what next? discovered husband viewing pornography

[Sali]

I don't believe it. Not to justify pornography usage, of course, but to equate it with adultery is simply not a good fit. At an extreme level, it might eventually amount to the same thing, but as a general rule I do not buy the idea that pornography = adultery or that the emotional/physical/psychological/spiritual effect is identical.

You may not believe it. But I, as a woman, can totally believe it. Did you read the article? It explains why and how this happens. If my husband had this problem and is looking at pornography and using it to become aroused, he is mentally not thinking of me and is desecrating a sacred, intimate act between us. How do I know then that when we are intimate he is not using me as a vehicle for release rather than sharing a sacred, intimate experience? The trust is all gone. The betrayal is devastating. I am not sure I would be able to intimate with him. He is mentally with another woman. Sorry but I am not sure I would be able to deal with this in my marriage, especially if he was not putting in a whole lot of effort to overcome this.

[Brother_Anon]

I'm with Vort on this. I also think the reactions described come more from how we talk and demonize porn use. These reactions just aren't seen to this degree outside traditional faith communities, and I remain firm in the idea that fear of this exact reaction is why so many husbands are in hiding about this.

[Backroads]

I'm with Vort on this. I also think the reactions described come more from how we talk and demonize porn use. These reactions just aren't seen to this degree outside traditional faith communities, and I remain firm in the idea that fear of this exact reaction is why so many husbands are in hiding about this.

Yet I continue to wonder... outside traditional faith communities, porn is often preached as something absolutely normal. One is practically condemned for finding it distasteful.

Which reaction is completely natural?

[RipFoster]

I'm with Vort on this. I also think the reactions described come more from how we talk and demonize porn use. These reactions just aren't seen to this degree outside traditional faith communities, and I remain firm in the idea that fear of this exact reaction is why so many husbands are in hiding about this.[/

I think you have valid points. I compare it to the effects of the word of wisdom and growing up in the church. When I was younger, I would avoid going anywhere near coffee or tobacco, having this fear that it was a great evil poison. People who used these substances were looked down upon as wicked people, not just by me but by a majority of church members. It took me a long time to realize this wasn't so. I still choose to obey the WoW, but my perception of others choices has changed.

[Vort]

I'm with Vort on this. I also think the reactions described come more from how we talk and demonize porn use. These reactions just aren't seen to this degree outside traditional faith communities, and I remain firm in the idea that fear of this exact reaction is why so many husbands are in hiding about this.

I think you have valid points. I compare it to the effects of the word of wisdom and growing up in the church. When I was younger, I would avoid going anywhere near coffee or tobacco, having this fear that it was a great evil poison. People who used these substances were looked down upon as wicked people, not just by me but by a majority of church members. It took me a long time to realize this wasn't so. I still choose to obey the WoW, but my perception of others choices has changed.

Two points to make:

1. I never experienced the idea that the majority of Church members looked down on or thought of those who smoked or drank as wicked.

2. While I agree that there is some overreaction to the idea of pornography, please do not misunderstand me. I believe pornography to be more evil than poison. I think it destroys individuals and lives. I am not a part of the "porn-is-no-big-deal" contingent.

[Brother_Anon]

Yet I continue to wonder... outside traditional faith communities, porn is often preached as something absolutely normal. One is practically condemned for finding it distasteful.

Which reaction is completely natural?

I don't think it's normal, and yet, porn has been with us in one form or another, for as far back into the historical record as we go. With porn showing up in drawings, stories, plays, cave paintings, or any medium humans can get there hands on really.

Porn shouldn't be celebrated, at all. But it also isn't in the top 3 sins either.

[estradling75]

While I can understand how it might be a 'natural' response for women to have to porn use unless they have been desensitized to it like the rest of the world, it doesn't excuse the over reaction to it. Any more then a man's 'natural' response to porn excuses him acting on that. We all all here (both men and women) to learn to control our 'natural' responses and become more Christ-like, when we fail to do so we hurt ourselves and those we care about.

[Vort]

Porn shouldn't be celebrated, at all. But it also isn't in the top 3 sins either.

This whole idea of ranking sins seems wrong-headed to me. Murder simply is not in my top 3. Why not? Because I am unlikely ever to murder anyone. It's not something I need to worry about. Same with adultery.

As far as I know, murder is not a big problem in the Church, even though it is widely acknowledged as the "worst sin". It receives basically zero General Conference time. If there is a "worse sin" than murder, it would be denial of the Holy Ghost; yet again, we hear nothing -- NOTHING -- in General Conference about the dangers of denying the Holy Ghost.

I wonder why not? The answer is obvious. That's not a problem in the Church. I would guess that, as a general rule, even adultery is not especially common among the rank and file of Church membership.

Yet we constantly hear about the dangers of pornography. Why might that be? The answer seems obvious to me: That's what the Church membership is struggling with. Not murder or adultery or rape or child molesting (though pornography might arguably lead to all those things). In this sense, pornography might indeed be in the "top three". Maybe even the #1 concern.

[Brother_Anon]

Sin is sin, but some *are* worse than others, a concept both the church and scriptures discuss: the sin next to murder from Alma, or the necessity to confess to the bishop for adultery but not for lying.

Any sin will keep us from attaining salvation and therefore church leaders have to pick and choose what to specifically address, and with the public data we have, porn is widespread, which means they address it. My whole point has always been that it needs to be addressed, but shouldn't be treated like it's the Black Death, since that gets the fear, confusion, anger, and tears that led to this thread, and many of the responses, to begin with.

[mnn727]

Yet we constantly hear about the dangers of pornography. Why might that be? The answer seems obvious to me: That's what the Church membership is struggling with. Not murder or adultery or rape or child molesting (though pornography might arguably lead to all those things). In this sense, pornography might indeed be in the "top three". Maybe even the #1 concern.

Its been demonized so much by the Church (in GC talks) that women now think its the worst thing that could possibly happen to their marriage and men struggle to hide it -- where as in most cases its not really that big of a deal except that we make it a big deal.

Personally I think there are worse sins that Church members struggle with: gossip, haughtyness (is that a word?), not loving their neighbor as themselves.

Edited December 19, 2012 by mnn727

[Brother_Anon]

Personally I think there are worse sins that Church members struggle with: gossip, haughtyness (is that a word?), not loving their neighbor as themselves.

I couldn't agree more! Those three, plus pride and a focus on money are doing more harm to us than porn. But it's easier to demonize the porn user than deal with our obsession for fine apparel and backbiting.

[Guest]

Other people's sins always seem worse than our own, don't they?

[Vort]

Its been demonized so much by the Church (in GC talks) that women now think its the worst thing that could possibly happen to their marriage and men struggle to hide it -- where as in most cases its not really that big of a deal except that we make it a big deal.

Some women, perhaps. Not the vast majority. And your characterization that "it's not really that big of a deal" is simply false. It is a big deal, a very big deal.

Personally I think there are worse sins that Church members struggle with: gossip, haughtyness (is that a word?), not loving their neighbor as themselves.

I don't know if these are worse or not, but I do know that these are also mentioned often at General Conference. Clearly, these sins qualify as "top-of-the-list" sins, alongside pornography consumption, and are deemed much more important to preach against than murder.

[Guest]

I don't think it's normal, and yet, porn has been with us in one form or another, for as far back into the historical record as we go. With porn showing up in drawings, stories, plays, cave paintings, or any medium humans can get there hands on really.

Porn shouldn't be celebrated, at all. But it also isn't in the top 3 sins either.

Murder has been around since Cain and Abel. I don't understand your point.

[Backroads]

I think it would be better to tackle the approach to porn-in-the-family than the level of sin porn is. I think there is something of an overreaction to porn use itself (I believe there was an old thread discussing whether you would rather have your spouse look at porn or physically cheat on you) and that's fair, I believe porn use doesn't necessarily have to destroy a marriage.

But to try to change the sin value of porn itself? That doesn't strike me as the best solution.

[mnn727]

Some women, perhaps. Not the vast majority. And your characterization that "it's not really that big of a deal" is simply false. It is a big deal, a very big deal.

Only because we make it a big deal.

Had you been raised outside of the Church your reaction to this entire thread would be "You've got to be kidding!"

[Brother_Anon]

Murder has been around since Cain and Abel. I don't understand your point.

My point is that porn is nothing new and doesn't deserve the level of fear and anguish it's gotten of late. Just like no one would think of divorcing a spouse who drinks a beer every so often, that same attitude should guide the couple when porn enters the picture.

[Vort]

Only because we make it a big deal.

Had you been raised outside of the Church your reaction to this entire thread would be "You've got to be kidding!"

Perhaps. All the more reason to be grateful I was raised in the gospel, where poisonous evil is identified as such.

[Backroads]

My point is that porn is nothing new and doesn't deserve the level of fear and anguish it's gotten of late. Just like no one would think of divorcing a spouse who drinks a beer every so often, that same attitude should guide the couple when porn enters the picture.

I see your point, but I'd also like to point at what people might be fearing.

It might not be wise to divorce a spouse who has the occasional beer, but it's quite common for raging alcoholics to be divorced. Likewise, someone who is obsessed with porn, more than his/her spouse, will probably be divorced.

People fear what porn has the power to become. No, I don't think porn use should be cause for divorce right off the bat, that it should be dealt with reasonably. But if porn becomes a big problem in the marriage (for example, a person prefers porn to his/her spouse, refuses to consider spouse's feelings on the matter, etc), is it wise of us to say "it's not that big of a deal"?

EDIT:

I reread your statement. Were my husband to look at occasional porn, should I really just brush it off? Do I not have a right to approach him with how I feel? You said earlier you felt porn was still a big sin, but now you're saying it should be something we should think of.

And what does porn's history have to do with its sin level?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Backroads

[Vort]

My point is that porn is nothing new and doesn't deserve the level of fear and anguish it's gotten of late.

The leaders of Christ's Church, those who have been appointed shepherds and watchmen, disagree with your assessment. What evidence do you have that you are right and they are wrong, and that we should heed your words over theirs?

[Brother_Anon]

The leaders of Christ's Church, those who have been appointed shepherds and watchmen, disagree with your assessment. What evidence do you have that you are right and they are wrong, and that we should heed your words over theirs?

I think you're misreading what I wrote. I'm not saying that church leaders are wrong to speak out against it.

What I am saying is what you have said in other posts, that porn use does not rise to the level of adultery and should not be reacted to in the same manner. Furthermore, I think that when we treat the two as equals, in how we react to the discovery, we (as church members) end up doing more harm than good. Primarily because the messages we send to others caught in this sin is to keep their use secret out of fear of their lives being ruined. Any porn use gets treated the same, regardless of how much they might actually consume, which could be hours of porn everyday, or only snippets in shame as temptation strikes.

[Sali]

I see your point, but I'd also like to point at what people might be fearing.

It might not be wise to divorce a spouse who has the occasional beer, but it's quite common for raging alcoholics to be divorced. Likewise, someone who is obsessed with porn, more than his/her spouse, will probably be divorced.

People fear what porn has the power to become. No, I don't think porn use should be cause for divorce right off the bat, that it should be dealt with reasonably. But if porn becomes a big problem in the marriage (for example, a person prefers porn to his/her spouse, refuses to consider spouse's feelings on the matter, etc), is it wise of us to say "it's not that big of a deal"?

EDIT:

I reread your statement. Were my husband to look at occasional porn, should I really just brush it off? Do I not have a right to approach him with how I feel? You said earlier you felt porn was still a big sin, but now you're saying it should be something we should think of.

And what does porn's history have to do with its sin level?

I have to agree with what I said here. I reread my previous post and feel I worded it rather unfortunately. Do I think a person looking at porn should be a dealbreaker? No. I think Backroads hit the nail on the head. It would definitely depend upon the person's attitude toward it.

[Vort]

I think you're misreading what I wrote. I'm not saying that church leaders are wrong to speak out against it.

What I am saying is what you have said in other posts, that porn use does not rise to the level of adultery and should not be reacted to in the same manner. Furthermore, I think that when we treat the two as equals, in how we react to the discovery, we (as church members) end up doing more harm than good. Primarily because the messages we send to others caught in this sin is to keep their use secret out of fear of their lives being ruined. Any porn use gets treated the same, regardless of how much they might actually consume, which could be hours of porn everyday, or only snippets in shame as temptation strikes.

I keep thinking we are in agreement, but then you write something that sounds like, in some form or another, "pornography just is not that big a deal if we would just grow up and quit acting all Puritan". I'm all for not overreacting to pornography, but I can't accept any form of "it's not that big a deal". If I have misunderstood you, then please forgive me.

[Brother_Anon]

I keep thinking we are in agreement, but then you write something that sounds like, in some form or another, "pornography just is not that big a deal if we would just grow up and quit acting all Puritan". I'm all for not overreacting to pornography, but I can't accept any form of "it's not that big a deal". If I have misunderstood you, then please forgive me.

I'm pretty sure we're in agreement. :)

[reader6213]

Just a quick reply, from someone who's dealing with it ALL, from porn to prostitution. The porn sin is different from the other sins, because it DIRECTLY effects another person's physical/mental well being. If my husband were to have a beer at a local bar now and again, it doesn't effect how I feel about myself. It's not a good choice on his part, but it has little bearing on my mental/physical well being. I myself have had to go through 2 years of therapy to deal with what porn consumption, by my husband, has done to me and our family. I was a stable, happy, confident woman a couple years ago, I'm not that woman any more, and I don't know if I ever can be her again.