Council in Heaven

[circusboy01]

I learned,years ago,that we were all present at the Council in Heaven. Where we learned of Heavenly Fathers Plan of Salvation. That means everybody from Adam to the last child born, right before the earth,as we know it is no more. Right?

Just want to make sure I've understood it correctly all these years. Brother Ray

[FunkyTown]

I learned,years ago,that we were all present at the Council in Heaven. Where we learned of Heavenly Fathers Plan of Salvation. That means everybody from Adam to the last child born, right before the earth,as we know it is no more. Right?

Just want to make sure I've understood it correctly all these years. Brother Ray

Everyone who is here agreed to be here.

[circusboy01]

Everyone who is here agreed to be here.

Including all who are yet to be born. Right? Brother Ray

[FunkyTown]

Including all who are yet to be born. Right? Brother Ray

Well, it was before the world, so it would have to be.

[BenRaines]

All spirit children of Heavenly Father were there. Even those who will never be born in to mortal existence. Spirits that rebelled were there too.

Ben Raines

[circusboy01]

All spirit children of Heavenly Father were there. Even those who will never be born in to mortal existence. Spirits that rebelled were there too.

Ben Raines

Yes I know that the 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven who were cast out with Lucifer were there too. I just forgot to mention them.

Every person born. From Adam through generations yet to come. Mind boggling.

[LinuxGal]

Yes I know that the 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven who were cast out with Lucifer were there too.

Revelation says the great dragon cast down a third of the stars from heaven to earth. The ancients believed the stars were little lights fixed in a metal roof, apt to fall. When folks figured out the stars were suns, this was re-interpreted to mean fallen angels. But a theology where Satan and a third of the angels are on one "team" is a human tradition. It could be Satan and five angels.

Edited June 17, 2012 by LinuxGal

[pam]

I think we have to remember that it was not 1/3 the hosts of heaven. It was 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven. That makes a diffeence.

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[circusboy01]

I think we have to remember that it was not 1/3 the Hosts of heaven. It was 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven. That makes a diffeence.

Okay. I'm a dummy. What is the difference between 1/3of the hosts of Heaven, and 1/3 part of the Hosts of Heaven?

[skippy740]

I don't know either, but somehow I think it's similar to the difference between:

6 dozen dozen

or

1/2 a dozen dozen

:)

[bytebear]

Three parts, but not all parts are necessarily equal in size.

[circusboy01]

Three parts, but not all parts are necessarily equal in size.

I understand what you're saying. But I'm confused. 1/3 part would mean that there were 2 parts left. I know there was us, and the ones that sided with Lucifer. That's 2 parts What was the other part?

[skippy740]

I have my own theory: 1 part was to come to earth before the other part (for the latter days - today).

I do know that there is no doctrine regarding anyone being "less valiant" in the pre-existence.

[Misshalfway]

Everyone who is here agreed to be here.

Oh I wanted to be here, alright. Only I wanted to come a long time ago. I wanted to be a cowboy and like ride like the wind and stuff. But somebody named Jessie James cut in line. Jerk. And now I have to be here with you people.

[classylady]

Oh I wanted to be here, alright. Only I wanted to come a long time ago. I wanted to be a cowboy and like ride like the wind and stuff. But somebody named Jessie James cut in line. Jerk. And now I have to be here with you people.

Unfortunately, most women born during those times wouldn't have been given the choice/chance to become a cowgirl. Now, that would have been hard, to want to be one, and not be allowed to, just because you're female. Plus, can you imagine having to ride side-saddle? I'm grateful that I live in this day and age where I have so many choices.

[Traveler]

I understand what you're saying. But I'm confused. 1/3 part would mean that there were 2 parts left. I know there was us, and the ones that sided with Lucifer. That's 2 parts What was the other part?

It may help you to understand that anciently math theory only included whole numbers and that fractions were not understood or used. When the scriptures say - a one third part - this implies a division into three parts.

It may be interesting to note that following the flood that the children of men were divided (as we were in heaven) into 3 parts as symbolically represented in the three sons of Noah (Shem, Japheth, and Ham). Also that the children of men will again be divided into three parts in the resurrection.

Two of the divided parts are identified specifically in scripture. They are the one part that followed Lucifer and the other part is identified in the Book of Abraham as "The Noble and Great) - or as in Alma 13 - those that exercised great faith. Alma indirectly identifies the final part as those that did not exercise great faith (what-ever that means).

One thing we should not do is attempt to identify (especially by race) anyone on earth that we think belongs in the not so much faith category.

The Traveler

[skippy740]

My personal thought on those of "not so much faith" category COULD BE those who were born into the church. Perhaps we needed more opportunities to be guided by the truth, instead of trusting that we will 'stumble' upon it later in our mortal life.

Sometimes I wonder if I would have accepted the gospel if I wasn't born into the faith. Thank the Lord that I was, cause I don't know if I would've been receptive otherwise.

Just a thought.

[circusboy01]

One thing we should not do is attempt to identify (especially by race) anyone on earth that we think belongs in the not so much faith category.

The Traveler

I understand what you mean. Long ago I was told that a certain group of people were "Fence Sitters" in the War in Heaven They waited to see who was winning before they chose a side. I am ashamed to say that for a long time. (before I knew better.) I spread this false information. Brother Ray

[Anddenex]

I do know that there is no doctrine regarding anyone being "less valiant" in the pre-existence.

Now this is very interesting and have wondered why people think this is such. I would say that there is doctrine that people were less valiant in the pre-mortal life, when reading Abraham 3: 22-25.

How would God choose among some, to be leaders, if there was no body more valiant than anybody else?

Why are leaders chosen? Character? Obedience? Knowledge? Goodness?

We know that the Lord saw these souls as good? If all were the same, none more good than others, why would the Lord specify that they were good?

I would also say, Jesus, was more valiant than me when abiding his father's and our father's will.

The idea, within Kolob, one star being closer and above other stars also represents people who can be more intelligent, or even more valiant (unless a person only interprets this aspect pertaining to our earth life)

I would also venture to say, that the third part which left and rebelled were less valiant in the cause and plan God provided his children, than those who chose to continue in the right path.

Your statement, is made as one of authority and one with knowledge, thus I would be curious to your answer with regard to the scriptures I have shared, and why you feel, "[you] know that there is no doctrine regarding anyone being "less valiant" in the pre-existence"

Thank you in advance.

[skippy740]

D&C 121:34

Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen.

The answer is a simple one: God chooses whom He wants to fulfill certain promises at various times.

However, I would quickly point out that those that God has chosen probably do not number as a 1/3 part of the Hosts of Heaven. These are they who were called before the world was in order to fulfill prophesy and lead His children.

Does that mean they were "more valiant"? That implies that they 'earned' their place in the pre-existence (somehow) in the plan of salvation. Perhaps they were a 'messenger' or a teacher for us before we came. I don't know how it all worked out.

What we do know is that they were chosen by the Father. We also know that they are NOT infallable.

The other part that we know is that the "less valiant" were not those of African (black) descent. That was old folklore that has since been repudiated.

Most people's patriarchal blessings speak about their place in premortal life. Mine does - and I have yet to hear anyone's blessing that says "you weren't valiant enough in heaven".

The fact is, is that God can choose whom He wants to fulfill His purposes. As to why some are called and some are not - may be due to pride (as we read in verse 35).

We are also counseled in this life, through our church service, not to aspire to callings - like Bishop, Stake President or other leadership positions. We need to be content with our callings and execute them to the best of our ability.

This reminds me of the parable of the talents. Yes, there was one who received 5 talents, another 2 talents and another 1. Their job was to do the best they could with the talents they received... not focus on the fact that the last one only got '1 talent'. Did the person who got 1 talent sin in order to not be considered worthy of more? (In my mind, he sinned by not using the talent that he received.)

But aside from Jesus, I would not put a man's standing with the Lord lower or higher than my own - including other good men like prophets and apostles. Each person needs to work out their own salvation and live righteously.

Leaders are chosen by God - and I'll let Him continue to choose leaders according to His will and not lean upon my own understanding.

[Anddenex]

D&C 121:34

The answer is a simple one: God chooses whom He wants to fulfill certain promises at various times.

I fully agree with the principle of this statement. I don't see how this answers that no one was less valiant in the pre-mortal life.

Many called but few are chosen, has been connected to a person's choice to listen to the spirit of the Lord. It is also specified that one aspect of them not being chosen is a person's desire for the honor's of men.

We know that the honor's of men, desiring glory for oneself instead of glorifying God, was exhibited by Satan in the council of heaven.

However, I would quickly point out that those that God has chosen probably do not number as a 1/3 part of the Hosts of Heaven. These are they who were called before the world was in order to fulfill prophesy and lead His children.

Does that mean they were "more valiant"? That implies that they 'earned' their place in the pre-existence (somehow) in the plan of salvation. Perhaps they were a 'messenger' or a teacher for us before we came. I don't know how it all worked out.

In my minds eye, the ability to "earn" represents a person being more valiant than another.

I would agree, I definitely don't know how it all worked out, and it doesn't bother me if a person was more valiant than I.

What we do know is that they were chosen by the Father. We also know that they are NOT infallable.

I am assuming "they" means Father, and I would agree we definitely know they were not infallible.

The other part that we know is that the "less valiant" were not those of African (black) descent. That was old folklore that has since been repudiated.

No disagreement here.

Most people's patriarchal blessings speak about their place in premortal life. Mine does - and I have yet to hear anyone's blessing that says "you weren't valiant enough in heaven".

Interesting, my patriarchal blessing tells me nothing regarding my place in the pre-mortal life.

The idea presented "you weren't valiant enough in heaven" doesn't negate that others were more valiant, it only specifies that the individual was valiant enough, and I would agree.

The fact is, is that God can choose whom He wants to fulfill His purposes. As to why some are called and some are not - may be due to pride (as we read in verse 35).

I couldn't agree more that God can choose whom He wants to fulfill His purpose. In connection to pride, which comes before falls, if this being a choice, then a person who exhibited less pride, and more obedience and faithfulness, would (at least to me) specify someone is/was more valiant.

But aside from Jesus, I would not put a man's standing with the Lord lower or higher than my own - including other good men like prophets and apostles. Each person needs to work out their own salvation and live righteously.

This is where I am not bothered by someone having a higher standing before the Lord than me, and I would put people in a higher standing than I.

In my mind's eye, I definitely see President Monson having a higher standing than I do. I would say the same for all the prophets. I am not bothered, because I know they have made better decisions in this life than I have, however, as we all work out our own salvation, I definitely can reach the same standing as they have with God, at which I do not now enjoy at this time.

Leaders are chosen by God - and I'll let Him continue to choose leaders according to His will and not lean upon my own understanding.

I couldn't agree more, and thank you for responding and providing some points to ponder.

[annewandering]

oh I dont know. I know for a fact there are a lot of people way more valiant than I am. It is just that we arent from any particular ethnic, social, intellectual, etc group. Valiant cuts across all barriers and divisions. So does not so valiant.

I have often wondered if there isnt a group of people/spirits that chose to come here, not because they agreed with God and with Jesus, but because they saw more gain for themselves if they went along with the valiant. I am speaking of those like Cain, sons of perdition and others that are not so easy to see but are not here for eternal salvation. They are not the lazy spiritually. They are proactive spiritually but not in Godly ways.

I can see how they might be the third part.

[Traveler]

The scriptures present the three groups quite clearly by identifying the 3 sons of Noah.

The first son is Shem and he represents the heir, chosen or what anciently was called “The First Born” or also the “Nobel and Great”. In my mind these are all symbolic terms and should not be understood so much as something specific. However, a study of ancient cultures and kingdoms indicates that the first born of a kingdom are in essence the ruling autocracy or bureaucracy. During the middle or dark ages we see this class preserved as “The L-rds” or “Nobel” class. It was believed that they alone had, by divine right, the place to rule and right to sit in judgment as king or Nobles. We also see this class today in the military as the officers that are very separate from the “enlisted” class. They assume command (by position and not by ability) and are addressed differently in protocol as sir and the higher rank (all officers are higher than any enlisted) never salutes first but returns respect or salute. Please note that the term “Israel” was an indication of the covenant or chosen that have claim to the covenant. So being of the “House of Israel” is an indication of the greater class.

The Second son is Japheth and he represents what is often referred to in scriptures as “The Gentiles”. It is important to note that the gentiles are not of necessity in opposition to the noble class but are in essence subservient, overseen and taken care of by the noble class much like are the “enlisted” class in the military. From a scripture stand point – I believe it is very interesting that we are given to understand that leading into the “Last Days” that the covenant people (Israel) will be mixed with the Gentiles and that from that mixing a “new” Nobel class will emerge from that mixture. This is interesting to me that even in ancient culture; someone from the gentile class could receive by special promotion the title of privilege or noble class and that such were, as it seems, much more noble than those “born” to privilege. Note that Jesus, as the Christ (and the symbol of King David), arose from a mixture of Ruth (a gentile) with Boaz of the house of Israel. To me there are a lot of interesting pieces of doctrine we can investigate in scripture between the house of Israel and the gentiles. But I believe it is important to identify that in our era we are to be mixed as nobles and gentiles then advanced to a singular Noble class by our service and dedication to our heavenly King, his kingdom and all the citizens or subjects of his kingdom.

The third son is Ham and he represents what is referred to in scriptures as the” Infidels”. In essence these are the “outcast” or exiled from the kingdom. They are the covenant breakers that have lost their rights of citizenship. Mostly we understand these as the devil and those that follow him. But such lines get a little blurred when we come to understand that through the fall we all become of this class – it is the essence of the fall. Often the gentile class is left out (likely because of the mixing in the last days) and the concept of Heaven or Hell places everyone in either the heaven or hell class. We LDS should have a better understanding than most Christians of the distinctions. But I would like to draw attention the a particular scripture in 1Timothy 5:8. I draw attention to this particular scripture here because, for the most part, we like to think of the distinction between the “Nobel and Great” and the “Infidels” as the difference between the “believers” and “non-believers”. But what I understand that those of the “Nobel and Great” class (or those given the Priesthood) that do not care properly for those that are also of the same class as well as those that are “gentiles” – even though they are “noble believers” are worse than the infidel class. Could this be what we call the “sons of perdition”?

Anyway – I have not tried to be conclusive in my definitions. Mostly because I have many questions that I do not feel have suitable answers as of yet. But I have attempted to give a bit of a thumb-nail sketch of my understanding. And if anyone is interested – I would be most willing to explorer this together in discussion and or debate in hopes – at least for me – to perhaps discover more or at least better clarify some things.

The Traveler

Edited July 5, 2012 by Traveler

[Vort]

When I was growing up, I learned that among many in the Church, the sons of Shem, Japheth, and Ham were respectively identified as the three traditional races -- Caucasians, Mongolians, and Negroids. As those racial categorizations are outdated and pretty much unused today, I assume this identification has also fallen by the wayside. I have never heard the three traditional "races" identified with the three premortal divisions, however. This doesn't even seem reasonable to the degree that the above categorization might have seemed reasonable; the third part was lost eternally and never gained the gift of mortal life.