8 year old girl t-shirt

[Dr T]

Ok, here's the situation.: The mother of an 8 year old girl made her daughter wear a t-shirt that had written on it, "I'm a thief. I steal. Stealing is when you take things that are not yours." She wore this green shirt to school and her principle had her cover the shirt.

Opinion: What are your thoughts? Is this shirt beyond proper parenting? Should the school have had her cover the shirt? Where does the school and parenting roles start and stop with the stealing issue?

[Wingnut]

I'm a big believer in natural consequences, and I can understand how the parent(s) thought that making the child own her mistakes might have a big impact on her. But I don't believe it's appropriate to humiliate or denigrate my children. That will not foster a healthy relationship of trust and love.

Last year that story went around about the dad who shot his daughter's laptop with a handgun, as part of a punishment for what she had done with her computer (I don't remember the whole story). He filmed it and put it on her Facebook account. Tons of my friends praised the parenting, lauding it as a return to respect and appropriate family values. I felt extremely uncomfortable with it. How is a teenage daughter going to trust her father, if she lives in fear that he'll pull out his gun every time she defies him?

I don't believe in punishing my children. I believe in giving them natural consequences.

[skippy740]

School is a place for learning... and student attire should not be a distraction to learning.

I'm in favor of the message of the shirt... but usually I've seen this enforced or carried out on a street corner or somewhere else other than the child's school.

At school, it would be (in my mind) a "branding" of that child by their sins being made public... and I don't think that's appropriate.

[pam]

In a world where we are trying to stop bullying..this would only give ammunition for kids to bully.

[Jennarator]

Her little friends will always have that in the back of their minds. How sad! It's going to be hard for her to earn trust back. Sure the mom should do something if she catches her daughter stealing, but it shouldn't be public. It's the scarlet letter.....

[Anddenex]

Sounds like the parents read The Scarlett Letter.

I am fine with what the parents did. I am also fine with what the school did.

[Wingnut]

In a world where we are trying to stop bullying..this would only give ammunition for kids to bully.

Forget giving ammunition -- in my opinion, it is bullying to humiliate your child with this kind of punishment.

I know that parenting is not one-size-fits-all, and that there are at least as many parenting theories as there are children in the world, but this is something that I have a hard time wrapping my head around/

Edited March 14, 2013 by Wingnut
For = Forget

[Dravin]

What are your thoughts?

While I'm all for openly making restitution for sins I'm not sure branding as you sometimes see is the best way to go.

Is this shirt beyond proper parenting?

I don't think it qualifies as abuse or anything the state should be getting involved in baring some sort of report that it goes far deeper as some sort of systematic psychological abuse.

Should the school have had her cover the shirt?

I can see the reasoning for having the shirt covered in order to prevent a distraction to the learning of others. If the reasoning is, "That's not abuse or disruptive but I don't like it, I'm gonna negate that punishment." then I disapprove.

Where does the school and parenting roles start and stop with the stealing issue?

This isn't in response to stealing specifically, but where punishments are disrupting the education of other students I'd say the school is right to step in to prevent a disruption during school hours and on school property with the lightest touch possible.

[Guest]

Humiliation is not a good parenting tool.

[Gwen]

I have a problem with this "new parenting technique". All this stuff about making teens stand on street corners with signs proclaiming their bad actions or grades. It's bullying plain and simple and we wonder why we have a problem in the schools, they learn it at home.

I would like to say that I do not have a problem with it when it comes to petty crimes and adults. I recall reading about a judge that made shop lifters clean the store parking lot (aka community service) while wearing a sign saying they got caught shop lifting, better than paying their bills and "giving them a free ride" in our over crowded system. However, this is probably where all this started.

The problem is we've taken natural parenting away from parents and then left them with no options to raise their children. It's presumed a right for kids starting at 6 to have their own phones and laptops, they don't have to earn it and it can't be taken away. You can't make kids do chores or you are a horrible parent. You are supposed to do the dishes you are the adult, you chose to have the kids, they didn't ask to be born. Yes these are things I've actually heard ppl say.

I even know a woman that her appx. 15 yr old son was getting into trouble and when the mother tried to correct her son a judge told him he was old enough legally that he did not have to listen to her. So while she was legally obligated to proved him a home, food, etc she lost what little influence she had left. Every time she tried to teach him anything it was "the judge said I didn't have to listen to you". Needless to say the relationship, though strained before, was shattered. The judge was in a position to redirect this boy and help the relationship and instead shattered what was left.

With divorce, depending on the state, at 14-16 kids don't have to listen to their parents anymore, the visitation order means nothing, and the courts don't respect parental rights. The kids are basically sent out on their own while the parents foot the bill. There used to be natural consequences. You refused to follow mom and dad's rules you were kicked out, even at 14. If you didn't want your parents and ran away you didn't get to have them pay your bills, you were on your own.

With all natural parenting destroyed not sure what other options are left. Personally rather than bully my children I'll just take the risk of being called an outdated/old fashioned/ horrible parent.

[Dr T]

That is such a sad story Gwen.

===

Thank you all for your great thoughts. I agree with many of the ideas in the above posts. In what way would you, personally, address this issue of her stealing? No abuse obviously, no bullying, no humiliation, what would you do?

[Gwen]

I have a son that went through a phase where he picked things up. He wasn't trying to steal or be bad he just picked things up and they ended up in his pockets. It was very frustrating, especially with kids in tow, to have to go back in and return things.

The first question is to figure out why the child is doing the behavior.

If they are a "normal" child and they are just experimenting with being selfish then a good scolding, making them return it, etc work fine. Once or twice and lesson learned.

For my son that didn't work.

Does the child have an issue? My son has some issues stemming from his epilepsy, sensory processing (and currently being evaluated for asperger's). A good scolding etc aren't going to work. He's not stealing to steal. My job becomes to be more watchful. When in the store he must have a hand on the cart at all times or be holding someone's hand, we check pockets while in the check out line, etc. It was also suggested that if I wasn't able to curb it to sew his pockets closed. I did have a point that where I made him ride in the cart, he didn't like that.

[Backroads]

Ugh, mixed thoughts on this.

In general, I'm against this parenting discipline action.

Labeling the girl as a thief is probably just going to insteal in her the idea she is a thief.

As a former teaacher, I'm bothered by the idea of all the kids looking at the crazy t-shirt girl instead of me.

This is downright humiliating.

On the other hand...

She stole. She ought to own up to it, and there has to be a way to teach kids to own up to that behavior.

A little shame can go a long way. But was this shame or just pure humiliation?

I will give the parents the benefit of the doubt and assume they were trying to get her to own up to her bad choice and have her taste some shame. Both good things. But I think they went about it the wrong way.

[Dr T]

I remember one time being in Lucky's, a grocery store right down the street from our house. I was in there maybe board to death, I don't remember, but I saw a roll of scotch tape so I picked it up. That was a fun thing I guess, sticky on one side, "this stuff was cool." I walked around the store with it, my mom paid for the items she gathered and we walked to her car. When we arrived there my mom saw the tape and she told me, "That is stealing. We don't steal" in a demanding tone. She marched me back into Lucky's and made me hand over their tape and tell her "I still this." I didn't mean to steal it but I learned my lesson that day.

[pam]

My dad did the same thing to me when I was elementary school age. I had taken a couple of pieces of penny candy and my dad found out when we got to the car. He marched me right back into the store and I had to admit to having taken it to the store manager. I never did it again.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

A great book about shame, and its harmful effects, how it is used in companies, schools and parenting and what is better is.. . .

Daring Greatly by Brene Brown

If you want to get a taste of what she is about, she has a TED talk or two at TED.com

I am against what the parents did.

[wyarwehere]

I think the shame part comes in when you have to own up to it. My parents, too, took me back to apologize to the store manager when I took some pieces of candy. Backroads had a point, that the shame is good at times, avoiding the humiliation. And for some kids, the thought of humiliation works too. Growing up, my mom had the philosophy that if we embarassed her in public(throwing tantrums when we were old enough to know better(6-9 age range) or mouthing off(as we got older) she would embarrass us by coming to our school in her pajamas and showing affection. I never tested those waters....

[Bini]

I remember that shooting-laptop incident. I'm glad to see that people were disturbed by that because what I recall of the discussion on this forum, there were actually some people that thought the father was a hero and was pretty darn cool for what he did. I thought it was a very poor choice of utilising a teaching moment, as I feel this is.

[Bini]

Ok, here's the situation.: The mother of an 8 year old girl made her daughter wear a t-shirt that had written on it, "I'm a thief. I steal. Stealing is when you take things that are not yours." She wore this green shirt to school and her principle had her cover the shirt.

Opinion: What are your thoughts? Is this shirt beyond proper parenting? Should the school have had her cover the shirt? Where does the school and parenting roles start and stop with the stealing issue?

I wanted to comment directly on this.

Parents and teachers have a lot on their plates. Good communication between both parties is important and I believe that this particular situation could have better been addressed as opposed to how it was addressed.

Here's a thought that I didn't see considered in previous posts. Teachers try to set an environment that will best benefit the majority of the students. Part of this is creating a non-threatening atmosphere, where children feel safe and able to contribute. I think a teacher has the right (within the law and facility's regulations) to run their classroom as they feel is in the best interest of their students as a whole. Instructing that a child remove or turn inside out an article of clothing that is generally offensive or disruptive to the teaching environment is an appropriate stance. If I were a teacher, I would have done the same, as I feel that this kind of consequence only puts a big elephant in the room and divides instead of unites peers. There are better methods.

[NeuroTypical]

From my perspective, this is a case where I have no cause to pass judgement one way or the other. It's none of my business, kid is not in my stewardship, I don't have all the facts, etc. Parents have the duty, responsibility, and stewardship necessary to make such decisions.

No, I don't think it's automatically abuse, bullying, or trust-breaking. It could be. No, I don't think it's automatically helpful, beneficial, or good in any way. It could be.

My basic reaction is that I'm raising kids who know right from wrong, and so far, all of the wrong they do on purpose involves just a little pressing the buttons of their siblings on purpose. I'm grateful I haven't had to deal with a bunch of problems like this.

[Backroads]

In regards to those who were marched back to the store to return candy and confess... I find that a good response. If my kids steal, I'll do something similar. It returns the candy (or pays for it), puts the kid in the position of knowing what was done was wrong and fixing it, and theoretically resolves the situation. It's a far cry from a humiliation t-shirt that, as far as I can tell, is just humiliating.

[Canuck Mormon]

Maybe the parent should be made to wear a shirt to the mall saying "I'm a bad parent and a bully to my own kids."

Guaranteed the parent will never make their kids do that again.

[pam]

Maybe the parent should be made to wear a shirt to the mall saying "I'm a bad parent and a bully to my own kids."

Guaranteed the parent will never make their kids do that again.

Well there's a name we haven't seen on the forums in awhile. About time you made an appearance again.

[Canuck Mormon]

Well there's a name we haven't seen on the forums in awhile. About time you made an appearance again.

Just dipping my toe back in, Pam. Testing the waters.

Maybe I'll stay longer, maybe not.

Edited March 15, 2013 by skippy740
Had to add a comma as that toe may be going somewhere inappropriate. :)

[Wingnut]

Canuck, just to clarify, my laugh is not at your post, but rather at Skippy's editorial commentary on your post.