Why shouldn't I have my name removed?

[Dark_Jedi]

I'll try to be brief, but am happy to answer questions or give more detail to those who sincerely want to help.

I have been a member of the church for 31 years, but have been inactive for the last 8 years. Prior to that I was very active. I served a mission & married in the temple. I have served in the bishopric, been YM president, and Gospel Doctrine teacher. We have 4 children, 2 attending BYU.

A chain of incidents 8 to 9 years ago caused me to have some serious doubts about some basic church teachings - doubt is not the right word, I don't think there is an English word. Essentially, I do believe in God, but I do not believe he knows and cares about all of us. Based on experiences others have had and shared, I have no doubt they believe differently than I do, but based on my own experiences I do not see God's hand in my life nor do I see that he cares about my well being or the well being of the vast majority of people. Very closely linked to this is that I don't believe that God does indeed answer parayers. Again, he might answer some people's prayers, but not mine and probably not those of most people I know, including those of my wife. And finally, also related, I don't believe in personal revelation nor that all (or even most) church leaders are called of God nor inspired by him.

Yes, name removal is a selfish thought. I really struggle with these unbeliefs, and believe I would find peace for myself were I not affiliated with the church (while hurting those I love). The church is full of wonderful people and I have no desire to hinder anyone else, including my active family members, from freely practicing their beleifs. I am not anti-Mormon, but I probably am an apostate. I would never undertake, however, to say anything negative about this or any other Christian church.

So having come to this point of considering name removal, and based on the brief explanation above, why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?

[Anddenex]

This is really hard to answer without knowing the "chain of incidents 8 to 9 years ago."

I will proceed first with some points I wonder about myself in connection with what you have stated.

First thoughts, God does know and does care about all of us, however it appears in life some people are more favored than others. I also understand, how we choose to face difficulty will interfere with our ability to recognize God's hand.

Joseph in Egypt for example. Sold as a slave by those who should have been his protectors. As a slave God favored Joseph, where other slaves were not as favored. Yet, again, without doing anything wrong, was cast into prison by the lie of another. The question, why didn't God spare him? He spent a number of years in prison, but God still found favor with him with the prison captain or guard.

Joseph eventually as you know, despite what one would call a series of unfortunate events actually lead the sons and daughters of Jacob to be saved.

We now only see with natural eyes, what God himself sees with spiritual eyes. It amazes me that despite these unfortunate events Joseph still kept the spirit, chose to keep the spirit, and was able to interpret other peoples dreams.

I would assume, Joseph prayed earnestly to be free from prison and slavery, but how many years passed before he was, and if he succumbed to discouragement, he would have been lost.

I would assume, in your life, a specific and very important prayer, probably many prayers were not answered. As a result you feel God does not specifically care for you and does not answer your prayers.

Second Thought, I would agree, I don't believe some of our Bishops and Stake Presidents, maybe even higher ups have actually been called by the spirit, but by the best intentions and knowledge of the leaders who extended the call.

I believe, if a State President sat down with a potential Bishop and asked this question, "Are you watching pornography or been involved in child molestation?" And the potential Bishop answered, "Yes", that this person would NOT have been extended a Bishops call. Yet, experience has shown that pedophiles have been called as Bishops and some Stake Presidents have been called who are deeply into pornography.

Now, the interesting thing is that when these people were called, supposedly by the spirit, which is God's will, that God knew full well and accepted this call and even authorized a pedophile to be Bishop. This however, would be incorrect, if a mortal men would not call a pedophile to a Bishop or Bishopric, then God certainly wouldn't also, yet it happens.

They do their best in the position by which they are called. This doesn't however negate the reality that others are specifically called by the spirit and that personal revelation does occur.

We at times, though, wish it occurred without much effort on our part, and at times we are dumb founded when a whole lot of effort is put into it, and we receive nothing.

It is apparent, that you have suffered something you think unbearable, which has resulted in your current stance and belief. I am sorry to hear this.

As pertaining to your last question, "Why shouldn't I have my name removed?", I have only this to offer:

D&C 14: 7.

As a brother in Christ, I hope that you overcome this discouragement and despondency, and as Alma once said, "May your soul be comforted in Christ."

Christ, he who offered one of the most profound prayers "Father may this cup pass from me...." But it wasn't and he drank.

Drink up brother, and continue to be faithful despite discouragement. It isn't easy.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Anddenex

[NeuroTypical]

I do believe in God, but I do not believe he knows and cares about all of us.

...

I do not see God's hand in my life nor do I see that he cares about my well being or the well being of the vast majority of people.

...

he might answer some people's prayers, but not mine and probably not those of most people I know, including those of my wife.

...

I don't believe in personal revelation nor that all (or even most) church leaders are called of God nor inspired by him.

Well, I usually say that the only good reason to be a mormon, is you believe God wants you to. But I suppose in your case, it seems that you might not think God is all He's cracked up to be in the first place. The deity you envision isn't really the one we believe we have. Yours is closer to what the Greeks and Romans had - distant and impersonal, consumed by selfishness. Not the benevolent Father LDS believes in.

why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?

Dunno. I also don't know what impact such revelations might have on your wife and children. You mention being inactive for 8 years - maybe not a big impact.

Have you watched the movie Signs with Mel Gibson? If not, I'd suggest it. They say it's about aliens - but it really isn't. That's all I got - sorry. Faith is one of the first principles for a reason - you seem to have lost yours.

I wish you and your family well as you move through this issue.

[slamjet]

So having come to this point of considering name removal, and based on the brief explanation above, why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?

The real question is "what do you want?"

Do you want to work at learning more about the church? Do you want to work at learning how to feel the spirit? Do you want to risk it and turn to God to let you know what is correct and not correct? Do you want proof? You're not going to get it in the way you want it because religion is inherently inward, demands leaps of faith and full of circular reasoning.

I know one thing if you decide to remove your name from the church, you will be impacted. Doesn't matter how long you've been inactive, you will be impacted.

You say know that you will remain neutral. I say that you don't know. From my experience, once you've been a member, then become a non-member, there's no such thing as neutral.

A decade ago I did what I felt like. I got excommunicated. My life has been impacted in way's I never thought it could be, and I'm not talking about my relationship with the church. I had to choose, church or no church. I chose church and it's been a long, hard slogging road to get past my own pride to qualify for re-baptism, and I'm still not there.

It really doesn't sound like you really have a grasp as to what will happen to you if you decide to take your name off the church rolls. Your life will change, your family relationships will change, your relationship with your friends will change and your relationship with yourself will change. And none of it for the better.

Advice: stay in the church and really study, pray and be active in church. You will not get any answers until you put the work into it. Until then, exercise some faith. It may not be tonight, but you will be rewarded. But ultimately, the choice is yours.

[Backroads]

I gotta say, I'm rather confused by your post. I do believe when you say you aren't anti-Mormon, but I do get the feeling you're trying to challenge us into convincing you to stay in the Church. Exactly why are you asking a bunch of strangers on the internet what you should do with your life?

If you really think having your name removed would improve your life, then do it. But you also seem concerned your life WON'T improve--all your relationships being affected and whatnot. Now, I'm a firm believer in doing what needs to be done and not staying in any religion just to please others when in fact it's all very upsetting to you.

Are you comfortable with your views on God? Or do those upset you as well?

[MarginOfError]

I'll try to be brief, but am happy to answer questions or give more detail to those who sincerely want to help.

I have been a member of the church for 31 years, but have been inactive for the last 8 years. Prior to that I was very active. I served a mission & married in the temple. I have served in the bishopric, been YM president, and Gospel Doctrine teacher. We have 4 children, 2 attending BYU.

A chain of incidents 8 to 9 years ago caused me to have some serious doubts about some basic church teachings - doubt is not the right word, I don't think there is an English word. Essentially, I do believe in God, but I do not believe he knows and cares about all of us. Based on experiences others have had and shared, I have no doubt they believe differently than I do, but based on my own experiences I do not see God's hand in my life nor do I see that he cares about my well being or the well being of the vast majority of people. Very closely linked to this is that I don't believe that God does indeed answer parayers. Again, he might answer some people's prayers, but not mine and probably not those of most people I know, including those of my wife. And finally, also related, I don't believe in personal revelation nor that all (or even most) church leaders are called of God nor inspired by him.

Yes, name removal is a selfish thought. I really struggle with these unbeliefs, and believe I would find peace for myself were I not affiliated with the church (while hurting those I love). The church is full of wonderful people and I have no desire to hinder anyone else, including my active family members, from freely practicing their beleifs. I am not anti-Mormon, but I probably am an apostate. I would never undertake, however, to say anything negative about this or any other Christian church.

So having come to this point of considering name removal, and based on the brief explanation above, why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?

My general advice to people is to do what you think is going to make you the happiest you that you can be. If you firmly believe that you'll be happier having taken your name off of the Church records, then I think that's what you should do.

But I wouldn't discount the thoughts and experiences of people like slamjet who have been through it.

The only other piece I will add is an anecdote from when my father was a Bishop. The stake at the time was helping to prepare a brother be rebaptized after his excommunication. One of the questions they asked him was how he was affected by his excommunication. He related that he wasn't at the council where the decision was made. But he distinctly remembers the day it happened. He felt different, and he didn't like it. It wasn't long before he decided that he was going to work his way back into the Church. His interpretation of his experience was that when he started to feel different, it was because the gift of the Holy Ghost had been withdrawn. That companionship he had always taken for granted was absent.

No everyone who goes through excommunication feels the same thing. It seems God speaks to us in unique ways and in unique times suited to our understanding. It could be you've put yourself in a position not to hear him, or it could be he isn't speaking because your personal growth requires you to be on your own for a time. It could be somewhere in between those two extremes. You're the only person that can know that.

So, again, I say, do what you think will make you happier, and what you think will improve your relationship with God (if that's what you want). If you later decide that leaving the Church (or staying with it) was the wrong decision, we welcome you to change your mind, too.

[C_T_R]

If you don't believe in it, and it would somehow hurt those around you, why not leave your records where they are? If you're not believing in it, would they be essentially null anyway?

If it's a big issue to you, and you truly think knowing you have no records with the church would bring you peace, then your family should accept that.

[JosephP]

I didn't read any of the other replies to your posts because I did not want to be influenced by their answers. I was excommunicated from the church in 1983, shortly after my late wife began her seven year decline into a slow, painful death. I fully understand about not seeing the hand of God in your life. I truly understand about unanswered prayer.

I can assure you of one thing however, no matter how certain you are a your feelings now, no matter how bitter you are over your unanswered prayers, you do not know, you cannot know, what the future holds for you.

Had anyone told me 29 years ago that the gospel would ever become the most important thing in my life again I would have laughed myself silly. Yet here I am, and yes, it is the most important thing in my life again.

You are free to turn your back upon God, and the church. They however will not turn their back upon you. Why you would want to close a door in such a way as just to make it so much harder to open again is beyond me.

You will do what you will do, no one can or should stop you. But perhaps a better question is, what did you hope to gain by having your name removed? Do you think that it will prevent you from being inspired to return? I assure you, not even being excommunicated, and fully guilty, could keep God's Spirit from being able to touch my cold heart. It may have taken 25 years, but still it happens. You simply do not know what the future will bring.

- Joseph P.

Edited October 10, 2012 by JosephP

[classylady]

A chain of incidents 8 to 9 years ago caused me to have some serious doubts about some basic church teachings - doubt is not the right word, I don't think there is an English word. Essentially, I do believe in God, but I do not believe he knows and cares about all of us. Based on experiences others have had and shared, I have no doubt they believe differently than I do, but based on my own experiences I do not see God's hand in my life nor do I see that he cares about my well being or the well being of the vast majority of people. Very closely linked to this is that I don't believe that God does indeed answer parayers. Again, he might answer some people's prayers, but not mine and probably not those of most people I know, including those of my wife. And finally, also related, I don't believe in personal revelation nor that all (or even most) church leaders are called of God nor inspired by him.

Dark_Jedi, I don't know what the events were that led you to have such serious doubts about some of the basic church teachings, or how you perceive God. It sounds to me that your faith has been shaken to the core.

As I read through your post, it had me contemplating my own faith, my own trials and struggles, and my belief in God. Why is it, that for some of us, no matter what the trials, we are able to maintain the faith? I don't have an answer to that.

When I think about life, and our struggles and trials, it seems that some things that happen in life can be so unfair. One thing that I do know is fair, is that every single one of us who has lived on earth is going to die. No one is exempt from that experience. Some have a short life span, just a few minutes, and others have a long life living into their 90's and 100's. I believe that no matter what our life span here on earth is, our Father in Heaven is aware of us, individually. He is our Father. We are His children. Part of the Plan is death.

Also, part of the Plan are trials and experiences. And we are tested to see how we will obey the Light of Christ that is in all of us. Father usually will not intervene in taking away one's agency, even if someone is using their agency to hurt another of His children.

I just finished reading a book about World War II. The atrocities that happened to women, children, young soldiers, etc. is at times almost unbearable to learn about. So many people died in the war. So many suffered. But, somehow my faith in a loving God is not shaken. Death is not the end. When I look at my own trials and struggles, compared to what so many of our brothers and sisters have endured throughout the earth's existence, they are so insignificant. But, that does not mean that my struggles and trials are not heartbreaking and soul wrenching to me. My pain and sorrow has left me crying to God, to take this burden from me, help me find peace, and help me find joy.

I do not know why I don't doubt that God is a loving God. That does not mean that my faith has never faltered. It has. But, I can look back where I have individually been blessed with answers to my prayers, that I cannot doubt. I have such faith in our Father. I know that He loves me. I know that He loves you. I know the Savior loves me. I know He loves you. He died for us. He died for me. He died for you. I have many sins that I need to be forgiven of. I'm so grateful for the Atonement. Someday I will see my Lord and Savior again. I hope that He will be pleased with my life. Even though I know that I have disappointed Him at times, I know that as long as I repent, He won't remain disappointed.

The last ten years, for me, has been especially difficult. I had a daughter die in a car accident, leaving behind her two month old son that I've had to help raise. My marriage of over 30 years is one of my most heart breaking trials. Poor health is taking a toll on me. Worry over finances keeps me sleepless at nights. I worry about my children's testimonies and some of their choices. But, for some reason, I am able to maintain my faith. Not only my faith in God, but my faith in the truthfulness of the Gospel. My testimony is not one that was handed to me on a plate. It did not come automatically. I had to work for it. It took a lot of prayer and sincere desire to receive an answer to my prayers. I received an answer that I cannot deny. The Spirit of the Holy Ghost testified to me of the truthfulness of the Gospel. That is what I go back to whenever I waiver. I can recall the Spirit that I felt. And when I remember that Spirit, my faith returns.

I have no real answers for you, my brother. This is a struggle that you individually are going through and will need to come to terms with. Your actions will effect your family. That I do know. But, again, this I know too, the Lord loves you. No matter what you're going through, the Lord loves you. Your Father in Heaven loves you. They know of your trials, struggles, and disappointments. I hope you can find what you're looking for. I don't think you'll find it by having your name removed from the Church.

[skippy740]

So, the baby gets dirty and you want to throw out the baby with the bathwater? (question is stated to "shock" you as you read it)

Shaken Faith Syndrome. Strengthening One's Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt: Michael R. Ash: 9781893036086: Amazon.com: Books

Doubts are a natural part of building testimony. IMO, a testimony that is never tested is a recitation.

Your testimony is being tried and will continue to be tried. You have doubts of God answering prayers and you have doubts of human leaders called to preside within the Church.

These are normal... and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. That's your job.

I think the book listed above will help.

But I'd like you to consider this point: Do you believe that by living the LDS Gospel, that you and your family would be better off or worse off?

EVEN IF God never answered prayers, but you believed in the promises of eternal families... wouldn't it be worth it to stick around for the promised blessings and the principles to lead and guide your family?

My favorite quote from Secondhand Lions:

Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

[Vort]

So having come to this point of considering name removal, and based on the brief explanation above, why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?

Because despite your doubts and loss of testimony, the Church really is exactly what it claims to be. If you remain a member, there may be a better chance that, one day, you will rekindle that spark and start to make your way back, in which case you will be happy you are still under covenant.

Of course, if you plan to break your covenants, then it is better that you no longer be bound by them. In the end, it will make little difference if you are or not, but mocking God is never a good thing.

If you feel dishonest or resentful being counted as LDS in the Church rolls, you may decide to do something about that. I see no benefit to you to removing your name from the Church rolls, but at the same time, being a member of record without actively striving to keep your covenants does you little good from either a practical or an eternal standpoint.

I think it is a serious mistake to remove your name from the Church rolls. But that is from the perspective of a believing Latter-day Saint.

[applepansy]

24 or so years ago I was working as a secretary for a small Engineering firm. They were struggling and eventually went out of business. But while I was there I met a man who was in his 60s, married in the temple, active, paid his tithing and had been a Bishop twice. My youngest was just a baby not even year old. One day he said to me "Do you really believe the Church is true?" I was surprised by the question considering what I knew of this man. I hadn't known him well, but he lived in the same stake I grew up in. I knew of him. So to have this two-time Bishop ask this question with sincerity was a shock.

I said that I did believe the Church is true and bore my testimony. Then he said to me "I can't say that but I wish I could. What I can say is that if it is true its the best thing out there and I only want the best." I was saddened by his answer. It was heartbreaking to hear that this man who should have had a strong testimony was only going through the motions because "IF ITS TRUE, its the best thing out there."

Later that year (it was November 1988) I got meningitis which profoundly changed my life and still does to this day. I'm in constant, unrelenting physical pain...every minute, every hour, every day. There has been a lot of adversity in my life and the lives of my family (parents, siblings, etc.) About 17 years ago we moved and built the house we live in. I was working and raising 4 children, one of which (the oldest) was getting into a LOT of trouble. My grandmother lived with us for almost 2 years but didn't move into the new house with us - all that came with a ton of family issues between my mother and her siblings. I wasn't able to complete my nursing degree and become a Certified Nurse Midwife. My husband's job changed a lot. My oldest son died in Nov 1999 at age 21. We lost thousands of dollars in two different business ventures. Then there is the thousands lost because of poor investment decisions and lack of communication. I could go on and on and on about the adversity that has been in my life but I won't because even having lived it all I don't believe it could all happen to one person/one family, but it all did.

The thing that finally tested me to the point I questioned if there really was a God was the physical pain. I was praying. I was fasting. I was getting the best medical care available. But I had pain and it was invisible pain and most doctors didn't even believe it was real. Some of my family didn't believe it was real. I had blessings. My name was on the prayer roll constantly...AND I still had the constant pain. I believed that Heavenly Father could and would heal me. But He didn't. My mind starting thinking "IF there is really a Heavenly Father who loves me, then why doesn't he take this pain away. I'm doing everything I'm suppose to. Reading scriptures, going to church, family home evening, teaching my children the gospel, faithful to my husband, obey the WoW, etc. So why? IF there was a loving Heavenly Father he would take this pain away. Therefore, there must not be a Heavenly Father who cares about our lives...at least not mine. There must not be a Heavenly Father who cares enough to answer MY prayers. There must not be a Heavenly Father or this wouldn't be happening to me.

When I stopped believing and became inactive is when Heavenly Father got my attention. Its too personal and just thinking about it brings tears so I won't share the experience. But Heavenly Father got my attention.

So.... why not have your name removed? I'll ask you this instead of answering: If it is all true, is there anything better? Another thing to ask yourself is this: How important to you is the happiness of your wife and family? I don't need your answers. These are questions to ask yourself.

And.... Unless you start recognizing the hand of God in your life you won't see it. For me it was recognizing the little things like the sun coming up every morning points to there is a God. Nature itself points to the fact that there is a God. As I started acknowledging the small acts of God in my life and the lives of those around me it became easier to see the hand of God in my life on a daily basis....and yes, I'm still in pain. :) But its ok and I'm thankful for the adversity because its helped me know my Savior better.

I wish you all the best in your search.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Essentially, I do believe in God, but I do not believe he knows and cares about all of us. Based on experiences others have had and shared, I have no doubt they believe differently than I do, but based on my own experiences I do not see God's hand in my life nor do I see that he cares about my well being or the well being of the vast majority of people. Very closely linked to this is that I don't believe that God does indeed answer parayers.

I am so sorry for whatever happened that caused you to feel this way. I know that was not your question, but it is what I chose to respond to .

I recently told my Bishop that I feel like God's Stepchild, for me it is because I have "blind spots" caused by childhood experiences/trauma. What the Bishop said to me was very helpful. So I am very sorry for whatever pain caused you to believe that God doesn't care about you, or answer your prayers. I wish someone had been there to help you work through that 8 or 9 years ago. If there is any part of you that would still like to believe that God knows you personally, and loves you...there is still hope. Before you make a decision about having your name removed, why not schedule a few meetings with your Bishop and give him a chance...just in case. If that doesn't help, you will not have lost anything but time.

John Bytheway, a popular youth speaker, once said, "Question your doubts." I have found that very useful. Would you be willing to give it a try and talk to your Bishop as I suggested? You've already questioned the church, now try questioning your doubts.

Good luck.

[applepansy]

I am so sorry for whatever happened that caused you to feel this way. I know that was not your question, but it is what I chose to respond to .

I recently told my Bishop that I feel like God's Stepchild, for me it is because I have "blind spots" caused by childhood experiences/trauma. What the Bishop said to me was very helpful. So I am very sorry for whatever pain caused you to believe that God doesn't care about you, or answer your prayers. I wish someone had been there to help you work through that 8 or 9 years ago. If there is any part of you that would still like to believe that God knows you personally, and loves you...there is still hope. Before you make a decision about having your name removed, why not schedule a few meetings with your Bishop and give him a chance...just in case. If that doesn't help, you will not have lost anything but time.

John Bytheway, a popular youth speaker, once said, "Question your doubts." I have found that very useful. Would you be willing to give it a try and talk to your Bishop as I suggested? You've already questioned the church, now try questioning your doubts.

Good luck.

I love John Bytheway's "Doubt your Doubts" quote. Thanks for the reminder.

[rameumptom]

Faith and hope are difficult issues. We assume that God answers prayers the way we would like them answered, simply because we hear so many others make faith statements regarding this. In reality, God often does not answer prayers immediately, nor in the way we expect.

Joseph F. Smith had a young daughter die, and he spent decades trying to discover what would happen to her in the spirit world. He found out in a major revelation (D&C 138) only two weeks before his death in 1918. His daughter died over 50 years before.

That many tragedies happen on earth is clear. God does not answer most of those tragedies in ways we would like. This is, I believe, because God has a greater purpose that is eternal, which would be frustrated if he were to step in and protect us from all these things. He has promised to heal us and wipe away our tears in the next life.

Such issues require us to sometimes just have hope and a little faith. If you see good things in the Church, then stay for the good you do see, even if you have doubts about other things. You can still make a difference in the Church by believing that God lives and will fix all things eventually. You can make a positive and good example for your kids, and be a strength to your wife, even while having some doubts.

There are many members who have doubts about this or that in regards to the gospel. But they keep believing that the Lord will enlighten us more, either in this life or the next.

So, take what belief you have and work with it. Do not focus too heavily on your doubts. They may always be there, but so can your faith be there always, too.

[Dark_Jedi]

OP here. Thank you for sharing your mostly thoughtful insghts. Thank all of you also for not assuming or inferring I have committed some awful sin. Indeed, I have not. I keep the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, don't look at porn, etc. My worst sin is probably the occasional white lie. Thinking about it, I probably live the gospel better than many who are quite active.

I will respond to those posts which I think deserve a response:

@Anddenex, you are extremely insightful. Thank you for not bringing up Job, I obviously do not have the faith of Job. I had not really considered Joseph as an example, and now will do so.

@Loudmuth Mormon, I'm not sure that I think God is selfish, but the rest of that part is correct. My point of view is much more in line with the deists. And I have seen Signs, maybe I'll have to see it again.

@Slamjet, I'm not sure what you mean with the comments about being neutral. I think I do understand there will be impacts, but those will be mostly within my family since I essentially have no friends at church (stop going to Church and you will quickly find out who your friends are). I gave my major concerns (answers to prayers, God's involvement in personal lives, revelation), but these create many other questions. For instance, without personal revelation how does one know the truth of the Joseph Smith story? This is pretty deep because revelation is so closely related to emotions - hence the doubt about revelation.

@MarginOfError, I don't know why God stopped speaking to me, nor why he set up the circumstances that lead to today. Without going into details, this was not something God simply allowed to happen, it was something that was deliberate, and while I understand God won't interfere with an individual's free agency, he could have fixed the situation after the fact - which I fully expected. The real disbelief came despite the fact I was active and doing what I was supposed to do, the heavens closed and have remain closed. I already feel different, and have for a long time.

@JosephP, thank you for giving your thoughts without the influence of the thoughts of others. I have no doubt you believe what you have said based upon your own experiences. Based upon my experiences, both God and the church will indeed turn their backs. I might expect such could happen with imperfect humans in the church, I did not expect it from God.

@Skippy740. living in an area where Mormons are a very small minority, it is easy to see the blessings people have whether they are Mormon or not. As stated above, I do live the gospel, but I don't believe I would be better off living it or not. I see people all around me who don't, some of which are better off and some who are worse off. Lastly, Second Hand Lions is one of my favorite movies and one of the few I own. All of those things in the quote are true, and most people who live that quote are not LDS (although most LDS also live it).

@Applepansy, you're insights seem most closely related to my own. My trials have been different, but the questions are the same. I am sorry that you have had to endure this pain and the other trials you have had. I wish you could share your experience of God getting your attention, because I have been inactive for 8+ years and he has failed to get my attention in this time. I would like to understand your insights into this attention. For what it's worth, I do recognize there is a God, and I am especially appreciative of the beauty of the earth - that's how I know there is a God. Whether there is or isn't a God is not the question.

@LiterateParakeet, I was expecting someone to bring up the bishop. My bishop is an interesting character. When I became inactive he was a counselor, but he has been bishop for around 4 years. We sometimes encounter one another socially (our kids are involved in similar sports and music activities and I do go to some gatherings where Mormons are present). He usually tries to avoid me, and if that's not possible (I sometimes make it hard to avoid me on purpose), he'll usually simply be very cordial and move off as quickly as possible. I have met with him once during this time, which was earlier this year. Surprisingly he initiated this contact and came to see me at my home, giving me a line about how he was concerned about me and had been inspired to come visit. I expressed to him at that time, among othet things, how a change in home teachers might be good for me, which he immediately did. Turns out the new home teacher has been worse (he's been here twice in 9 months), and despite the bishop asking if he could stop by every couple months or so, I have not seen or heard from him since. I understand the church is made up of imperfect humans, but the least God could do is inspire his servants to take some interest in my well being. I'm not looking for a sign, but God if really did care and revelation exists, wouldn't someone (bishop, stake president, home teacher, high priests group leader, ANYONE) have been inspired to take a real interest?

@rameumptom, no offense intended, but those excuses about prayer are just that. And you know as well as I that they are contrary to what is taught about prayer in scripture. That said, here's the problem with ignoring the doubts. Church is filled with people who say just the opposite. That's why I don't go, and it's why I walked out of the room during both President Eyring's and President Monson's talks at General Conference. These people don't know what they're talking about. Their experiences may well bear up what they say, but words like never and always are absolute, and their experiences are not my experiences. I cannot question anyone's testimony of any particular doctrine because I don't know what they have felt. I do know what I have felt, and I have felt a withdrawal of God and his spirit. If you (not you personally) have not, you don't know what it's like. It is very difficult to sit in church or class and listen to people talk about things they really don't know about.

[Backroads]

Dark_Jedi, I do want to thank you for something I'm noticing in your posts that, in my experiences, is pretty rare for someone disenchanted with the Church--heck, any religion for that matter: You seem to be extremely respectful of others beliefs and spiritual experiences. I've seen too many people in that stage of doubt who believe their negative spiritual experience cancels out everyone else's spiritual experiences. That doesn't seem to be you. I do hope your own spiritual journey goes well, wherever it goes.

[JudoMinja]

I've read through this thread and after reading your response to everyone felt a need to chime in. It sounds to me like your biggest struggle right now is understanding why God would withdraw-

You seem to be strong in your understanding of the gospel itself and in being patient with the weaknesses and shortcomings of your fellow men. This feeling a lack of God's hand in your life sounds like the central reason for your loss of faith, because it is the one thing that doesn't make sense with what you expect of the God you've studied and communed with all your life.

However, there are countless examples in the scripture of God withdrawing himself- or at least appearing to do so, even from the faithful. Most prominent of those examples is the Savior himself. Remember that Christ had to bear the suffering in Gethsemane alone, and when he was on the cross His Father withdrew, causing even the Lord to cry out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

It sounds like you are experiencing a similar period of withdrawal. This is your test. Your trial of your faith. Funny that such trials usually require us to exercise faith when we don't feel faithful. But I can promise you that if you will exercise faith and seek to continue living the gospel, you will be blessed, and eventually the heavens will reopen to you.

[Dark_Jedi]

You're right, Backroads. I don't discount the fact that God and Moroni may very well have appeared to Joseph Smith. Only he knows what he experienced. Likewise, I don't discount most of what President Monson says. His endless stories tell us of his experiences. They're real. But nobody else, including him, can speak for anyone else's experiences, nor can they speak from lack of the experience. I am pretty confident that Pres. Monson has not experienced a deep trial of faith nor has he likely to have experienced a significant withdrawal of the spirit. I am flabbergasted at people who judge others as not being Christian. There is no way in the world for anyone to know whether or not someone else is Christian. Some people obviously are not and will tell you so. But if someone says he or she is Christian, the only ones who know that for sure are himself or herself and God.

[NightSG]

Again, he might answer some people's prayers, but not mine and probably not those of most people I know, including those of my wife.

When I've felt this way, I found one (or more) of those people that He always seems to listen to, and asked them to pray for me.

Try it. What do you have to lose?

[applepansy]

@Applepansy, you're insights seem most closely related to my own. My trials have been different, but the questions are the same. I am sorry that you have had to endure this pain and the other trials you have had. I wish you could share your experience of God getting your attention, because I have been inactive for 8+ years and he has failed to get my attention in this time. I would like to understand your insights into this attention. For what it's worth, I do recognize there is a God, and I am especially appreciative of the beauty of the earth - that's how I know there is a God. Whether there is or isn't a God is not the question.

Thank you. I wish I could share more but some spiritual things are just to tender and personal.

@LiterateParakeet, I was expecting someone to bring up the bishop. My bishop is an interesting character. When I became inactive he was a counselor, but he has been bishop for around 4 years. We sometimes encounter one another socially (our kids are involved in similar sports and music activities and I do go to some gatherings where Mormons are present). He usually tries to avoid me, and if that's not possible (I sometimes make it hard to avoid me on purpose), he'll usually simply be very cordial and move off as quickly as possible. I have met with him once during this time, which was earlier this year. Surprisingly he initiated this contact and came to see me at my home, giving me a line about how he was concerned about me and had been inspired to come visit. I expressed to him at that time, among othet things, how a change in home teachers might be good for me, which he immediately did. Turns out the new home teacher has been worse (he's been here twice in 9 months), and despite the bishop asking if he could stop by every couple months or so, I have not seen or heard from him since. I understand the church is made up of imperfect humans, but the least God could do is inspire his servants to take some interest in my well being. I'm not looking for a sign, but God if really did care and revelation exists, wouldn't someone (bishop, stake president, home teacher, high priests group leader, ANYONE) have been inspired to take a real interest?

You are looking for a sign. Its in your question: "IF someone was being inspired by revelation from God they would be interested in my well being. Since my home teacher doesn't come by and my Bishop avoids me then revelation doesn't exist." Yet, when the Bishop did come by and said you had been in his thoughts you brushed it off. God couldn't possibly inspire my Bishop to come see me. Yet this is a man you say avoids you in social situations. Why would he come see you if God hadn't prompted him to?

I still struggle with this same issue. I'm in pain. Constant pain causes fatigue on the level of needing a nap after I shower. Yet, I'm raising my grandson who is 4yo and I don't have the luxury of napping unless he does. This past month my 26yo pregnant neighbor fell and broke her leg just above the ankle. She has a 4yo and a 2yo. The 4yo goes to preschool (teacher in our ward) with my grandson. Teacher offered to let the 2yo come to preschool too. I'm picking her kids up and driving them to and from preschool. As I have served where I could I have noticed a lot of ward members in her home. Meals, cleaning, you name it. Then I go home and I see the disaster that is suppose to be my kitchen and the disaster that is suppose to look like a laundry room and ...well, my house is an embarrassing mess. Several times over the last few weeks I've thought "Can't anyone see I need help too?" I have the energy to drive the kids..... I DO NOT have the energy to do my dishes. Driving is easy...no energy involved really. Cleaning house takes every ounce of my being to make a small dent.

Every time I've wondered if anyone was feeling inspired to help me the words that popped into my head have been "Did you tell anyone you needed help?" The answer is no I didn't. I also realized when I heard those words in my head that I was testing God again. We're not here to test God, we're here to be tested. Maybe this is your test?

Let's move on....

@rameumptom, no offense intended, but those excuses about prayer are just that. And you know as well as I that they are contrary to what is taught about prayer in scripture. That said, here's the problem with ignoring the doubts. Church is filled with people who say just the opposite. That's why I don't go, and it's why I walked out of the room during both President Eyring's and President Monson's talks at General Conference. These people don't know what they're talking about. Their experiences may well bear up what they say, but words like never and always are absolute, and their experiences are not my experiences. I cannot question anyone's testimony of any particular doctrine because I don't know what they have felt. I do know what I have felt, and I have felt a withdrawal of God and his spirit. If you (not you personally) have not, you don't know what it's like. It is very difficult to sit in church or class and listen to people talk about things they really don't know about.

Nothing Rame said was contrary to scripture about prayer. No where in scripture are there time limits set for God to respond to prayer. There is also very little about the way in which he will answer our prayers. We're told the Spirit speaks with a "still small voice". We have to listen and often I have dismissed the promptings and answers as my own mind and feelings. Yet when I started acting on those thoughts and I started recognizing and acknowledging the hand of God, the promptings become more frequent.

I appreciate JudoMinja's thoughts. She said it better than I could.

What were you praying for before you felt lost?

[NeuroTypical]

I think I do understand there will be impacts, but those will be mostly within my family

...

while I understand God won't interfere with an individual's free agency, he could have fixed the situation after the fact

...

despite the fact I was active and doing what I was supposed to do, the heavens closed and have remain closed.

...

Based upon my experiences, both God and the church will indeed turn their backs. I might expect such could happen with imperfect humans in the church, I did not expect it from God.

...

he has failed to get my attention in this time.

...

He usually tries to avoid me

...

he initiated this contact and came to see me at my home, giving me a line about how he was concerned about me and had been inspired to come visit. I expressed to him at that time, among othet things, how a change in home teachers might be good for me, which he immediately did. Turns out the new home teacher has been worse (he's been here twice in 9 months), and despite the bishop asking if he could stop by every couple months or so, I have not seen or heard from him since.

...

the least God could do is inspire his servants to take some interest in my well being.

...

if God really did care and revelation exists, wouldn't someone (bishop, stake president, home teacher, high priests group leader, ANYONE) have been inspired to take a real interest?

...

I have felt a withdrawal of God and his spirit.

I guess the only thing I have left to say, besides reiterating my suggestion to watch Signs again, is to remind you that you have a duty and responsibility to your wife and children, which does not go away in or out of the church, happy or unhappy with God. I can't really do much about your pain, but I can remind you to do the husband and father jobs you've promised to do. If you think long and hard about how best to do them, I'm guessing you'll have your answer about whether to stay in the church or not.

Second Hand Lions is one of my favorite movies and one of the few I own.

Excellent movie. If you recall, they had pretty given up on life and humans when the boy came into their lives. The realization that they had stewardship over him and a responsibility to him, kept them in the game for another two decades. They had all their crotchety old man gripes about their sorry situations and how they didn't ask for this, yet set about raising the boy. I figure they made the right decision.

At the very least, we'll know where to bury you.

[Dark_Jedi]

I've read through this thread and after reading your response to everyone felt a need to chime in. It sounds to me like your biggest struggle right now is understanding why God would withdraw-

You seem to be strong in your understanding of the gospel itself and in being patient with the weaknesses and shortcomings of your fellow men. This feeling a lack of God's hand in your life sounds like the central reason for your loss of faith, because it is the one thing that doesn't make sense with what you expect of the God you've studied and communed with all your life.

However, there are countless examples in the scripture of God withdrawing himself- or at least appearing to do so, even from the faithful. Most prominent of those examples is the Savior himself. Remember that Christ had to bear the suffering in Gethsemane alone, and when he was on the cross His Father withdrew, causing even the Lord to cry out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

It sounds like you are experiencing a similar period of withdrawal. This is your test. Your trial of your faith. Funny that such trials usually require us to exercise faith when we don't feel faithful. But I can promise you that if you will exercise faith and seek to continue living the gospel, you will be blessed, and eventually the heavens will reopen to you.

Indeed, in the beginning that was the only question, why has God withdrawn and why are my prayers and fasting not being answered? Years of the same old same old have deepened that question to a serious doubt (again, doubt isn't the right word). And I understand the experiences of Jesus inthe garden, Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, etc. Of note is the relatively short time these individuals had to endure this withdrawal, however. Jesus was a matter of hours, and he full well knew that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and what was happening HAD to happen. Jospeph Smith was a matter of a few weeks, and while we can't assume he had the same resolute belief that what was happening was supposed to happen, his struggle ended with a major scriptural revelation. It's been over 8 years.

I would like to address the trial of faith. I thought that in the beginning, also, this is just a trial. I had expectations. I knew what was happening wasn't supposed to be happening, that this was a bad thing perpetrated by evil people and happening to a good person. I whole heartedly believed (with all my heart, might, mind and strength) that God could and would fix it. I did have faith in him and in the redemptive power. As time went on, though, I began to recognize the weakness of my faith. I realized that I was failing the test. I realized I must not really have the faith I needed, and as a result I became more resolute and attempted to increase my faith. This was to no avail. What happened to me was to the benefit of the evil people (one of who was a church member) who perpetrated it - they're still benefitting, but am I stil being tried. If it were a trial, didn't the God who who knows and loves me know what the outcome would be and the effects it would have onme and my family? Didn't he see this day? Did he not know when I realized the weakness of my faith and attempted to fix it? I know his time is not my time, but it's been 8 years, and there have been profound - even eternal - effects. I came to realize that if this was a test, it proved it's point - I did lack faith, I admitted so and expressed humility, but apparently the test wasn't over. So was it really a test? The evil people still benefit from the evil they did (the member is actually dead), and will someday have the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it and end up in the celestial kingdom - but I, if I stay on my current path, will not. Wasn't I the one doing what I was supposed to do? That's how I came to the realization that God really doesn't intervene in our lives. This either was a trial of faith designed to increase my faith and understanding or it was just a worldly happening that God neither knew nor cared about. What a dilemma of thought! Admittedly, I am a fairly black and white person, but this really came down to black or white in my mind. Either the God I had loved and trusted and who I thought loved me allowed this evil for my own improvement, or God was ignorant and uncaring of the situation. I was heartbroken and chose the latter, because the first makes no sense.

[Windseeker]

Dark_Jedi, you seem like a good person and just so you know I struggle with my relationship with God as well.

But I have to disagree with JudoMinja. I don't think that you have been "patient with the weakness and shortcomings of your fellow men". When was the last time you did your Hometeaching or reached out to your "friends" in the Church? I do agree 100% that this is your trial.

I believe you can live the laws and ordinances of the gospel but not actually truly be “living” the gospel. Your offense at others weakness and subsequent judgments tell me you are missing that which makes the gospel “sweet above all”. Perhaps you have been holding the Iron Rod but not moving toward the tree of life and reaching out toward the fruit. The fruit is aquired thru living the gospel, doing as the savior did, serving, loving, forgiving and sacrificing for others.

[Dark_Jedi]

I guess the only thing I have left to say, besides reiterating my suggestion to watch Signs again, is to remind you that you have a duty and responsibility to your wife and children, which does not go away in or out of the church, happy or unhappy with God. I can't really do much about your pain, but I can remind you to do the husband and father jobs you've promised to do. If you think long and hard about how best to do them, I'm guessing you'll have your answer about whether to stay in the church or not.

Excellent movie. If you recall, they had pretty given up on life and humans when the boy came into their lives. The realization that they had stewardship over him and a responsibility to him, kept them in the game for another two decades. They had all their crotchety old man gripes about their sorry situations and how they didn't ask for this, yet set about raising the boy. I figure they made the right decision.

At the very least, we'll know where to bury you.

I was going to do the multiquote thing, but I can't figure out how

I had a heart to heart with my 18-year-old in August as he was preparing to go to BYU. I apolgozed to him for being a poor father, which brought him to tears (he never cries). Through his sobbing he told me how he respected me more than anyone else inthe world, and that of all the dads he knew, my expressed love and support for him was eons ahead of them and that there could not be a better father. I wish that I were as good a husband as I am a father, but I do work at it. Going to church has little to do with how good a father one is to his children or husband is to his wife (althogh I know it bothers her that I don't go and it hurt her when I told her I was considering name removal).

I figure they made the right decision in Second Hand Lions also (as did the mom), and while we don't ahve a lion buried in the garden, I wouldn't mind being buried there. Alas, I have an inherited cemetary plot, so they know where to bury me.