"Revealing Outfit" - seriously?

[RMGuy]

My take....we need to be a bit less uptight.

-RM

[carlimac]

I don't agree that this co-ed has to take it on the chin, to save the Church. Perhaps your church is stronger than that, and perhaps she deserves credit for exposing this type of thinking for the foolishness it is. The mopping up might actually be a good thing, in this case.

So we're supposed to publicly expose every stupid thing anyone does to us? Isn't that a little immature? The note was one self righteous act by one person. It wasn't a professor or BYU administration or anyone in authority over her. If it was administration, yes, get the mop. As far as I can tell she had no idea who the person was and may never see them again. The note wasn't abusive or threatening in any way. It was just stupid. In this scenario isn't it better to just say, "Oh well, to each his own."

What do you think the Savior would have done? I can see him smiling to himself and thinking, "That person has a few lessons to learn." Or maybe feeling pity for the note writer or reciting the 13th article of faith or reminding himself of his own Sermon on the Mount, or perhaps realizing that no one is perfect and maybe the person criticizing has a problem with their limbic system. (I'm reading a book by Dr Amen who does SPECT scans of the brain and can see that with many personality and behavior problems, brainwaves in certain areas are over or underactive.)

I wonder now after all this publicity if the girl would do it all again the same way- post the same thing on facebook, or if she might have learned that this little incident might be better to just laugh about with roommates rather than drawing unneeded negative attention and press to BYU that will be spun and misconstrued in any number of ways. Says me. I don't believe she would be taking it on the chin for the church. I believe she needs to take it on the chin for herself and grow up a little. Yes the note was out of line. But for Pete's sake (poor Pete. We should change that to Henry or Wilbur every now and then), the world is out of line and we're going to implode on ourselves if we can't take a little personal or individual criticism whether it's warranted or not.

Edited February 20, 2012 by carlimac

[LDSJewess]

The photo I saw was not all that clear so hard to comment, but personally I think the harsh note was far more inappropriate than the outfit.

As for what I saw of the outfit in the photo in the op's link, I thought it was rather cute and reasonably appropriate especially for a college kid.

The neckline would have very likely covered garments, althought tights unless they were "leggings" would not conceal garments although actual knit leggings (such as knit skinny jeans) do worn over a tunic style top.

If the school had an issue on the girl being in compliance with the dress code, it would have been appropriate for them to call her to the office to discuss. Another student or anyone outside the authority of the school administration is not the fashion police.

I have found that people tend to mature into fashion that is appropriate for them. At our ward there are occasional women that are well beyond college age and show up in relief society wearing skirts or sundrtesses (warm climate here). The rest lead by example not by nasty comments or notes. Eventually the women adjust their attire and of course once they have been to Temple they will adjust to comply with the wearing of their garments.

Meanwhile the best thing the fellow classmates or other members can do is treat others with the love and respect that we would want to be treated. :)

[Hala401]

Am I going to have to go into my rant again about how tights are not pants, no matter how opaque they may be? Her dress is short. But if that outfit is getting him all hot and bothered, he might have other problems.

In Islam, it is always the woman's fault if some man can not control himself. In Christianity 8.1 women are still being flogged over the apple incident. I think that she just needs to blow this guy off. He's probably not husband material anyhow. Maybe she should ask him if he would prefer she wear Burqua? Ooops sorry, now that I am a newly numbered member, I must behave.

Lds is new to me. Women are not always the "fall women".

[carlimac]

In Islam, it is always the woman's fault if some man can not control himself. In Christianity 8.1 women are still being flogged over the apple incident. I think that she just needs to blow this guy off. He's probably not husband material anyhow. Maybe she should ask him if he would prefer she wear Burqua? Ooops sorry, now that I am a newly numbered member, I must behave.

Lds is new to me. Women are not always the "fall women".

No it isn't her fault. I didn't see anything wrong with her outfit. The guy was a jerk. But she over reacted by posting it on facebook. It's not like all the guys at BYU are thinking the same thing this guy was and writing notes to girls like this.

[prisonchaplain]

So we're supposed to publicly expose every stupid thing anyone does to us? Isn't that a little immature? The note was one self righteous act by one person. It wasn't a professor or BYU administration or anyone in authority over her. If it was administration, yes, get the mop. As far as I can tell she had no idea who the person was and may never see them again. The note wasn't abusive or threatening in any way. It was just stupid. In this scenario isn't it better to just say, "Oh well, to each his own."

The co-ed was not railing against BYU's stifling atmosphere, but against a male student who judged her, insulted her, and, in today's age, subjected her to a huge creepiness factor. Is the boy stocking her, for example?

So, she took matters into her own hands, and exposed it publically, thus nipping it in the bud. Not everything goes viral, and she had no reason to think this particular one would. Besides, the school and church can certainly handle the fact that a few of its members can be clothing nazis.

What do you think the Savior would have done? I can see him smiling to himself and thinking, "That person has a few lessons to learn." Or maybe feeling pity for the note writer or reciting the 13th article of faith or reminding himself of his own Sermon on the Mount, or perhaps realizing that no one is perfect and maybe the person criticizing has a problem with their limbic system. (I'm reading a book by Dr Amen who does SPECT scans of the brain and can see that with many personality and behavior problems, brainwaves in certain areas are over or underactive.)

Actually, Jesus did face this. He was accused of eating and drinking with sinners. I believe one response he gave was to say that he came not for the self-righteous, but for sinners. The establishment Pharisees/Sadduccees probably hoped for a quieter response.

I wonder now after all this publicity if the girl would do it all again the same way- post the same thing on facebook, or if she might have learned that this little incident might be better to just laugh about with roommates rather than drawing unneeded negative attention and press to BYU that will be spun and misconstrued in any number of ways. Says me. I don't believe she would be taking it on the chin for the church. I believe she needs to take it on the chin for herself and grow up a little. Yes the note was out of line. But for Pete's sake (poor Pete. We should change that to Henry or Wilbur every now and then), the world is out of line and we're going to implode on ourselves if we can't take a little personal or individual criticism whether it's warranted or not.

But doesn't telling her to be quiet just feed the very stereotype (about BYU, perhaps even about the Church) that you are trying to negate? If BYU is not an uptight place, where students may dress creatively, within reasonably modest boundaries, and where they may explore ideas freely, then why shouldn't this co-ed feel free to post this nasty little note, and say, "I thought we were past this kind of nonsense?"

BTW...I think that was Snow's point...if you complain about the student drawing negative attention to BYU by talking about this issue, then won't continuing to talk about it, by complaining about the girl's actions, just bring more negative attention to the school?

The great thing about America is that we do get to complain. It's one of our sovereign rights.

Edited February 20, 2012 by prisonchaplain

[LDSJewess]

Prison Chaplain,

Regarding the Facebook issue, I don't necessarily think that opposing the idea that one take their grievances to Facebook means the girl should keep quite if there has been a wrong doing against her.

However that being said, I am a very active "Facebooker" and since I have two business interests I have a lot of "frienmds" from varied ages and backgrounds. One common thing that really annoys me is when people take their "griveances to the Facebook wall. More often than not there is an agenda on the posters part, and it is not to merely speak out against an injustice, rather they want to gather others to their camp. It reminds me of the old middle school days when a person has an issue with someone and then rounds up and rallies others to take their side. All this serves to do is to create a herd mentality and causes even more contention. These manipulative posts make me cringe just as much as an offensive letter would.

I don't have a problem with the outfit from what I could see in the photo. If BYU has a problem and it's against their policies then they can contact and discuss it diorectly with the girl. It is a private school and they are within their full right to exercise their policies.

As for the offending note; if the girl could not get past the note by simply ignorging the author of the note, then she could have taken it up with him and said that his note was offensive to her and left it at that.

It is not a matter of speaking out against offenses, it is about the growth experience of learning when and where it is best to speak out or handle the situation.

[carlimac]

The co-ed was not railing against BYU's stifling atmosphere, but against a male student who judged her, insulted her, and, in today's age, subjected her to a huge creepiness factor. Is the boy stocking her, for example?

So, she took matters into her own hands, and exposed it publically, thus nipping it in the bud. Not everything goes viral, and she had no reason to think this particular one would. Besides, the school and church can certainly handle the fact that a few of its members can be clothing nazis.

Actually, Jesus did face this. He was accused of eating and drinking with sinners. I believe one response he gave was to say that he came not for the self-righteous, but for sinners. The establishment Pharisees/Sadduccees probably hoped for a quieter response.

But doesn't telling her to be quiet just feed the very stereotype (about BYU, perhaps even about the Church) that you are trying to negate? If BYU is not an uptight place, where students may dress creatively, within reasonably modest boundaries, and where they may explore ideas freely, then why shouldn't this co-ed feel free to post this nasty little note, and say, "I thought we were past this kind of nonsense?"

BTW...I think that was Snow's point...if you complain about the student drawing negative attention to BYU by talking about this issue, then won't continuing to talk about it, by complaining about the girl's actions, just bring more negative attention to the school?

The great thing about America is that we do get to complain. It's one of our sovereign rights.

I went to BYU. No, exposing it isn't going to nip anything in the bud. There will always be the overzealous students at BYU. ALWAYS! Every university has someone who is militant about something that is going to offend someone else. it comes with the territory. They may not write a note but it will come out in other ways. I'm not telling her to be quiet. I'm just telling her to get some perspective. How will she feel about her reaction to this tiny, obscure, stupid little incident when shes 75? Was it worth it?

I'm not bringing negative attention to the school. If anything, I'm defending BYU's character and trying to isolate this incident and show it for what it is... A silly little experience one girl had at school. I see myself as part of the mop-up crew.

[HappyTimes]

People, come on. This is the stuff that Facebook is made for! Someone made an offensive, hurtful gesture where none was warranted. She passed it on as a little story like we all do to our friends and family in the year 2012, because it was an interesting event in her life, and one that had a personal cut to it.

What happened from there was not her fault. If other people thought it was interesting or shocking enough to comment on and share, that's because it was again, an interesting event. It's not like it's some group out to get us Mormons and make us look bad... A huge chunk of, if not the majority of the people outraged by it and passing it on are LDS. I can't find the post that I saw it on right now, but the LDS friend that shared it said something simple like, "Really? I thought we were past this".

The Church didn't do this, BYU didn't even do this. Anybody pretending that she was attacking either didn't read the post, and instead got caught up in some of the negative comments. BYU doesn't need "Mop Up" units, it does what it does well, and will be just fine. Same goes for the Church.

[Echo2002]

This is one of the reasons I did not care to attend BYU, they put too much emphasis on dress. When I attended an EFY dance I was asked to change because my shorts were too short, they were maybe a half inch off my knee, lol. I agree people don't need to look like they are going out to da club or completely sloppy, but use some common sense.

I've noticed the leggin trend coming back a lot of girls wear them at church. I couldn't tell much from the picture. She didn't have any cleavage showing, but I guess if she were wearing garments they would be showing at the top. Nothing for this guy to get in a fuss about.

[mrmarklin]

Ms. Molina was as surprised as anyone when this went viral.

She went from having a few twitter followers to almost 900 last time I looked. So yes, this was a joke pic between her and her friends.

She is not wearing tights, but leggings, which my toddler grandaughter also wears. They are a fairly thick and bulky knit stocking.

Every woman to whom I've mentioned this incident, has thought that the note giver has serious mental and relationship problems, most of which cannot be mentioned in mixed company.

[prisonchaplain]

Prison Chaplain,

As for the offending note; if the girl could not get past the note by simply ignorging the author of the note, then she could have taken it up with him and said that his note was offensive to her and left it at that.

It is not a matter of speaking out against offenses, it is about the growth experience of learning when and where it is best to speak out or handle the situation.

She didn't know who the guy was, could not recognize him in a crowd, and did not know if perhaps he was spreading gossip about her. I understand all you said about Facebook, and that perhaps this gal is trying to gain popularity by being a public victim. On the other hand, she was the victim, and I'd be slow in judging her motives.

[prisonchaplain]

I went to BYU. No, exposing it isn't going to nip anything in the bud. There will always be the overzealous students at BYU. ALWAYS! Every university has someone who is militant about something that is going to offend someone else. it comes with the territory. They may not write a note but it will come out in other ways. I'm not telling her to be quiet. I'm just telling her to get some perspective. How will she feel about her reaction to this tiny, obscure, stupid little incident when shes 75? Was it worth it?

I'm not bringing negative attention to the school. If anything, I'm defending BYU's character and trying to isolate this incident and show it for what it is... A silly little experience one girl had at school. I see myself as part of the mop-up crew.

You're in a better position than me to know the culture of the school, and what kind of issue people might use to criticize it. On the other hand, it still seems to me that her post on Facebook was a rather small reaction to this incident...and we are only talking about it and questioning her response because it happened to go viral.

[FunkyTown]

It's not BYU that sent her the note, it was one crazy dude.

It going viral would embarass him more than BYU, I would think. Of course, I would also think that the average person is smart enough to ignore attack ads in political campaign as they've done their own research in to who they'd vote for, so I'm not the best judge of these sorts of things.

[Jezebel2011]

This is one of the reasons I did not care to attend BYU, they put too much emphasis on dress. When I attended an EFY dance I was asked to change because my shorts were too short, they were maybe a half inch off my knee, lol. I agree people don't need to look like they are going out to da club or completely sloppy, but use some common sense.

I've noticed the leggin trend coming back a lot of girls wear them at church. I couldn't tell much from the picture. She didn't have any cleavage showing, but I guess if she were wearing garments they would be showing at the top. Nothing for this guy to get in a fuss about.

No, they wouldn't show at all

[Just_A_Guy]

This is one of the reasons I did not care to attend BYU, they put too much emphasis on dress. When I attended an EFY dance I was asked to change because my shorts were too short, they were maybe a half inch off my knee, lol. I agree people don't need to look like they are going out to da club or completely sloppy, but use some common sense.

I've noticed the leggin trend coming back a lot of girls wear them at church. I couldn't tell much from the picture. She didn't have any cleavage showing, but I guess if she were wearing garments they would be showing at the top. Nothing for this guy to get in a fuss about.

A couple of thoughts:

1) My wife is probably one of the most conservative dressers I know, but she had a similar experience at BYU when, as a TA, one of her male students harangued her in front of the entire class because her shorts had ridden up and were about two-three inches above her kneecap. (The class consensus, reached once this guy had stormed out, was that the guy was a jerk.)

2) In this case, the girl's outfit doesn't look very becoming (to me, anyways); but I don't see any honor code issue with it.

3) On the other hand, looking at the girl's Facebook page and blog . . . she doesn't always dress "to code". It may be worth noting the possibility that the note's author has seen the girl "pushing the envelope" in the past and that the note was more of a reaction to prior outfits than to the one she was wearing on that day.

4) After intensive handwriting analysis (well, sort-of), the perp has been tentatively identified; and it sounds like the guy has issues.

5) Guys are responsible for their own reactions to women's bodies.

6) Women should realize that if they dress like an object, they will be treated like an object.

7) Can't we all just get along?

[bytor2112]

My .02.....students should stop being the clothing police and leave that to administration. Focus more on the inside and a whole lot less on the out.

[Jennarator]

Even though I think the outfit was not within dress code, (I think it was the "above the knee thing, not the neckline) I think the admin should handle it, not a student. I agree with those that think this is pretty silly, and it does NOT deserve all this media.

When I went to BYU-I people wore things I didn't think fit the code, but it wasn't that bad, either. I figure if admin needed to say something, they would. If not, so be it.

[Guest tomk]

As the OP, it's been interesting reading everyone's viewpoints!

A few of my thoughts:

1) Even if knee length or neckline did not meet BYU Honor Code standards for some reason - I personally did not find the outfit to be immodest in any way.

2) This never would have appeared on Yahoo if the girl had not made the encounter public in the first place. I tend to agree with others who have suggested - this may be a ploy by this girl for more online popularity.

3) I don't think the note was necessary in the first place. That guy who wrote the note comes off to me as a self-righteous busy-body.

Overall - the whole thing is a bit ridiculous.

Also - Yahoo must be really getting desperate for good news articles. I think there are still many in the media who have this grudge against anything that has to do with Mormonism, and by extension, anything associated with Mormonism (BYU, Mitt Romney). In other words, lots of things that happen might otherwise not get reported except for the fact that a Mormon was involved. The liberal media loves stirring things up and getting people all excited and / or prejudicing them. Mitt Romney of course needs to be discussed by everybody. When you run for President, your entire life will be on display and under scrutiny.

[RMGuy]

Perhaps if we were concerned with what the students were learning, or if they were acting in a Christlike manner, being good citizens etc. and less interested in what they were wearing...then we wouldn't have these kinds of stories.

Something about teach them correct principles...

I think there were others that had rules about who could where what and when and how...seems like it was somewhere in the old testament.

-RM

[Hala401]

Perhaps if we were concerned with what the students were learning, or if they were acting in a Christlike manner, being good citizens etc. and less interested in what they were wearing...then we wouldn't have these kinds of stories.

Something about teach them correct principles...

I think there were others that had rules about who could where what and when and how...seems like it was somewhere in the old testament.

-RM

There are so many factors in this... I am hoping that she learns from this. There really is little need to "push things" but we all do it. It's a good thing that I am too old to act on some of my clothing impulses. LOL Back in the day... NOPE!

There are so many reasons that they guy did what he did.

So, I forgot if this is college age or high school. At any rate youngsters that age are all about getting their brains to unfog.

Personally a Mini dress with leggings? I couldn't make it work for me.

[Hala401]

Well, finally got motivated to actually go to FB and look her up an SEE the outfit. Hmmmm As a brand new member, with membership record number, :) , well I haven't seen anything that short in church. I did wear a pink and white shirt dress that was about knee length but with leggings; more the Salwar Kameeze look, and later got the talk about pants not being allowed in church. Hmmmm. It was a very indirect, um talkin to, so my feelings weren't hurt. I wasn't even sure it was about what I had worn.

If she were my daughter, NOPE girl not to church, but that is just me.

[prisonchaplain]

Check this out: Berea Baptist Church- 859-986-9391 > dress code guidelines

Sigh...wannabes. (kidding [insert smilelycon with tongue sticking out])

[Hala401]

Check this out: Berea Baptist Church- 859-986-9391 > dress code guidelines

Sigh...wannabes. (kidding [insert smilelycon with tongue sticking out])

Well, I totally get the deodorant, cologne thing. I have big time breathing problems when I get around that stuff.

It's like totally funny to find um "religious police" in the LDS University. In Saudi Arabia, they are called Mutaween. Hmmm. Maybe not SO much difference between Islam and LDS.

LOL

[Vort]

Well, I totally get the deodorant, cologne thing. I have big time breathing problems when I get around that stuff.

It's like totally funny to find um "religious police" in the LDS University. In Saudi Arabia, they are called Mutaween. Hmmm. Maybe not SO much difference between Islam and LDS.

LOL

For the record (and I realize you were only joking): BYU has no "religious police" or even "standards police". They do have an Honor Code or Standards office (not sure of the official name), but to compare that to the Mutaween is severe hyperbole.