by God, and receives inspiration for his flock. He knows your family and knows their heart. I believe he will be able to instruct you how to best handle the situation. But you WILL need to talk to your branch president about this.

[jmpcs]

Gwen...being tested and losing your testimony are two very different things. You're right, everyone is tested in this life, but not everyone walks away from something they once believed in when things get difficult. If a testimony is real in the first place it can only be lost by not nurturing it and the thing that keeps us from nurturing it is sin. We feel guilty so we don't pray, we feel unworthy so we stop going to church. Trust me...he has major sins he is covering by suddenly not believing in the church. It makes it easier. You don't have to worry about repenting. You can justify your actions by suddenly changing your values. I am certain that the times you have struggled as well were because you weren't doing what you knew you should be. You just don't want to admit that to yourself.

[mrmarklin]

jmpcs, You're probably correct in your surmise.

[Jenamarie]

Gwen...being tested and losing your testimony are two very different things. You're right, everyone is tested in this life, but not everyone walks away from something they once believed in when things get difficult. If a testimony is real in the first place it can only be lost by not nurturing it and the thing that keeps us from nurturing it is sin. We feel guilty so we don't pray, we feel unworthy so we stop going to church. Trust me...he has major sins he is covering by suddenly not believing in the church. It makes it easier. You don't have to worry about repenting. You can justify your actions by suddenly changing your values. I am certain that the times you have struggled as well were because you weren't doing what you knew you should be. You just don't want to admit that to yourself.

Not true. I had a very strong testimony that suddenly got *very* weak because I encountered something that caused me to doubt (and it *wasn't* a temptation to sin). This period of weak testimony came at a time in my life when I was regularly attending the Temple, reading my scriptures, and even teaching in Relief Society. I wasn't committing adultury, dealing with a porn addiction, or wanting to keep my 10% instead of paying tithing. I was living the gospel, and suddenly was wondering if it was the right gospel to be living.

MANY THINGS can cause a strong testimony to suddenly become weaker. It bugs me when people automatically assume that people with weak testimonies are just wanting to justify sin. I mean, we ALL have sins, right? Only Jesus Christ was ever perfect. So is everyone's testimony weak? Or can we have sin in our lives AND a strong testimony? Is it impossible to have a weak testimony while also not being guilty of any major sin? There are many good people in the world who do not believe in LDS theology. Is it only because they do not want to give up a sin? Surely there is far more to it than that.

Let's not be dismissive of someone's struggling testimony by accusing them of bringing it upon themselves. That is not how we lift them up. The Shepherd doesn't criticize His one wandering lamb. He picks them up, binds their wounds, and lovingly guides them back.

[Gwen]

Gwen...being tested and losing your testimony are two very different things. You're right, everyone is tested in this life, but not everyone walks away from something they once believed in when things get difficult. If a testimony is real in the first place it can only be lost by not nurturing it and the thing that keeps us from nurturing it is sin. We feel guilty so we don't pray, we feel unworthy so we stop going to church. Trust me...he has major sins he is covering by suddenly not believing in the church. It makes it easier. You don't have to worry about repenting. You can justify your actions by suddenly changing your values. I am certain that the times you have struggled as well were because you weren't doing what you knew you should be. You just don't want to admit that to yourself.

I guess you are just one of those ppl that find one "right answer" and decide it fits everyone and don't care what those who have been there have to say. It's always good to know what kind of person you are dealing with.

I'm going to say this as simply as I know how. I doubt you will hear it and probably try to argue with me and just say I'm in denial. But I don't say it for you. I will say it for all the ppl like me that may come along to know that they don't have to listen to ppl like you when it comes to their struggles. Yes some ppl sin and rationalize and it's easier to leave than to fix your life. But that's not everyone.

This life is a test, that is a promise. The ultimate test (which you may get in small doses) is how you do on your own. Everyone, even Christ had that test. Job and Abraham are also on that list. Those are the scriptures we turn to when talking about staying faithful in trial. We are told all will be tested even as Abraham. But what does that mean? At some point you will be tested, on your own, "for no reason". It will shake your testimony, that is the point of it, to find out what you will do when on your own. Will you hold to what you once knew until you know again or will you give up and turn away? There will come a time, as Job, as Abraham, as Christ when we won't be doing anything wrong and all hell will break lose. It won't matter how much you do right, how hard you pray, how tightly you hold onto the gospel. The crap will keep coming. You will have to deal with things not of your own making. In those times it's very very easy to think "It's not true" "God turned his back on me first" "What's the point" etc. That is the test.

Why would god test us this way (or think he wouldn't)? For me it's easiest to understand when I remember god is our father. We are a family, we are children, we are growing with the goal of becoming like our father (adults). As earthly parents we teach our children. In doing so sometimes we let "bad" things happen to them. When learning to walk, ride a bike, skate, etc. We hold our kids hands and guide them. We help them and keep them safe. But at some point they must be strong enough to do it themselves. So when we think they are ready we let go. They go a bit on their own, they wobble, and fall down. Some falls hurt more than others. We help them up, reassure them it's ok and we start again holding onto them. Again at some point we let go. They do better, wobble and fall. Some falls hurt more than others. We help them up and go again. And we do it again and again and again until they stay up. They are never really in any "danger" but tell that to the kid that falls off their bike for the first time. Growth hurts. We are trying to grow to become like our parents, we didn't come here to be a child forever, we didn't come here to have our hand held. We came to grow. We came to one day "go it alone" (be the parent). So God will hold our hands, he will lead us and carry us and teach us. And one day he will let go, just for a second. And we will fall. Some falls hurt more than others. Then we get up and we go again and again and again. Each time hopefully getting stronger than the last. Or we give up and never walk, never ride a bike, never skate, etc. We don't have to become as our father. But if that's what you want (exaltation) then you will have to stand on your own. There will be times when "for no reason" god is not there. Or so it seems. He's there but we are on our own, just like we do for our earthly kids.

Sometimes we have trials without sin. Sometimes we question. That's ok and it's ok to keep it on a need to know basis until you come the end of the trial.

[annewandering]

I guess you are just one of those ppl that find one "right answer" and decide it fits everyone and don't care what those who have been there have to say. It's always good to know what kind of person you are dealing with.

I'm going to say this as simply as I know how. I doubt you will hear it and probably try to argue with me and just say I'm in denial. But I don't say it for you. I will say it for all the ppl like me that may come along to know that they don't have to listen to ppl like you when it comes to their struggles. Yes some ppl sin and rationalize and it's easier to leave than to fix your life. But that's not everyone.

This life is a test, that is a promise. The ultimate test (which you may get in small doses) is how you do on your own. Everyone, even Christ had that test. Job and Abraham are also on that list. Those are the scriptures we turn to when talking about staying faithful in trial. We are told all will be tested even as Abraham. But what does that mean? At some point you will be tested, on your own, "for no reason". It will shake your testimony, that is the point of it, to find out what you will do when on your own. Will you hold to what you once knew until you know again or will you give up and turn away? There will come a time, as Job, as Abraham, as Christ when we won't be doing anything wrong and all hell will break lose. It won't matter how much you do right, how hard you pray, how tightly you hold onto the gospel. The crap will keep coming. You will have to deal with things not of your own making. In those times it's very very easy to think "It's not true" "God turned his back on me first" "What's the point" etc. That is the test.

Why would god test us this way (or think he wouldn't)? For me it's easiest to understand when I remember god is our father. We are a family, we are children, we are growing with the goal of becoming like our father (adults). As earthly parents we teach our children. In doing so sometimes we let "bad" things happen to them. When learning to walk, ride a bike, skate, etc. We hold our kids hands and guide them. We help them and keep them safe. But at some point they must be strong enough to do it themselves. So when we think they are ready we let go. They go a bit on their own, they wobble, and fall down. Some falls hurt more than others. We help them up, reassure them it's ok and we start again holding onto them. Again at some point we let go. They do better, wobble and fall. Some falls hurt more than others. We help them up and go again. And we do it again and again and again until they stay up. They are never really in any "danger" but tell that to the kid that falls off their bike for the first time. Growth hurts. We are trying to grow to become like our parents, we didn't come here to be a child forever, we didn't come here to have our hand held. We came to grow. We came to one day "go it alone" (be the parent). So God will hold our hands, he will lead us and carry us and teach us. And one day he will let go, just for a second. And we will fall. Some falls hurt more than others. Then we get up and we go again and again and again. Each time hopefully getting stronger than the last. Or we give up and never walk, never ride a bike, never skate, etc. We don't have to become as our father. But if that's what you want (exaltation) then you will have to stand on your own. There will be times when "for no reason" god is not there. Or so it seems. He's there but we are on our own, just like we do for our earthly kids.

Sometimes we have trials without sin. Sometimes we question. That's ok and it's ok to keep it on a need to know basis until you come the end of the trial.

wow I am impressed. Very well said. Much to think about and said is such an easy to understand way. :)

[Mamas_Girl]

I agree with jmpcs. The original author said he's "come to no longer believe in the Gospel (not the point of this post)." Yet, he wants to know whether or not he should tell his wife and children. No matter how you look at it, losing faith in the Gospel *is* the point of this post. From what I see, if you still believed in the gospel you wouldn't have a problem, right? So whatever it is that made you lose your testimony to the point that you feel you have a serious problem, *is* the root of the situation.

The required steps are to talk to your bishop or branch president and see what you need to do. Would you be happy if your name was removed from the church rolls, if not then you probably have more of a testimony than you can currently see. Your reluctance to give up your church callings leads me to believe that you are just in a spot where you're spiritually blinded, your bishop can help. If you still believe in God and desire to gain your testimony back continue praying and reading the scriptures. I've learned through personal experience that sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees, IOW there's something troubling you (maybe a sin, maybe not), but you just can't see it. I know, I was in spirtual darkness for 25 years (from when I got home from my mission to just a few months ago). Talking to my bishop opened my eyes and I was released from the mental torture I put myself in. My testimony is now stronger than it's ever been. I no longer know about God, I know God, and there is no greater feeling. Whatever happens, I hope you find the relief you seek.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Mamas_Girl

[sister_in_faith]

To the OP I'm sorry that you kind of got 'attacked' for your post (That's just how a lot of the posts came off to me).

Before you start letting the 'cat out of the bag', just remember that this cat is going to be very hard to get the cat back INTO the bag if starts going badly or you change your mind. Me, personally, I would have to be very Very VERY sure that I had no testimony left (just the fact that you are still active makes me think you have more of one than you may think) before I told anyone, other than my spouse... You know better than any of us how your wife would react to this. If she would go hysterical and start calling all her friends then hummmm. But if she would take it in stride and be thankful for your honesty, willing to help you thru it, then I would tell her.

The relationship I have with my boyfriend is one of 100% honesty. I mean ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. There is nothing that he does not know. He knows every bad thing I did in my childhood, every skeleton in my closet. He knows about the nightmare I had last night. He knows how I'm feeling today, even tho he is at work. I know that right now he is looking for a felon who ran from a halfway house who also has an officer caution. We communicate very well, and I would have told him when I first started having doubts. I know that he loves me UNCONDITIONALLY. But this description has been about ME and MY relationship. I just wanted to illustrate that I would have been open with him about my concerns, but this is because I know I would be safe in doing that. I don't know your wife, so I can't really say what the best thing to do is.

Just be careful who you do tell, because I have found that members of this church seem happy to jump on any perceived weakness in testimony, "Oh, SHE'S not worthy to go to the temple!". It's unfortunate, but that has been my experience. Having watched a friend go thru that (the person who actually escorted her thru the temple her first time came to me and told me all about how she wasn't ready and cried before going into the temple, HUGE breech of confidence in my opinion), I learned to KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT whenever I had a doubt. And all those doubts disappeared in time, and now I have a firm testimony. And looking back on that, I am glad.

Those times of doubt actually STRENGTHENED my testimony, whereas if I had been publicly ridiculed or rejected by other members I would have probably left the church entirely.

The callings on the other hand DO seem to be an issue. If YOU don't feel you are worthy to enter the temple, don't. If you aren't worthy, then don't participate in things that require a recommend. You can do that without letting that cat out. I don't think that you are lying to your children or anyone else by keeping testimony issues to yourself. I think you have a lot to lose if you 'go public'. If your wife would handle it well, I would talk to her about it.

I appologize if this post was all over the map, but it's not an easy situation to iron out! It really depends on your wife and what kind of woman she is.

By the way, I really find it surprising to hear that some people would consider a spouse falling away from the church a devorcable offense? Assuming that is the only issue, I can't imagine separating from my honey over something like that... How could anyone have an open honest relationship with their husband/wife, if they knew that losing a testimony could result in separation? That is NOT unconditional love - that is VERY conditional. Honey, I love you, but only as long as you pay your tithing. EEEK! But that's just me.

Edited October 20, 2011 by sister_in_faith

[Guest mormonmusic]

Okay since my original post was deleted. I'll keep this short. Basically are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men? Simple answer to that.

The answer itself will tell you what you need to do.

Way too simplistic.

If I was in the OP's shoes, I'd do a cost-benefit --what are the costs of coming out of the closet? To my relationships? To my family at large? What are the benefits.

If the costs outweigh the benefits, then I would try to find a way to be happy within Mormonism while not believing everything literally. I know people who have done this via:

a) Putting greater stock in their own "clock" rather than taking everything literally. This means recognizing that we do have our own license to run time honored cultural and sometimes, even quasi-doctrinal beliefs through our own prayer and communion with God and arrive at our own conclusion.

b) Setting boundaries on their Church experience. People did that to me ALL THE TIME when I was a priesthood leader. It was frustrating at the time, but now I understand why some may have done that.

c) Building valid breaks into their Church service, like planned weekends away where they miss Sunday and get a breather. I have done this and it has helped now and then.

d) Focusing on the good life principles that the Church teaches and de-emphasizing the things you don't believe anymore. There is still a lot of really good stuff about life that JS and the GA's and the scriptures teach that can be latched upon and applied to one's life, whether you believe in the literal "one true Church" concept.

e) Consider viewing your Church experience the same way you view a foreign country. Respect the beliefs of the people there, but recognize they are no longer your own, but you respect them out of gentlemanly-ness etcetera.

I have had some pretty nasty trials in the Church, and at different times, I have applied all of these to gain back my commitment and even my testimony -- although the latter is not the point of my suggestions here for you. It's to help you be happy within Mormonism in spite of the fact you no longer believe everything anymore.

[jmpcs]

My "right answer" doesn't come from myself. I rarely trust myself to have the right answer, but I always trust God and the prophets. This is from Elder Scott: 1. One of the principal purposes of this life is for God to test his children, to see whether we will keep his commandments. (See Abr. 3:25.)

2. Therefore, this life is “a probationary time,” as Alma called it, “a time to repent and serve God” (Alma 42:4).

3. The breaking of a commandment of God is sin.

4. In the final judgment, we will stand before God to be judged according to our works. (See Alma 11:41; 3 Ne. 26:4; D&C 19:3.)

5. For every sin there is “a punishment affixed.” (Alma 42:18; see also Amos 3:1–2.)

6. Those who have broken the commandments of God and have not repented in this life will “stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God” (Jacob 6:9). They will have “an awful view of their own guilt and abominations” (Mosiah 3:25). The scriptures describe this as “a lively sense of … guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever” (Mosiah 2:38).

7. The awful demands of justice upon those who have violated the laws of God, the “state of misery and endless torment” (Mosiah 3:25) described in these scriptures, can be mediated by the atonement of Jesus Christ. This is the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ...Elder Scott. Anything that brings us closer to God is good. Anything that draws us away is sin. I doubt that the man who posed the original question here is drawing closer to God by living this lie. We justify every sin, big and small - I do it too - to avoid suffering. But eventually the suffering will come and we will have to pay for what we've done, UNLESS we repent and allow Christ to carry the burden. Read Elder Wirthlin's talk Spiritual Bonfires of Testimony. He explains it much better than I ever could.

Edited October 21, 2011 by jmpcs

[Gwen]

My "right answer" doesn't come from myself. I rarely trust myself to have the right answer, but I always trust God and the prophets. This is from Elder Scott: 1. One of the principal purposes of this life is for God to test his children, to see whether we will keep his commandments. (See Abr. 3:25.)

2. Therefore, this life is “a probationary time,” as Alma called it, “a time to repent and serve God” (Alma 42:4).

3. The breaking of a commandment of God is sin.

4. In the final judgment, we will stand before God to be judged according to our works. (See Alma 11:41; 3 Ne. 26:4; D&C 19:3.)

5. For every sin there is “a punishment affixed.” (Alma 42:18; see also Amos 3:1–2.)

6. Those who have broken the commandments of God and have not repented in this life will “stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God” (Jacob 6:9). They will have “an awful view of their own guilt and abominations” (Mosiah 3:25). The scriptures describe this as “a lively sense of … guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever” (Mosiah 2:38).

7. The awful demands of justice upon those who have violated the laws of God, the “state of misery and endless torment” (Mosiah 3:25) described in these scriptures, can be mediated by the atonement of Jesus Christ. This is the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ...Elder Scott. Anything that brings us closer to God is good. Anything that draws us away is sin. I doubt that the man who posed the original question here is drawing closer to God by living this lie. We justify every sin, big and small - I do it too - to avoid suffering. But eventually the suffering will come and we will have to pay for what we've done, UNLESS we repent and allow Christ to carry the burden. Read Elder Wirthlin's talk Spiritual Bonfires of Testimony. He explains it much better than I ever could.

I almost agree with you. I agree with everything but what I put in bold. Yes sin takes us away from god. Yes sin will eat away at a testimony. Yes some do not repent or justify to avoid suffering. I agree that anything that brings us closer to god is good.

Where I disagree is what I put in bold.

The second sentence I put in bold because I won't make that judgment about the op simply based on the struggling testimony. I don't know his entire life story and that judgment isn't mine to make.

For the first part, "Anything that draws us away is sin." I disagree with "anything". All sin will draw us away from god but not everything that draws us away is sin. For example......

When a parent loses their child and they become distraught and may start thinking "I follow the commandments. I do the best I can. I repent when I need to. My child didn't deserve to die. Where are the promises god has made? How could he do this to my baby?....." or when the pain doesn't go away, when no comfort can be found and they start thinking "Where is the comforter god promised? Why has he left me when I need him most? I just want to stop hurting. I just want peace, haven't I been righteous enough to deserve that much?"

Those are expressed doubts. That is a struggle of testimony. The kind of struggle some don't win. It wasn't brought about by sin. The person wasn't sinning to deserve the event that preceded the thoughts. It's a product of being in this world. Bad things sometimes happen to good ppl. Those terrible events can draw us away but they aren't sin. Yes they may be the product of someone else sinning (for example if the child were killed due to a drunk driver) but that is what makes it a trial of testimony. You didn't deserve it and you didn't choose it. It happened and you are left to deal with it. And sometimes we are left to deal with it on our own. We are tested to see if we can believe and trust god when it's hardest. He lets go of the bike for a moment. It doesn't mean the peace won't come eventually. But for the child sitting on the ground with the busted knee in tears that eventually even if only a short moment can seem like a life time.

I sometimes think about an experience with my son. He has night seizures and one night it was very different than other nights. He was conscious. He was drawn up in convulsions like times before but he was looking at me and he asked "what's happening?" I told him he was having a seizure and we talked through the entire thing. He talked about trying to control his body and he couldn't make it stop. He asked me why I didn't help him. It was excruciating. I was there, I was holding him, I was talking to him, but I could do nothing. I couldn't stop it, I couldn't fix it, all I could do is watch. This is a trial he must fight, he must deal with, he must face. I can't take it away from him and I can't stop it. I can be there with a hug and words of support but I can't do this for him. It's his fight to fight.

God is our father, we are his children. Sometimes there are fights only we can fight. Sometimes we bring those battles upon ourselves, sometimes we don't. He is there but he can't do it for us. That is the ultimate test in this life. Even Christ wasn't exempt from that test. In the garden he asked if there was any way to let this cup pass from him. He was alone. I know some say it's because the father couldn't stand watching it and hid. I can't imagine such a cowardly parent. Of all the things I've seen my kids go through and as hard as some if it was I never ran out on them. Even when I can do nothing but stand by and watch and cry for them that's what I do. I know I'm not a more perfect parent than god. He did not hide himself. He was there. Just as I was there for my son during his seizure, he was there saying, "I can't do this for you. This is your fight."

There was no sin on Abraham's part when god told him to take Isaac up on the mountain. It wasn't a punishment, it was a trial of faith and testimony. In the end he chose to follow god but we don't know what happened between the command and following. Personally I believe he struggled, if he didn't then it wasn't a test and we couldn't be "tested as Abraham". We use the phrase because it was the hardest thing he ever had to do. He didn't have to do it because of sin, he had to do it because god gave it to him to do. He had to do it alone, he had to make a choice. It was the ultimate trial of testimony. In the end it doesn't matter how much wavering Abraham did between the command and the follow through, what matters is what he did in the end. It's not a sin to struggle.

Job didn't sin to bring about what he got. There was no sin. That is the point of the story and why it's shared. Sometimes all hell comes after you. The trial of testimony is how you handle it. We don't know what kind of doubts Job had, all we know is what he did in the end.

It's not right to judge someone in the middle of a struggle. You don't know where they will land in the end and you never know it may just be your love and support (not judgment and condemnation) that pull them through. God judges at the end of our lives for a reason, who are we to think we know better than him.

[jmpcs]

Gwen, all you've done in your last post is proved my point. We CAN go through trials and hardships and, obviously, sin, since we're all human, with our testimonies in tact. Abraham did and Job certainly did. It is our choice whether or not we give up our testimony - it's not just stripped from us through the circumstances of life. That's putting way too little accountability in our hands. Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart. If we break this commandment, start doubting him, questioning him, run from him, we don't truly love him with all our hearts. That is sin. Believe me, I have suffered through trials worse than you could ever imagine and never for a second did I doubt God's love for me or stop loving him. Just the opposite...this was when I needed him the most. My very closest friend on the earth taught me this when she lost two of her young children within five years of each other. She DID question. She DID wonder. What mother wouldn't?! What she DIDN'T do was doubt that God loved her and her children and she TRUSTED him. He was the only one who could truly comfort her. We don't know the whole picture, but if we trust Him, we will overcome. President Eyring gave an awesome talk on this a few years ago about two different families who had lost children. One trusted God and remained active in the church. The other became angry and bitter and fell away. Then their children were lost from the truth, and their children as well. Generations were deprived of having the gospel in their lives because of one family's unwillingness to trust God. That is sin. We all struggle from time to time with our testimonies, for whatever reason, but hopefully we try to strengthen it, not challenge it. I stick with my post...everything that draws us away from God is sin. Isn't that spiritual death and isn't that the very thing Christ came to overcome? I'm sure that your son, after one of his seizures, didn't doubt your love for him and didn't turn away from you just because you couldn't take his seizure away. I have nothing more to say.

[Gwen]

I think you have lost or missed the point of my objection. This is the post I object to.

There's more to it than you're telling. A person's testimony doesn't just disappear. I would bet a lot of money that you have done something very wrong and your way of justifying it is to say the church is not true. It makes it less painful, plus then you're off the hook with the whole repentance thing. If I had to guess it would be infidelity. I've seen it before...everything you've said is classic.

It's not your place, your right or in your knowledge if the op has a trial of testimony because of sin. Sometimes trials come without sin.

If you go around telling ppl that doubt that they only doubt because they are sinning and they aren't then you will do far more damage than if you ignored the fact that they had a trial to begin with. That attitude doesn't help. You blame them for the trial, tell them they are not good enough and if they could just have enough faith and be good enough things would be all better.

Sometimes you can't be good enough to create the change you need/want.

I just had this conversation with my son's principle. My son has an undiagnosed reading problem. His teacher and I know it's there but the school is dragging their feet to get him diagnosed properly so he can get the accommodations he needs. At progress report time he was failing. His teacher said "I can't watch this happen, he knows the answers. I'm not waiting for the school. I'm going to start reading his tests to him." That was all that changed. Report cards came out and he had all A's except in reading and spelling (C and D). He worked his butt off and I was proud of that report card. The principle made a comment about the kids with low grades (this included my son and his D), "If they would just work a little harder they could do better." That's not always true. My son couldn't work any harder. We worked until he was in tears. Had his teacher not changed what she was doing he would have had failing grades on that report card. The change he needed to do better was not in his control. For the principle to tell him "just work harder" only hurt him, broke him more, made him feel worse.

When you tell someone questioning that they are only experiencing this trial because they were sinning and not good enough and they are only questioning because they don't want to do better and are justifying sin is just as detrimental.

That was my objection.

I agree that many have trials and never question. Great for them. That doesn't mean that's everyone. I agree it's how you come out in the end. I agree trial does not have to take our testimony. But it can and it's not because the one struggling doesn't love god, or didn't have a strong enough testimony or they are sinning.

[Dravin]

When you tell someone questioning that they are only experiencing this trial because they were sinning and not good enough and they are only questioning because they don't want to do better and are justifying sin is just as detrimental.

Except he didn't say that. He said if you lose your testimony it's due to sin, the post you quote doesn't say anything about how people only experience trials because they are sinners. Did he later introduce the idea that trails only come from sin?

When you tell someone questioning that they are only experiencing this trial because they were sinning and not good enough and they are only questioning because they don't want to do better and are justifying sin is just as detrimental.

From what I can tell he's made such claims in reference to testimony not trials. As such, bearing in mind I may have missed where he made the actual argument, you seem to be objecting to a straw-man.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Dravin

[Gwen]

Dravin, yes I quoted a post but my response was not only based on that post but the entire conversation.

He flat out says that the person has lost their testimony because he has done something very wrong and wants to justify it because it's easier. Which is something he does not know nor can he.

He also says "If a testimony is real in the first place it can only be lost by not nurturing it and the thing that keeps us from nurturing it is sin." Which is also not true. A testimony can be pushed to it's limits without sin. That is not the "only" thing. If someone questions that does not mean they did not have a real testimony in the first place. Those too are judgements he is not qualified to make.

Specifically to me he says "I am certain that the times you have struggled as well were because you weren't doing what you knew you should be. You just don't want to admit that to yourself."

He doesn't know what I struggled over, why or when. He does not know what I was doing or what I admitted to myself. That is a judgment he is not qualified to make. I had ppl tell me there was something I was or wasn't doing or I wasn't being honest with myself, that was the reason I questioned. It pushed me further away it did not help me hold on when my grip was the weakest.

He also says "Anything that draws us away is sin." and "everything that draws us away from God is sin." That is not true. "Anything/everything" is what makes that untrue. "most" "frequently" "often" etc would be fine.

The message is clearly that we only lose testimony because we aren't close enough to god and that only happens due to sin. I don't believe that to be a true statement. I am saying that trials (in and of themselves sometimes not of our own making) can also have the same impact on our testimony. I have had personal experiences that make his assertion untrue for ALL cases (it would seem jenamarie has as well). Experiences that make my assertion also true. Not all loss of testimony is due to sin. There are some major parts of my testimony that were very real that I'm still working on rebuilding and they were not lost due to sin.

[Gwen]

Except he didn't say that. He said if you lose your testimony it's due to sin, the post you quote doesn't say anything about how people only experience trials because they are sinners. Did he later introduce the idea that trails only come from sin?

From what I can tell he's made such claims in reference to testimony not trials. As such, bearing in mind I may have missed where he made the actual argument, you seem to be objecting to a straw-man.

You edited while I was posting. The short response (see the longer post before this if you like lol) is that the message is that if you have a trial you won't lose your testimony. If you do it's because it wasn't real in the first place or you have/are sinning. His assertion is loss of testimony is due to sin (trial leads to sin leads to loss of testimony). Mine is that trial can also cause loss of testimony without sin (trial-loss of testimony-sometimes sin comes after and testimony is never regained or sin is avoided and testimony can be rebuilt).

Edited October 25, 2011 by Gwen

[Dravin]

He also says "If a testimony is real in the first place it can only be lost by not nurturing it and the thing that keeps us from nurturing it is sin." Which is also not true. A testimony can be pushed to it's limits without sin. That is not the "only" thing. If someone questions that does not mean they did not have a real testimony in the first place. Those too are judgements he is not qualified to make.

At some point one makes the choice to stop believing, at that point ignoring all other possible factors one has decided to violate the commandment to believe. Ergo, one does not lose their testimony without sinning. Depending on your point of view that may or may not be considered an egregious sin.

Specifically to me he says "I am certain that the times you have struggled as well were because you weren't doing what you knew you should be. You just don't want to admit that to yourself."

Well in a technical sense he's kinda right, but as a practical matter no. Theoretically a perfect person would not question, and we're supposed to be doing the perfect thing, but as a practical matter one can be quite actively engaged in doing all that they know how to do and struggle. I missed the quoted sentence in my quick skim through, I agree with you that not only is he not really in a position to make that kind of call, but it's also of limited utility to just point and declare, "Thou art being imperfect."

He also says "Anything that draws us away is sin." and "everything that draws us away from God is sin." That is not true. "Anything/everything" is what makes that untrue. "most" "frequently" "often" etc would be fine.

Actually I agree with him there. But I hold the premise that we are supposed to hold a perfect trust and love in God, I rather suspect none of us actually do (I certainly don't) mind you, but it is what we are supposed to be doing. By not doing this, by sinning (we are commanded to be perfect after all), we allow ourselves to be drawn away from God. Another way to phrase this may be that imperfection draws us away from God and if we were perfect we could not and would not be drawn away from him.

Which makes it a sin in a technical sense, but once again the utility of declaring, "If you were perfect you'd not have imperfections" is limited.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Dravin