What do you think of a working man who tells his struggling stay-at-home wife the following?

[Vort]

Assume for the sake of discussion that everything he says or implies is justified. Please, no snark, just honest expressions of what you think of each of the following sincere statements and why. The husband honestly believes he is justified in each statement.

• "You should get up and get going instead of sleeping in late every day."

• "If you get organized and discipline yourself, you will get a lot more done."

• "I work hard all day long, and I don't think it's asking too much for the basic housekeeping to be kept up on when I come home."

• "I'm willing to help out, but this is your domain, and you have to be the primary impetus behind the housekeeping. I really can't do much about it."

• "When we got married, we agreed: I would make the money, and you would make the home. That was the deal. I haven't backed out of my end of the agreement, so what's going on with your end?

• "If you loved me more, you would do your duties as we agreed on when we married."

• "Do you understand how much pressure it puts me under to live in a highly disorganized household?"

• "Other people know how to keep house. Why don't you talk to them?"

• "I just can't be happy living in this manner, with things not organized like they should be."

• "Why is it MY fault we're arguing? YOU're the one who isn't keeping up her end of the bargain!"

• "When I got married, I wasn't expecting this. I assumed my wife would keep her agreements."

• "Mom never had these kinds of problems with the housekeeping."

[SpiritDragon]

This strikes too close to home for me, because I find myself in a very similar situation. I may even be guilty of saying similar things. I think it is important to withhold judgment when we are not the involved party. It is very difficult to put up with a disorganized trash hole of a home when you work hard all day and come to find your wife still in her PJ's playing facebook or watching movies and knowing that nothing has been accomplished all day at home. A guy really hopes his wife would be doing something with herself. It is not fair to expect a husband to work full-time and put himself through school and also try to keep up with the dishes and laundry and sometimes even the meal preparation. However, it also important to try to find out why the wife is struggling and not attack her either.

Either way I think it is not innately right or wrong for a husband to talk to his wife that way, but I think it could be done more lovingly and sound less like he is issuing ultimatums. But I feel for the guy.

[Connie]

Instead of focusing on the symptoms, he needs to get to the root of the problem. What is she struggling with? How can he help her through those struggles? Once that is taken care of, theoretically the symptoms should improve.

Thems my thoughts.

[Anddenex]

Assume for the sake of discussion that everything he says or implies is justified. Please, no snark, just honest expressions of what you think of each of the following sincere statements and why. The husband honestly believes he is justified in each statement.

• "You should get up and get going instead of sleeping in late every day." Early to bed, early to rise... I believe this implies both genders. It is a healthy habit also.

• "If you get organized and discipline yourself, you will get a lot more done." This is a truthful statement. People who are organized and disciplined do accomplish more than those who are not. However, this is a statement better said in a thoughtful discussion.

• "I work hard all day long, and I don't think it's asking too much for the basic housekeeping to be kept up on when I come home." I would also agree this is fine conversation. I, honestly, have never understood a stay at home mother, and their is no housekeeping accomplished. I assume this is because our house was always clean, even when my mom worked 40 hours a week. The house was still clean.

• "I'm willing to help out, but this is your domain, and you have to be the primary impetus behind the housekeeping. I really can't do much about it." I think this can lean towards selfishness rather than being helpful. Where there is a need we husbands need to help out. Our 40 hour work week doesn't give us any privileges when we come home.

• "When we got married, we agreed: I would make the money, and you would make the home. That was the deal. I haven't backed out of my end of the agreement, so what's going on with your end? As said, I believe this to be very harsh, but accurate -- assuming this was a discussed option before marriage. If this was an agreement, before marriage, then he has the right to address the issue. No different than a woman who keeps the house clean, honors her agreements, and then says to her husband the same sentence.

• "If you loved me more, you would do your duties as we agreed on when we married." Manipulation and should be avoided. She might be doing other activities which show her love also. Not healthy for relationships.

• "Do you understand how much pressure it puts me under to live in a highly disorganized household?" False. How we respond to our environment is our personal choice. We may not like the way our environment appears, however we still choose how we are, what we say, and what we do. Husband needs to change himself.

• "Other people know how to keep house. Why don't you talk to them?" I, personally, think a better statement would be, "Have you read any material from other people on how they keep up and balance their commitments?"

• "I just can't be happy living in this manner, with things not organized like they should be." Happiness is a choice, thus living conditions should not determine his happiness.

• "Why is it MY fault we're arguing? YOU're the one who isn't keeping up her end of the bargain!" Fault finding on both sides of the disagreement is the problem here. She obviously implied he is the reason for this argument. His response is reactionary, and then blames her. Reminds me of, "I know you are, but what am I?"

• "When I got married, I wasn't expecting this. I assumed my wife would keep her agreements." Depending on how this was said, this is an honest appeal to his wife. A wife would be fine with the same comment if her husband wasn't working.

• "Mom never had these kinds of problems with the housekeeping."

This is a tough one, at the right moment, and depending on the conversation this is fully justified. However, the man didn't marry his mom, he married a different woman with her own personality and her own character traits.

These are my initial thoughts.

[Wingnut]

Assuming that it all has a basis, I'd say that he needs to leave his mom out of the discussion, and learn a little about communication styles. My husband has said (nearly word-for-word) the first two statements to me many times. I'm the world's worst non-hoarding housekeeper. Generally speaking, though, my husband is careful to make his remarks about the actions (or lack thereof) and not about me personally. The above statements are guilt-induced, punitive, and come across as an attack on the wife's person, not on her actions. The husband should evaluate and change how he expresses his frustrations.

[Dravin]

The issue in responding, for me, is the actors (not in the Hollywood sense) involved makes a big difference, as does the exact situation. Also, tone, it's hard to communicate through text like this. Are we taking how and what is said as justified or just the substance of it? That's the crux I see, if I assume the former then you can't really complain about any of the statements as being anything other than justified, if we work with the latter it all boils down to the hypothetical we create to attach to the statements.

Thought maybe that's the point? To take ambiguous statements and ambiguous situations and see just how people go about filling in the blanks?

[NeuroTypical]

I've learned some things in 14 years of marriage:

- If you want marital bliss, you need to be more than just right about something. Much more.

- Leadership and management are two different things. How many of us guys have patriarchical blessings that mention management?

[dahlia]

Why is the wife struggling? Lots of little kids? Lazy? Unorganized? Unskilled? I think the reason behind the struggle should be examined.

So - for a time, my husband stayed at home and I pulled in the lawyer money. I can tell you now that I said many of the same things to him when he slacked off. Fortunately, he was a good cook and a clean Scandinavian who liked to do laundry and keep the house straight. But, every now and then he would slack off and I had to let him know that the day I walked in the house and there was no food on the table and he'd been home all day, he could go get a job.

When one person is working outside the home, I think s/he has every right to expect the other to keep the up the home front. My mother had 5 of us. People would come in the house and be amazed that she had any kids at all, much less 5. And she worked most of the time I was young. That's because we weren't allowed to mess up the front rooms. We had bedrooms and a rec room in the basement for our use, everything else was supposed to look good enough so anyone could walk in.

Though I'm not as much of a freak as my mother, my public living areas look good all of the time (of course, I don't have little kid stuff around and it's easier to clean if you don't make a mess in the first place) and the missionaries (who have a weird way of just dropping by) and UPS guy can step in at any time.

Short answer, I guess, is that I think the guy has a right to say what he's said, but if she is truly struggling with some issue (as opposed to being lazy), then that needs to be addressed in a supportive and non-accusatory way.

[Guest]

I can sympathize with most of the statements, though I'd have to agree with LM in that even if they are true, pointing them out so tersely will probably have diminishing returns. And experience tells me there is more than likely something other than laziness that needs to be addressed. But these last 3 are the statements of a man who likes the couch:

"Why is it MY fault we're arguing? YOU're the one who isn't keeping up her end of the bargain!"

"When I got married, I wasn't expecting this. I assumed my wife would keep her agreements."

"Mom never had these kinds of problems with the housekeeping.

[Guest]

Something else comes to mind: the role of a mother is to nurture. Now one could argue, and I would agree, that keeping a functioning home is part of nurturing. But not necessarily the greater part. If the children's needs are being met, they are being taught, and they are happy, a mother is keeping up her end, at least at minimum. Having a messy but otherwise functioning house isn't at all the same thing as quitting your job and driving your family to the poorhouse.

I strongly believe in spouses taking care of one another and doing their best to meet one another's needs, in ideal circumstances. But circumstances are rarely ideal, and when there is a crisis or period of chaos, it is the adults who should sacrifice and suffer, not the children. In other words, if the husband doesn't have clean socks on Tuesday because his son had the flu on Monday and the wife missed his laundry for having to wash blankets and sheets, well, he can darn well get up and wash his own socks.

[prisonchaplain]

Instead of focusing on the symptoms, he needs to get to the root of the problem. What is she struggling with? How can he help her through those struggles? Once that is taken care of, theoretically the symptoms should improve.

Thems my thoughts.

Connie is spot on. Why is the household still a disaster if the spouse is able to stay home all day? Are there 14 kids who don't help? If so, do they need training, or are they defiant? If there are no kids, or very few, is the stay-home spouse simply lacking in house-cleaning/organizing skills? Perhaps it's a matter of aptitude too. It might even be that after careful consideration, the stay-home spouse should seek employment, so house-cleaning services can be purchased. Some people are just not geared to stay at home.

Point being, no one wants to be a lazy spouse, disappointing the partner, not pulling a fair share, etc. Communication is huge here--and getting to the root of the problem is crucial.

[Jennarator]

SO I think that last remark about the mom not having trouble would tick off the typical woman. We are taught not to compare. We teach chilren and people that srtuggele with self worth not to compare....so that last staementr can be very hurtful, especally since she most liklyy nknows it.

[Jennarator]

Sorry, I was typing that w/ a screaming baby in my arms.

[Vort]

Are we taking how and what is said as justified or just the substance of it?

Both, though for my purposes I'm somewhat more concerned with the substance than with the nicety of expression (or lack thereof).

[Vort]

Short answer, I guess, is that I think the guy has a right to say what he's said, but if she is truly struggling with some issue (as opposed to being lazy), then that needs to be addressed in a supportive and non-accusatory way.

What if the issue she's struggling with is that she's lazy? Serious question.

For the record, this is not about Sister Vort, who is probably the least lazy person I have ever known.

[Guest]

Yeah, my MIL says her house was neat as a pin (though she has a selective memory, and others' accounts differ), but her last 3 children basically had to raise themselves, and even into adulthood you can see how that has affected them.

I don't entirely believe this little graphic, but I still think it's kind of funny:

[Vort]

Sorry, I was typing that w/ a screaming baby in my arms.

Mom never made typos when holding a screaming baby.

[Guest]

What if the issue she's struggling with is that she's lazy? Serious question.

For the record, this is not about Sister Vort, who is probably the least lazy person I have ever known.

When I'm in the low parts of my depression cycle, I'm extraordinarily lazy at home. When I'm coming out of it and in my more "up" periods, I work pretty hard. Even then, I haven't figured out how to keep everything perfect, give my kids the attention they need, and be sane.

It's easy to call someone lazy, but harder to be 100% sure that that's what it really is. I do believe there are some out there who are just plain lazy, but I think in most cases there are other things considered, which pc nicely laid out.

[dahlia]

If the children's needs are being met, they are being taught, and they are happy

But what are they being taught - that it's OK to live in a mess? That you can impose your mess on all the other people in the house? What happens when the kids go to camp or college? I've seen some nasty college dorm rooms. You don't want to be known as that kid.

Maybe I've seen too many Hoarders shows, but it seems a slippery slope from 'mess' to 'hoard' - too many 'My mom was always messy when I was growing up' that become 'Now mom can't find the front door.'

I don't think it takes much effort to straighten up. This is different (in my mind) from being a freak with the vacuum all the time, or scrubbing the kitchen floor after dinner every night (which is what we had to do). There's even a difference, if toys have to be in a public space, between having a little pile of them in one place as opposed to having them spread all over the room. I understand that. But stuff all over the place? Nope.

[Guest]

If you'd like to borrow my twins for a couple of days, they'd be happy to show you.

[Guest DeborahC]

I wonder how she'd respond to:

"I'm feeling like maybe you aren't happy with our current arrangement of me working and you keeping the house. Do you think you might enjoy swapping roles for a year?"

[Windseeker]

I've been guilty of saying pretty much all of those things.

Since having 4 kids for 3 years as a single parent, I now think more like this.

[pam]

Unfortunately those were many of the things I heard when I was married. I felt emotionally and verbally abused all of the times. Much of that time I was also working full time but some of the time was SAHM but also PTA President and school community group chairman.

Much of the reason I'm no longer married.

Edited February 28, 2013 by pam

[Dravin]

Both, though for my purposes I'm somewhat more concerned with the substance than with the nicety of expression (or lack thereof).

Well then as I said, I'm forced to have no real issue with them if both the sentiment and delivery is justified. I may have a more encompassing connotation for justified however. I tend to let justified mean more than simply justified in the sight of reason but also in the sight of God.

If we shift things back more to the justified by reason side of things though I'd say if we take the comments as an aggregate rather than isolated comments that the approach may not be effective. Not that effective approaches never require repetition, but if you find yourself running face first into a brick wall time after time you may want to go looking for a door, or at least a softer spot on the wall.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest DeborahC]

"You should get up and get going instead of sleeping in late every day."

Most people don't take well to other people telling them what they "should" do or not do

"If you get organized and discipline yourself, you will get a lot more done."

You are implying she is not organized or disciplined. Even if it's true, you are judging her instead of asking WHY she's not keeping up her end of the deal.

"I work hard all day long, and I don't think it's asking too much for the basic housekeeping to be kept up on when I come home."

I don't think it's too much to ask either, but I wonder what SHE thinks? Has she always been this way, or is this something new? Does she know how to keep up or is she overwhelmed. Does she feel appreciated? This is important to women. Or does she just figure it doesn't matter, nobody cares if she does a good job?

"I'm willing to help out, but this is your domain, and you have to be the primary impetus behind the housekeeping. I really can't do much about it."

No comment comes to mind.

"When we got married, we agreed: I would make the money, and you would make the home. That was the deal. I haven't backed out of my end of the agreement, so what's going on with your end?

We made this agreement, and you don't appear to be keeping it. When you don't keep your end of the deal, I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. I'm not sure what the answer is - can you tell me how I might help?

"If you loved me more, you would do your duties as we agreed on when we married."

Just not true. And I hate when people use guilt on me.

"Do you understand how much pressure it puts me under to live in a highly disorganized household?"

When the house is disorganized, I have a difficult time functioning.

"Other people know how to keep house. Why don't you talk to them?"

This would seriously p.o. me unless she's said she doesn't know how to keep house.

"I just can't be happy living in this manner, with things not organized like they should be."

Are YOU happy living in an unorganized house? Just wondering...

"Why is it MY fault we're arguing? YOU're the one who isn't keeping up her end of the bargain!"

She probably feels attacked, even though she's apparently wrong. Was her mother's house clean? Could she just be depressed? If yes, arguing won't help her. Do you have insurance? Would she see a marriage counselor?

"When I got married, I wasn't expecting this. I assumed my wife would keep her agreements."

"Mom never had these kinds of problems with the housekeeping." This one is a freaking bomb. NEVER compare your wife to your mother!

I feel sorry for you anyone in this situation. I also have difficulty living in disorganization, and my last long term relationship (I was inactive) was 15 years - during which time I felt like I was living with a hoarder! I couldn't keep the house clean and neat because he was constantly bringing crap inside that had no business there. I couldn't invite people over because I was embarrassed that our house looked like Ma & Pa Kettle's place. I finally left him, we remained friends, and I'm actually house-sitting for him this month. I almost cried when I saw the house. It's stacked floor to ceiling with junk. It's an illness. I don't know what to tell you. Without counseling, it probably won't get better. Maybe she's unhappy in the marriage; maybe nobody ever taught her to clean, maybe, maybe, maybe. Who knows? Good luck is all I can say. If no children are involved, I"d probably be packing, but that's my M.O.