"Deep doctrine": Understanding the basics or chasing the mysteries?

[Vort]

Does the often-used (in Mormondom) term "deep doctrine" mean to plunge into the so-called "mysteries", or does it mean to gain a very firm understanding of the basic, foundational tenets of our religion? Or something else?

1. What does it mean in everyday parlance, when people in your gospel doctrine class use it?

2. What does it really mean, or in other words, what should it mean?

[applepansy]

1. In our Gospel Doctrine it means, not the mysteries of things we don't understand, but delving deeply into what has been revealed. More than a firm foundation of the basics, but they are included.

2. I think it should be that we get the doctrine deep into our hearts and souls so that when this world gets really rough we won't waiver.

[Windseeker]

"Deep Doctrine" to me means it has no bearing on my happiness in this life or the next.

Those whom I've encountered who enjoy the plunge seem to struggle incorporating the basic doctrines in their life such as "Do unto others" and "Love one another" and would benefit greatly by revisiting primary.

[slamjet]

I understand "deep doctrine" to mean getting into the nuances. Such as the meetinghouse is doctrine and the temple is deep doctrine.

[Traveler]

The "deepest" doctrine I have encountered is the "Plan of Salvation" - In general it is my impression that those that think they have a good grasp and understanding this rich and complex doctrine - well I think they most likely spend their time splashing around in the shallow kiddy end of the pool.

The Traveler

[JosephP]

To me, deep doctrine are the things we aren't certain of, those that are suggested but not defined in scripture. Things like the role of our spirit children, the idea of a Heavenly Mother, the famous "as God is man may..." concept, etc.

I don't concern myself with knowing all the various ideas about each deep doctrine. I'm content with an overview to form a personal opinion about it, but understanding its only my opinion.

[searching_questioner]

I am convinced that the more doctrine we understand, whether deep or shallow, the better we will come to know and understand God, the source of all doctrine. Every aspect of every doctrine is a result of either a law that God had to obey, or of God's personal choice. By studying His choices, as evidenced through various doctrines, it should be possible to gain some sort of insight into God's character and personality. This reason is sufficient justification to study all doctrine, regardless of its depth. A study of doctrine is simply one aspect of a study of the "doctrine-maker."

[skalenfehl]

11 And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways.

23 But unto him that keepeth my commandments I will give the mysteries of my kingdom, and the same shall be in him a well of living water, springing up unto everlasting life.

61 If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.

65 Behold, thou shalt observe all these things, and great shall be thy reward; for unto you (elders of the church) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but unto the world it is not given to know them.

7 Seek not for riches but for wisdom; and, behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.

It is GIVEN to us to know the mysteries if we SEEK. If we do not SEEK, we remain in darkness and this is where the adversary is more than happy to keep us and to fool us into thinking that we do NOT need to know the mysteries, which we have been admonished to seek. This is the entire purpose of the Book of Mormon, which contains a very specific road map. It can be summarized in the following verse, a promise given to each man, woman and child:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am

Lehi did it, Nephi, Jacob, Moriancumr and countless others and it is why they were chosen to testify--because they CHOSE to seek the mysteries and to intercede for and in behalf of others, whether fellow citizens, friends, family or loved ones.

Do not confuse these types of mysteries with "space doctrine" such as the location of Kolob and 'useless' information.

[mikbone]

Further light and knowledge is out there. You gotta seek it if you want it. Truth is Truth. Knowing calculus will improve your algebra and simple addition. no doubt.

That being said...

"The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them, we do not keep our own secrets but reveal our difficulties to the world even to our enemies then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? Joseph says I can keep a secret till doomsday." - Joseph Smith, Jr. Sermon delivered at Smith Homestead on Sunday December 19, 1841

[Blackmarch]

Does the often-used (in Mormondom) term "deep doctrine" mean to plunge into the so-called "mysteries", or does it mean to gain a very firm understanding of the basic, foundational tenets of our religion? Or something else?

1. What does it mean in everyday parlance, when people in your gospel doctrine class use it?

2. What does it really mean, or in other words, what should it mean?

IMO

1) generally it means all the weird fringe stuff

2) it should mean a strong faith of what we have in the scriptures. or it can mean seeing something new from something we have had all along.

[JudoMinja]

First off- Vort, your new avatar threw me off. I didn't look at the name, and this looked like something from a newer member of the boards who joined while I was away. Then I saw blackmarch's quote "Originally posted by Vort" and I had to do a double-take. That's what I get for taking a break from the boards, lol.

Now for your question:

1. I think that most generally use the term "deep doctrine" to identify things that may or may not actually be doctrine- The teachings and speculations of past prophets and leaders of the church. These can tie into the core of our doctrine, or pull away from it, depending on how study is approached.

2. "Deep doctrine" should mean delving into the scriptures themselves to understand the workings of the Plan of Salvation, repentance and forgiveness, salvation vs. exhaltation, agency, faith, etc. Instead of having a surface understanding of these basics, someone who enjoys looking into the deep doctrine would be someone who will be desirous to "feast upon the word" and use every study tool available to them to gain deeper and more insightful knowledge and understanding of these simple yet profound concepts.

[Vort]

First off- Vort, your new avatar threw me off. I didn't look at the name, and this looked like something from a newer member of the boards who joined while I was away. Then I saw blackmarch's quote "Originally posted by Vort" and I had to do a double-take. That's what I get for taking a break from the boards, lol.

:) Welcome back. I'm just the shy, retiring type, you know.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Does the often-used (in Mormondom) term "deep doctrine" mean to plunge into the so-called "mysteries", or does it mean to gain a very firm understanding of the basic, foundational tenets of our religion? Or something else?

1. What does it mean in everyday parlance, when people in your gospel doctrine class use it?

2. What does it really mean, or in other words, what should it mean?

I think it depends on with whom one is speaking, is it with members only or are their investigators or even non-members?

Dale Valentine, talking about investigators impressions of their first time going to an LDS service instructed; " Share unique truths. When investigators come to church for the first time, they are excited to learn about the Church. Learning that the Church has an unpaid ministry or that living oracles guide the members is often surprising to investigators. “But keep the information simple,” the lawyer observed. “Intricate explanations and deep doctrine only confuse investigators.”

I think I have done that myself and sometimes struggle in keeping lessons simple.

So, I guess one answer to the question would be, "deep doctrine" are topics that have the potential to confuse investigators.

[Anddenex]

Does the often-used (in Mormondom) term "deep doctrine" mean to plunge into the so-called "mysteries", or does it mean to gain a very firm understanding of the basic, foundational tenets of our religion? Or something else?

1. What does it mean in everyday parlance, when people in your gospel doctrine class use it?

2. What does it really mean, or in other words, what should it mean?

I personally feel it should mean to plunge into the basic, foundational tenets of our religion, however in answer to number one, I feel people to believe it means mysteries that have not yet been revealed, or may not be revealed.

I feel we, as a collective church, have made "deep doctrine" to much a mystery. I remember when it finally dawned on me, that deep doctrine is actually basic truths with the gospel, which are learned line upon line, precept upon precept, but only few people actually study and listen to the spirit to reach it.

Joseph Smith, taught deep doctrine to a world famished from apostacy, where in reality he simply taught basics truths of the gospel, which were given to him by faith.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Does the often-used (in Mormondom) term "deep doctrine" mean to plunge into the so-called "mysteries", or does it mean to gain a very firm understanding of the basic, foundational tenets of our religion?

In my opinion (which I consider quite valuable, your mileage may vary ), the Atonement IS the deep doctrine. It is a topic that is we don't understand as well as we should (myself included, but hey, I'm working on it).

I also think we could include other "basics" that we THINK we understand, but really do not appreciate yet...pride is a big one, followed by faith and charity.

The important thing I think is for each individual to ask Father what He wants them to learn. Years ago (when I was in a better space), I was inspired by a church lesson to ask in prayer, "What lack I yet?" The answer surprised me. I worked on that answer and later asked again. Once again the answer surprised me.

The answer to those two questions was life-changing, I mean literally the conversion that Elder Bednar talked about yesterday (I loved that talk so much). That is what has kept me holding to the Iron Rod while the jaws of Hell have gaped after me.

Seriously, if you want to learn life-changing "deep-doctrine", just get on your knees and ask the Lord, "what lack I yet?" Then no matter how simple the answer may be...do it.

[Windseeker]

I think it's counterproductive and even dangerous to label the Atonement or Plan of Salvation as Deep Doctrine. These are very basic teachings that we teach in Primary and to our investigators.

I like what the Apostles say about this. Elder Uchtdorf in particular seems to speak on this often.

We human beings have a strange tendency to complicate simple things. We set up rules, laws, bylaws, processes, and subprocesses. Eventually, we pile up load after load until we end up under a huge weight of expectations that are so complicated it is difficult to keep track of them, let alone meet them.

This is one of the reasons Paul said, “The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life” (2 Corinthians 3:6).

Too often, we complicate the beauty and simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ with endless lists of meticulous expectations. However, when we focus on the “why” of the gospel, much of the confusion fades away. Why are we here? Why are we asked to obey the commandments? Why is the Atonement of Jesus Christ of such value to us?

The proper “why” questions will lead us to the proper “who,” “what,” “when,” “where,” and “how” decisions.

Acting on the Truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

DIETER F. UCHTDORF

There is a beauty and clarity that comes from simplicity that we sometimes do not appreciate in our thirst for intricate solutions.

Leonardo da Vinci is quoted as saying that “simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” When we look at the foundational principles of the plan of happiness, the plan of salvation, we can recognize and appreciate in its plainness and simplicity the elegance and beauty of our Heavenly Father’s wisdom. Then, turning our ways to His ways is the beginning of our wisdom.

Of Things That Matter Most

DIETER F. UCHTDORF

One of the surest ways to avoid even getting near false doctrine is to choose to be simple in our teaching. Safety is gained by that simplicity, and little is lost. We know that because the Savior has told us to teach the most important doctrine to little children.

Teaching True Doctrine

Henry B. Eyring

[Vort]

I think it's counterproductive and even dangerous to label the Atonement or Plan of Salvation as Deep Doctrine. These are very basic teachings that we teach in Primary and to our investigators.

It's counterproductive only if you think "deep doctrine" means "plumbing the mysteries". I think LiterateParakeet and others are suggesting that the truly deep, profound, amazing things of the kingdom do not involve the heavenly Mother's name, the identity and mortal experiences of the Holy Ghost, or whether the Ten Tribes live in a cavern at the north pole. The real "deep doctrine" is faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost -- the plan of salvation, just as we teach to our Primary children and keep rehearsing in our classes until we're old and gray. (I happen to agree with this.)

[Windseeker]

Then I suppose it comes down to the definition of 'Deep' one is thinking of.

To me and Merriam-Webster, 'Deep' means mysterious, obscure, difficult to penetrate or comprehend.

To others and Merriam-Webster, 'Deep' means characterized by profundity of feeling or quality

I can most certainly agree that the Atonement is eternally profound but I wouldnt' say it's obscure or too difficult to comprehend. I would say that applying the Atonement to our lives requires 'deep' understanding but I still would not define it as Deep Doctrine.

Do a search in on LDS.org for "Deep Doctrine" and it's usage only comes up in one talk and it's not spoken of positively. It's already been referenced in this thread.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Windseeker

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think it's counterproductive and even dangerous to label the Atonement or Plan of Salvation as Deep Doctrine. These are very basic teachings that we teach in Primary and to our investigators.

I like what the Apostles say about this. Elder Uchtdorf in particular seems to speak on this often.

I think our differences maybe a matter of semantics, I can't really say since I don't know your heart.

What I can tell you is a little bit more about my experience. The first time I asked Father, "What lack I yet?" The Spirit started whispering to me, "pride." Pride? Me? No way, I thought. But clearly I had a lot to learn. Overcoming pride is a lifetime pursuit for all of us.

Then I went back to my knees and said, "Father, I'll keep working on that pride thing, what else do I lack?" The Spirit whispered, "The Atonement".

I was really confused by that. As you said we teach the Atonement to Primary kids. I was a Return Missionary when I had this experience. I thought I knew all about the Atonement. But I began to search. After all I could do, read etc, I went back to prayer. That was life-changing. That is when I became converted.

Sure I had been taught about the Atonement most of my life and had taught many lessons on it myself, but I did not really understand it. Nor do I claim to understand it now, but I sure love learning about it.

You said, "I like what the Apostles say about this." Me too. I refer you to Elder Bednar's recent conference talk about the difference between having a testimony and being converted. That is what I am talking about.

[rameumptom]

There is doctrine and there is speculation. Most people speculate when they discuss the signs of the times (who is the Beast?, etc).

But deep doctrine is when one spends time studying key doctrines of the Church, such as faith, repentance, ordinances, covenants, gifts of the Spirit. These are things we can better understand without delving into areas that lead us away from Christ, rather than to Christ.

The main key for the Melchizedek Priesthood is the key to the mystery of godliness (D&C 84). That said, true mysteries are things waiting to be revealed through our continued study. Speculation does not lead us to greater revelation and understanding of God's ways.

[rameumptom]

I would say that applying the Atonement to our lives requires 'deep' understanding but I still would not define it as Deep Doctrine.

Sadly, this is what many members think of atonement, faith, etc. They really do not understand how deep one can study the atonement, and still not know everything about it. Most of us skim rocks across the surface of the ocean of God's wisdom, but never delve deep into the waters to begin truly understanding all the aspects involved in those doctrines.

For example, how many have studied the dozens of theories on how the atonement works? What is Justification? What is Sanctification? How do works and grace both bring about salvation through atonement? Why does Nibley say "work we must, but the lunch is free"? How do the atonement and the endowment tie in together? Did the atonement only happen in Gethsemane, or is it an ongoing event?

These are part of the deep doctrine of the atonement of Christ. Some parts have not yet been fully revealed to us, but we can get a better understanding by considering the various concepts on it.

[Windseeker]

I understand what your saying and I agree, but it's the use of the term we are discussing here. I like this topic, because it is important how we define things. I think more people think of "Deep" when applied to Doctrine as meaning obscure. So going back to the title of this post I believe it applies more to Chasing Mysteries then exploring and applying the simple truths of the gospel. When I have heard it "Deep Doctrine" used it's almost felt a little like chest thumping to me. But those in this forum who like the term seem to use "Deep" as you would when saying Deep Love.

I would appreciate some examples of where we are encouraged to study or share "Deep Doctrine" either from the pulpit or in any church publication. I'll even take the Friend...lol.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would appreciate some examples of where we are encouraged to study or share "Deep Doctrine" either from the pulpit or in any church publication. I'll even take the Friend...lol.

Did you see my post #13, I gave a quote that says not to share Deep doctrine when investigators are attending.

[Windseeker]

As I've already stated, the quote you posted is the only time it's ever been mentioned that can be found doing a search for "Deep Doctrine" on LDS.org. I do believe it's not refered to in a positive light as he's saying don't expound on it. I apologize for not refering to it more directly in my previous post.

I would like someone to share a quote from a past Conference Talk or a Church Manual or article in a church magazine where we are encouraged to study or share "Deep Doctrine"

[HiJolly]

I would like someone to share a quote from a past Conference Talk or a Church Manual or article in a church magazine where we are encouraged to study or share "Deep Doctrine"

Be careful what you ask for...

"On April 9, 1852, Brigham Young rose once again to address a session of general conference. He intended to preach several discourses, he said, and as the Deseret News observed the following week, "the Holy Ghost [rested] upon [him] in great power, while he revealed some of the precious things of the kingdom. One of his subjects was the "mysteries of the kingdom." If mysteries were to be taught, Young advised, they should be discussed here, for this "is the place for you to teach great mysteries to your brethren, because here are those who can correct you." After brief comments on amusements and tithing, Young proceeded to a dramatic announcement:"

HiJolly