Higgs Boson

[bds4206]

So, anyone have a take on the Higgs Boson "god particle" that was discovered? I am not a physicist, however I don't see what the big deal is in relation to religion. I don't think this necessarily changes anything....what does everyone else think?

[bds4206]

I ask because of course as soon as this came out, so did everyone that is dying to disprove religion as a whole lol...I think it's kinda funny in a way.

[annewandering]

lol well we know 'science' trumps religion every time. Right?

I like calling it a "God Particle". I am quite sure God made good use of it. :)

[applepansy]

hmmm, what I read this morning called the "god particle" a theory.

[HiJolly]

Many scientific theories are iron-clad truth. We just call it a theory because it would be so presumptuously egotistical to call it 'fact'. And we know it could change at any moment, since in science there is *never* the last word on anything, only the latest word.

I think if we can find a scientific way to explain how matter has mass, this would be simply fantastic!

HiJolly

[applepansy]

Many scientific theories are iron-clad truth. We just call it a theory because it would be so presumptuously egotistical to call it 'fact'. And we know it could change at any moment, since in science there is *never* the last word on anything, only the latest word.

I think if we can find a scientific way to explain how matter has mass, this would be simply fantastic!

HiJolly

theory

iron-clad truth

*since in science*never* the last word on anything*

which is it?

Edit:

Edited July 5, 2012 by applepansy

[Traveler]

So, anyone have a take on the Higgs Boson "god particle" that was discovered? I am not a physicist, however I don't see what the big deal is in relation to religion. I don't think this necessarily changes anything....what does everyone else think?

Okay – first off we are talking about a boson particle. When it comes to particles boson particles are quite difficult for anyone to rape their brain around. From the offset of quantum physics the particle concept was given the title of “standard” model. Once the basic elements of an atom (protons, electrons and neutrons) were broken down; Theoretical physics created the standard model in an attempt to make sense of quantum weirdness.

One of the reasons the Higgs boson is called the G-d particle is because it was calculated theoretically long before we could find any trace of its actual existence. Finding evidence of the Higgs particle proves symmetry and order to the universe that at the quantum level, has, at least until now, appeared very much to be random and chaotic. It has long been argued that order and symmetry in the universe is related to intelligence having input to creation.

Many scientists would rather believe we are the result of a random quantum anomaly than a divinely engineered possibility. As an engineer and scientist – I believe we should have much more faith in engineering. Those that follow this random line of thinking have been grabbing at random straws for quite some time – despite the fact that proving randomness, for such hard core scientists, has been as or more difficult than scientifically proving G-d. This argument is very likely to continue.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

One of the problems has been the increasing lack of realistic scientific input from religious thinkers. Quite frankly most religious concepts have been left in the dust of history as many religious thinkers have yet to deal with evolution – and that is becoming ancient history. I would compare it so some backwater hick trying to tell a jet fighter pilot that if G-d meant for man to fly he would have given him wings. It is like where have you been the last 100 years dude? And the backwater dude answers, ”Yah, I saw in the news the other day where another one of them flying things crashed killing a bucket load of people – I ain’t believing in no flying.”

The Traveler

[HiJolly]

theory

iron-clad truth

*since in science*never* the last word on anything*

which is it?

That's what makes if fun, applepansy, figuring out what it is this time!

HiJolly

[Jamie123]

I found this video, which I think explains the Higgs Boson very well:

[NeuroTypical]

I got all excited when hearing about Gallileo. And Copernicus. Heck, I even got excited when the hero in Battlefield Earth was explaining how triangles work to the other prisoners.

So yeah, I'm excited here too. Even though I just can't manage to wrap my brain around what it actually is, no matter how brilliantly simple it's put, I'm excited.

[Saldrin]

as my nephew puts it,"Exciting day in the world of physics! The Higgs Boson may or may not exist probably"

[Backroads]

I agree. Excitement in science. No complaint there. I like new maybe-discoveries.

[Traveler]

The Higgs Boson: A boson brings to particle physics all the attributes that confuse everyone. This is because unlike fermions (that occupy quantum states exclusively) many bosons can occupy the same quantum state. For example: fermions are believed to give rigidly to matter and cannot occupy or share the same space time with other fermions – but bosons can. It has also been demonstrated that a single boson can be in more than one space time. Think of a standing wave as you shake a rope that wiggles in two places at once but not in the space between the two wiggles. In general what we understand of matter is defined by the fermions that construct the elements of matter and what we understand of energy and the transmission of energy is constructed of bosons. The simple bosons previously known are associated with the big and little atomic forces. Photons are the particles that make up electromagnetic light and are complex bosons (meaning constructed of more than one boson). But it all gets funnier because fermions have ½ + integer quantum spin and bosons have integer quantum spin. So if we are able to add two quantum fermions we will get an integer spin and a complex boson. The missing piece to this puzzle is, most likely, the complex boson particles that define gravity. But this is where Einstein’s theory of relativity and quantum physics clash big time and without any resolution.

One last thing about the Higgs boson that is kind of interesting – it is its own anti-particle. That means that if there is an anti-universe to our universe of anti-matter the Higgs bosons in that universe will be identical to the Higgs bosons of our universe and the two Higgs bosons will not blow (cancel) each other up. I think Hawkins missed this when he postulated that the creation of the universe from nothing can be explained without G-d. Anyway – the Higgs boson or “G-d particle” in reality has nothing more to do with G-d than any other quantum particle.

The Traveler

[ZionsRodeVos]

I've read your various threads today and find them interesting. I'm wondering, do you actually use this knowledge for your work? If yes, how?

I'm sure my knowledge of such things is very limited and what little I did learn was long ago and so I may have forgotten a lot. But, wasn't there a time when scientists thought that the atom was the smallest thing in the universe and used to build all others? How does the atom relate to these Higgs Boson's and fermion's?

[Traveler]

I've read your various threads today and find them interesting. I'm wondering, do you actually use this knowledge for your work? If yes, how?

I'm sure my knowledge of such things is very limited and what little I did learn was long ago and so I may have forgotten a lot. But, wasn't there a time when scientists thought that the atom was the smallest thing in the universe and used to build all others? How does the atom relate to these Higgs Boson's and fermion's?

I am an engineer and scientist currently working in industry for automation robotics and artificial intelligence - quantum physics is a hobby and personal interest.

Thanks for your question – Sorry I have been very busy but I will try to reward your interest. The Bohr atom, atomic theory has defined the atom for some time. The word atom comes from the ancient Greek and means something like the smallest particle – but we know atoms are not the smallest particle because atoms are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. However since the onset of the atomic age we have split the atom and discovered that even protons, neutrons and electrons can also be broken down into smaller pieces of things. Those things are defined in quantum theory or quantum particles.

Quantum theory defines all things that exist as a derivative (made up) of quantum particles. There are in essence two kinds of quantum particles – bosons and fermions. What distinguishes specific particles from each other is what is called quantum states. The word quantum is value so in essence a quantum state is by definition as a on or off condition. The official word for this on/off state is orthogonal. All this allows us to use mathematics and mathematic principles to model our particles – and interesting it works really well – so far.

So what distinguishes one quantum particle from another is the quantum states of the particle. This means that everything that exists can be defined by fermions, bosons and their quantum states and by combining these quantum particles into complex particles to make protons, neutrons, electrons, photons and everything else. As I said in a previous posts – bosons are really weird particles and in general we think of bosons as the particles that carry energy and fermions as the particles that cause rigidity in matter.

If the particle discovered is indeed a Higgs Boson then there are a lot of “new” ideas that begin to look very important. For example – the Higgs field. The Higgs field really puts science (and many religious thinkers) on their heads. This is because we just finished proving (or thought we did) that fields do not really exist. Fields are an update of an old theory that space and time cannot be empty but must be occupied by something – therefore even nothing becomes something and this is very problematic for the concept of creation from “nothing” (because even nothing has to be something – the proof of this is most interesting and involves quantum states, quantum anomalies and even in essence G-d thinking or his presents or power. The old scientific idea for a field was called “Ether”. The new name will be “Higgs Field”. But what is a Higgs Field, the new Ether or the presents of G-d or whatever we want to define as that force that is in everything and everywhere?

One thought being put forward is Dark Energy. That would be really exciting – now we would have one more of the several names for something that we currently cannot define. There are two theories that fit the quantum model. One is what is called super symmetry. If this model best represents reality then there are an additional 4 bosons yet to be discovered related directly to the Higgs Boson.

The second possibility is one I really like personally. It is theorizes that the Higgs field is in essence a coupling of our universe with another dimension. These are currently the only two models that will fit the standard quantum model. If this is the case – we are very close to explaining just about everything. Why? Because Dark Energy would actually be stuff from another dimension slipping into our universe causing our universe to expand. We know that the universe is expanding and one of the problems we thought concerning an expanding universe is that space time is stretching. But if it is stretching the energy should be being stored in space time like a spring being stretched. And that would cause the expansion to slow down. So the big question of how the universe is expanding without stretching is now answered. I like this because it is a possible window to “spirit” matter.

Currently the big rift science has with religion is that we cannot sense and measure spiritual things. We cannot sense a spirit leaving at death. But if it is something of another dimension (even if it is not of another dimension but spirit that is related to dark energy) it would be in essence the characteristics of a “dark energy” kind of thing – or at least what we call dark energy. Thus we would have access to the means to bring together truth in science with truth in religion. Many in science think we are about to in essence, pull back the curtain to the Wizard of Oz and see with understanding that divine operation of things is not really mystic, magic nor supernatural – but something we are capable of understanding – if we care to invest and engage with our minds and hearts.

The Traveler

[NightSG]

When it comes to particles boson particles are quite difficult for anyone to rape their brain around.

Could you please list all other things it would be difficult to rape one's brain around, so that I can make a hat of several of them and get people to stop trying to rape my brain?

[Traveler]

Could you please list all other things it would be difficult to rape one's brain around, so that I can make a hat of several of them and get people to stop trying to rape my brain?

I made two such references in previous posts - one was that two bosons can occupy the same space time as well as that one boson can occupy two separate places of space time. Practical examples are (1) lasers and (2) the so-called tunneling (as well as what is call evaporation) of electrons. Lasers are in essence examples of many things (photons - a complex boson) occupying the same, not just the same space time but other quantum states as well. The tunneling phenomenon in essence allows for the flow of electrical current (electrons - a complex boson) in stable solids that are conductors - but is most prevalent in the condition known as "super conductors". A super conductor is a condition that allows for the flow of electrons without resistance.

There are some scientist that believe time travel or folding space time (instant travel) is possible based on quantum states of complex bosons. It is not impossible but understand but like visualizing dimensions beyond 3 or 4 - say 11 is most difficult to rap one's mind around. At least it is for me! the logic is not at all intuitive.

The Traveler

Edited July 29, 2012 by Traveler

[HoosierGuy]

The Europeans have spent big money on that collider. I think this is them simply trying to justify it. They add the name "god" to make it sound important and for Europeans/world to say "Oh, that collider was worth all that money!"

[ZionsRodeVos]

...

The second possibility is one I really like personally. It is theorizes that the Higgs field is in essence a coupling of our universe with another dimension. These are currently the only two models that will fit the standard quantum model. If this is the case – we are very close to explaining just about everything. Why? Because Dark Energy would actually be stuff from another dimension slipping into our universe causing our universe to expand. We know that the universe is expanding and one of the problems we thought concerning an expanding universe is that space time is stretching. But if it is stretching the energy should be being stored in space time like a spring being stretched. And that would cause the expansion to slow down. So the big question of how the universe is expanding without stretching is now answered. I like this because it is a possible window to “spirit” matter.

Currently the big rift science has with religion is that we cannot sense and measure spiritual things. We cannot sense a spirit leaving at death. But if it is something of another dimension (even if it is not of another dimension but spirit that is related to dark energy) it would be in essence the characteristics of a “dark energy” kind of thing – or at least what we call dark energy. Thus we would have access to the means to bring together truth in science with truth in religion. Many in science think we are about to in essence, pull back the curtain to the Wizard of Oz and see with understanding that divine operation of things is not really mystic, magic nor supernatural – but something we are capable of understanding – if we care to invest and engage with our minds and hearts.

The Traveler

Thanks! And don't worry about being slow to respond. I'm patient.

Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to detect and/or track spirits or spirit matter. It could lead to being able to follow where a spirit goes after a person dies. Along with this thought came the following thought. Such a device could garner an action similar to when people were working on the tower of babel because there could be those who would think if you can track a spirit then you could find a way to go to heaven.

Very interesting. Have you been able to see any of these boson's or the effects of them in a lab? Or has your hobby of studying quantum physics been limited to reading what others have learned on the subject?

Some of what you say could explain how angels travel between earth and heaven. A travel method that would be very nice to have in my opinion, much more efficient than airplanes.

[NightSG]

Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to detect and/or track spirits or spirit matter. It could lead to being able to follow where a spirit goes after a person dies. Along with this thought came the following thought. Such a device could garner an action similar to when people were working on the tower of babel because there could be those who would think if you can track a spirit then you could find a way to go to heaven.

I would tend to think that just finding a way that could theoretically work but that can't be practically tested with any technology that we have time left here to come up with wouldn't actually be that much of a problem. After all, the issue with the Tower of Babel wasn't that they were going to get there, but the hubris that led them to believe they could...at least by such a simple method.

IMO, the Lord wants us to keep looking for answers to everything. Curiosity is just too much a part of us to believe that it wasn't put there for a reason. Physics as we know it encompasses a massive amount of information, and there's still plenty of room to have left Himself lots of "back doors" that we don't understand yet, to do things entirely within that system. He would certainly still be able to act outside of the system as well, but doing things within it would leave certain traces for us to find, making us even more curious.

Pretty much every scientific advancement for a long time was just explaining how some sort of "magic" works. Just because we now know how He makes the sun shine and birds fly doesn't mean we've run out of secrets that He's willing to let us in on.

Realistically, even if someone did find a human-traversible route to the afterlife, He's still got a lot of ways available to stop them, or simply negate their efforts.

[Traveler]

Thanks! And don't worry about being slow to respond. I'm patient.

Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to detect and/or track spirits or spirit matter. It could lead to being able to follow where a spirit goes after a person dies. Along with this thought came the following thought. Such a device could garner an action similar to when people were working on the tower of babel because there could be those who would think if you can track a spirit then you could find a way to go to heaven.

Very interesting. Have you been able to see any of these boson's or the effects of them in a lab? Or has your hobby of studying quantum physics been limited to reading what others have learned on the subject?

Some of what you say could explain how angels travel between earth and heaven. A travel method that would be very nice to have in my opinion, much more efficient than airplanes.

That there is a interface between that which is spiritual and that which is physical? Do we not know that such a thing exists?

I do not think such knowledge would be similar to the days of the tower of Babel but rather more like the 1,000 years that Christ will reign as king. And if such a thing is possible? What knowledge would be revealed and lead to such understanding during the last days in preparation?

You ask about bosons. you do not have to be in some lab to observe light, lasers and electrons - all of which are complex bosons. I find it interesting that G-d and his glory is compared to and spoken of as light - which is a type of boson.

The Higgs boson infers the existence of a "force" that penetrates every bit of space time and controls and moves all things in our universe. That holds our universe together and caused the formation of atoms, molecules planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies and even super-clusters of galaxies -- without which our universe could not exist as it is. It redefines even our very understanding of nothing, of singularity and empty space time. And 12 years ago there was nothing known to to prove such possibility was rational. But most in the "religious" community is not even interested. Who would of thought that?

The Traveler

Edited July 30, 2012 by Traveler

[ZionsRodeVos]

I guess I should have explained myself better. I meant that if it becomes possible to track spirits that someone would decide to try to get to heaven that way and anyone trying would be stopped by God.

I do believe that God has no problem with us learning all about the universe and how everything works and for us to observe things, its when we go to far and try and do something He feels we should not that He will step in and stop it, such as in the tower of babel.

I agree this kind of knowledge is likely to be what we'll be using when Christ comes again.

If a lot of this stuff has come up in the last 12 years that explains why I haven't heard of it. Up until recently, I tended to focus on a few things, and one of those was learning all I could about SQL Servers since I work with them and so I didn't keep up too much on other subjects and never really was very interested in sciences. Now that seems to be changing for me, perhaps a bit too late, but in the past few years I've been expanding my horizons to all sorts of things, especially the past year and have added a number of new hobbies and pass times to my once more limited set of activities.

[Traveler]

Interesting. It is my belief that anyone that wants to go to heaven will be welcome there – just like church. Everyone is welcome to come to church. The problem is getting people to want to go to church and be involved. I understand that some people go to church that really do not enjoy and love doing so. Such that if they have an excuse or are on vacation they will skip. For some reason, I guess, such think they will get paid some reward some day for doing things they really do not enjoy – how sad – very sad is that? I am quite sure that if such a person found a way to heaven and somehow got themselves in – that they would be happy to find the quickest way out they could and would be most glad and excited to leave. Some think when they get to heaven others will serve them??? How backwards is that? The society of heaven, in my mind, will be very service oriented. And not to just themselves! The greatest in heaven will be the servant and if the Celestial Kingdom is the greatest that will be the servant quarters. Those that do not like service will not last long there – especially when eternal vacation resorts in exotic places are available for little or no effort. For many people that is the “heaven” they desire and would die for!

It seems logical and reasonable that G-d has every intension that we learn all things. I do not believe for a second that he has any desire to limit what we can learn. But I believe it is the intension of the carnal man to seek to have more learning and understanding than others. I believe it is the influence of evil for some to think that they should have more knowledge and power than others. Thereby they wish to force other to be ignorant and do their bidding. I believe it is the intent of G-d that we become free through learning principles of righteousness, wisdom and compassion. The first principle of such righteousness is personal discipline and willingness to sacrifice the desires of self to the service of others. This first principle is not rocket science and is so simple to understand any one can – without a lot of study. Therefore the purpose of knowledge and study is not so much to better one’s self as it is to serve others more effectively.

Now to the tower of Babel – Josephus in his antiquities of the Jews brings up a couple of very interesting points. First was his purpose in writing what and when he did. He claimed that there was a pseudo-intellectual and concentrated effort to change basic notions imbedded in sacred scripture. One such example he gave concerned the tower of Babel which he claimed specifically was not constructed to get to heaven (which anyone with any reasonable intelligence would realize a tower had no such chance) but rather to create a place of refuge where those that desired to reject G-d in favor of their own devices would have a place they could go if G-d should decide to again send a flood. Quite frankly that make much more sense to me than what most try to teach from the epoch of the tower of Babel.

Now if I could advise you (ZionsRodeVos) I would suggest you choose a hobby of service for others that you enjoy. I wish you well in such endeavors.

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

So, anyone have a take on the Higgs Boson "god particle" that was discovered? I am not a physicist, however I don't see what the big deal is in relation to religion. I don't think this necessarily changes anything....what does everyone else think?

We'll end up finding that there is some more even tinier particle which happens to be what mass really ties into.