Afraid Im apostisizing

[pooter1]

I believe that I might be becoming an apostate and may need to turn my temple recommend in. What do you think?

I no longer believe that tithing brings blessings but I do believe we are suppose to pay it.

I believe that God has favorites.I am not one of them.

I believe that it doesn't matter if a mother stays home to raise her children or not. If I only knew I would have definitly went to work instead of staying home.

I do not believe that if you raise your child in the church that he will stay

I would never help spread the gospel because it does not bring happiness but i don't believe I would find it any where else either.

Not all blessings work although I have seen some that do.

I do not believe that all callings come from god

As I write this you would think why don't I leave then.Something makes me stay. I am no longer a temple worker and I just asked to be released from my calling from church. Do not want to go to church tomorrow.I do not feel like I belong anymore and it has nothing to do with the people at church.I love them all so much. I WANT the gospel to work in my life but I have fought for it all my life. Yes I have talked to the Bishop.He can talk to me all he wants but i can't help the way I feel. Is there ANYONE out there like me?

[Dravin]

If you've shared your feelings with your Bishop and he didn't ask you to turn in your recommend I'm not going to suggest you do so.

He can talk to me all he wants but i can't help the way I feel.

Usually that phrase is used to indicate one has stopped trying to change how they feel. Is this one of the usual cases?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Angel, only you (and God) can know for sure, but to me it sounds like mostly you are hurting and secondly you are questioning.

When I was at a similar place, I really wanted to stop attending church and had serious questions about what I believed and what I did not...I decided to give John Bytheway's advice a try. He counseled teenagers, "Instead of questioning your beliefs, question your doubts." (paraphrased) So I made an appointment with the Bishop to discuss some of my concerns. We have been meeting regularly for a few months now, and my "personal Sunday School lessons" as I like to call our meetings have been really helpful.

I know you said you have already talked to your Bishop...perhaps there is someone else you could talk to. I know John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) talks to his Stake President, because his Bishop did not feel comfortable discussing his particular concerns. Perhaps a friend, visiting teacher, home teacher??? All you need (IMO) is someone that is willing to really listen and help you work through some things.

I no longer believe that tithing brings blessings but I do believe we are suppose to pay it.

Since I have been a full-tithe payer all my life (my husband also) and we still went through bankruptcy and foreclosure...um yeah, those tithing blessing talks rub me the wrong way. I believe that we should pay tithing because we love God. It is a way to acknowledge that everything have is from Him. I believe he does bless us for paying it...BUT in his own time and in His own way which may or may not match up with our ideas.

I believe that God has favorites.I am not one of them.

That is a tough one, but I understand it. I used to joke that I felt like one of God's favorites because I felt so blessed, and then came a time I wasn't even certain He existed anymore because I felt to fully abandoned. I would suggest discussing that one with your Bishop. He would have more insight that is particular to you.

I believe that it doesn't matter if a mother stays home to raise her children or not. If I only knew I would have definitly went to work instead of staying home.

I'm guessing from this that your mother was a stay-at-home mom??? Mine had to work and that was pretty disastrous all around for me. I was a stay-at-home mom for as long as I could be (13 years) for that reason. I know I needed my mom as a child...

I do not believe that if you raise your child in the church that he will stay

I have two thoughts about this...first is Heavenly Father lost 1/3 of his children. Adam and Eve had one of their sons murder another and on and on...so why do we expect that if we raise our kids in the church "success" is guaranteed?

On the other hand, I believe that Heavenly Father desires for all of us to return to Him if possible and I don't think you should give up on your children until the Final Judgement....until that time, I believe there is hope.

I would never help spread the gospel because it does not bring happiness but i don't believe I would find it any where else either.

I don't think this life is meant to be happy. Now...before someone posts a bunch of quotes from our Leaders about happiness, remember that I am healing from childhood abuse, of course I see the world differently that people who were raised by parents who loved and cherished them....of course I see the pain and sadness in the world. So much pain and sadness....

BUT I also believe that God loves us and that there is a reason for all this suffering. I believe that someday we will all, regardless of our circumstances, say, "It was worth it" even me. But not this day.

Not all blessings work although I have seen some that do.

I agree, but for this one I "blame" the people involved not God. :) I have seen many priesthood prayers (I mean they really didn't speak with the power of the priesthood because they didn't understand it yet...) and also sometimes I think our own desires get in the way of hearing the Spirit clearly.

I do not believe that all callings come from god

Nope, me neither. You know that joke about some callings being inspiration and some desperation...I think that is absolutely true. God does not micro-manage us.

As I write this you would think why don't I leave then.Something makes me stay.

No actually I wasn't wondering that. I was thinking, "yes but..." Yes, but how do you feel about Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. How do you feel about the Bible, and the Book of Mormon? How do you feel about the Pre-exsistence and the Plan of Salvation?

These things are core to your testimony, the things you mentioned are not.

Do not want to go to church tomorrow.I do not feel like I belong anymore

I feel the same way and have for about three years now. I'm making progress though, church doesn't make me cry every week now like it did before. . .

I remember here on the board recently someone said that going to church is hard for him. You are not alone in that.

Yes I have talked to the Bishop.He can talk to me all he wants but i can't help the way I feel. Is there ANYONE out there like me?

Sounds like he did a lot of talking and not enough listening...listening is becoming a lost art.

You said that something makes you stay...hold on to that for now. Hold on to the Iron Rod...which is Christ. (I know the Iron Rod is the word of God, but look at John 1:1....word of God is one of Christ's names....think about it what is the whole purpose of the scriptures if not to testify of Christ...) So hold on to the Iron Rod, to Christ. You don't have to believe, accept, or understand everything at church to do that. Just hold on until the answers do come.

[pam]

I no longer believe that tithing brings blessings but I do believe we are suppose to pay it.

What kind of blessings do you believe you should be getting?

I believe that it doesn't matter if a mother stays home to raise her children or not. If I only knew I would have definitly went to work instead of staying home.

Staying home with children is not a commandment nor is it a requirement. Many women work. It is a personal choice.

I do not believe that if you raise your child in the church that he will stay

That is true. Children have their agency just like parents do. All we can do is do the best we can to teach them and hope that they stay on the right path. It is ultimately up to the child.

I would never help spread the gospel because it does not bring happiness but i don't believe I would find it any where else either.

Does not bring happiness to who? To you? If that is the only reason it's a selfish reason. What about the person who might be learning about the gospel for the first time? We would hope that it would bring happiness to many others.

Not all blessings work although I have seen some that do.

Again my question would be just as with tithing...do you believe all blessings should end up being ONLY what you want them to be?

I do not believe that all callings come from god

Neither do I. But i do believe that a majority of them are inspired. Sometimes we can't see the reason but I do truly believe that many callings are offered for a reason.

[pooter1]

Please don't put me down or bash.These are my feelings and I am very very scared. I need to understand why the gospel has not helped. Ive done it all.Kept the commandments,prayed,scriptures,tithing,Ive done the whole thing for years and years!!.Maybe Im just getting old and tired and ready to go.

[Dravin]

I need to understand why the gospel has not helped. Ive done it all.Kept the commandments,prayed,scriptures,tithing,Ive done the whole thing for years and years!

How has the gospel changed you over the years? The Gospel isn't something one simply does to keep current, it is a method of changing who we are. One of the more difficult things about pondering that question is that if one has always been faithful it can be hard to figure out a baseline, but I still think it is a question that can be answered, particularly if prayer is involved.

[pam]

I think there are many things that obviously keep you there. Sometimes we do things for so long we tend to lose why we are even doing them. Sometimes going back to the basics of our faith help.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Please don't put me down or bash.These are my feelings and I am very very scared. I need to understand why.

Angel, my post was meant to be kind and supportive...I hope you did not take it any other way.

As for the others...I don't think anyone intended to put you down or bash, though I can see how you might feel that way...people have different ways of being supportive, or different ideas about what would be most helpful and sometimes people might respond defensively (not saying that happened in this thread, just generalizing) for their own personal reasons that have nothing to do with you.

The nice thing about a forum like this is you can get responses from a wide range of people..."keep" what is helpful and leave the rest. :)

[pooter1]

Parakeet,You have said the magic words to me.Thank you for putting them in such a nonjudgemental way. I don't know how to use the quote thingy but you said " Yes, but how do you feel about Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. How do you feel about the Bible, and the Book of Mormon? How do you feel about the Pre-exsistence and the Plan of Salvation?

These things are core to your testimony, the things you mentioned are not."

This made me cry.I do believe in God and jesus and Book of Mormon. Thats the most important part right? Im glad you used your words in a way that would make me feel better.I feel like you might have had some bad life experiences yourself and might know how I feel. Thank you so much.

[pooter1]

Parakket when I put Please don't bash me it was not meant for you.I have said things before on this forum and have been bashed and put down.

You know that's all I have hoped for that someone somewhere in this world someone knows how I feel.

Pam,You are right I have probably received all the blessings I am suppose to receive from paying my tithing. You are also probably right about spreading the gospel should be about making others happy and not me. I hope it does.

[Wingnut]

Angel, I highly recommend reading through this thread. I started it a couple of weeks ago as I was struggling personally with some things related to my church attendance, and I found each of the responses to be quite uplifting to my spirit.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/52207-what-makes-you-stay.html

[skippy740]

First, I don't believe you are "apostatizing".

I'm using the quote function to isolate a few of your statements and seek clarification. Not meant to belittle how you feel.

I believe that God has favorites.I am not one of them.

I believe that you are:

- looking around and

- judging yourself

Based on:

- where you think you should be, and

- comparing yourself to others

- on where you think they are.

Would that be a correct observation?

I would never help spread the gospel because it does not bring happiness but i don't believe I would find it any where else either.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a feeling combined with scriptural knowledge. I find peace in the doctrines of Christ that are here in the Church that don't exist elsewhere.

Not all blessings work although I have seen some that do.

Do you mean that not all blessings come in the time frame according to obedience to the principle upon it is predicated?

I WANT the gospel to work in my life but I have fought for it all my life.

Perhaps it's time to stop fighting for it and find ways to let things happen naturally for you?

Many members can be caught up in the "obedience checklist". They can rattle off everything that they do, but that doesn't mean that they have a testimony. In fact, it could mean that they are trying to 'save themselves'.

If you look up the following verse in your printed scriptures (page 98 in The Book of Mormon), there is a page break. I think it subtly changes the way that we think about grace and works. It's too easy to focus on the 2nd half of the verse, and not remember that it is PREDICATED upon the 1st half.

2 Nephi 25:23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we

[insert page break here]

know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Basically, I'm trying to say to not try to save yourself on your own. It's okay to have doubts and fears. And sometimes, we don't always understand certain aspects of the gospel.

That's where and when we need Grace of the Atonement.

Believing Christ the Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News: Stephen E Robinson: 9780875796345: Amazon.com: Books

[mikbone]

Well from the list you presented you are not apostate.

Burnt out from your mortal test? Possibly.

Here is the way that I look at it.

Hebrews 12

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

We come here from our pre-mortal existence to learn and to be tested. We have to go through difficulties to learn how to deal with them. These hard lessons give us experience and make us stronger.

I am a bone doctor. There is a very important law that I deal with in my work environment called Wolff's Law. Basically it states that Bone remodels and adapts to loads under which it is placed. For example If I have two patients that are both 70 year old females. The first patient is a bit overweight but very active. She tries to eat a healthy diet but has worked her whole life. She likes to get her hands dirty and work in her garden. She likes to ride her bike and hikes on the weekends. The second patient is a bit under weight (she is a health food advocate and a practicing vegan) but she lives a life of leisure. She dislikes physical activity (sweating) and spends most of her day sitting, reading, etc. Who do you think has better bone??? Would you believe that the heavier active patient will have bone that is significantly stronger and healthy than the 2nd patient? And here is the kicker. If you put an astronaut in space for 3-4 months and then test his bone with the bone of the 70 year old females he may have the worst bone density.

Why is this significant? Because Wolff's law also applies to our spirits. There are people who come to earth and do not appear to be pushed. Whereas other seem to have to overcome issue after issue. Those people who are overcoming problems are slowly but progressively becoming stronger and stronger.

Perhaps the Lord thinks highly of you. You may have made significant commitments in the pre-existence.

Take some time and study out these revelations given to Joseph Smith

D&C 121

7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands.

10 Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job.

D&C 122

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

Finally on your last point. That you do not think that all callings come from God. I have to agree with you here. The Church authorities are trying to do their best. It is easy to argue that since a man is called to be the bishop any calling that He extends is from God. And that may be correct. But then again many non inspired things have transpired in the church as well. I am pretty sure that when I was at BYU living in married student housing that my calling of "stairwell leader" was not inspired. The Bishop felt that everyone needed a calling and it was pretty obvious that callings were being made up. My duties were to tack a handout onto the stairwell bulletin board monthly. I also had the opportunity of being a branch president in southern Chile while on my mission. I had to call a new relief society president and sunday school president. My first 4-5 choices for each calling either declined for personal reasons or I had to withhold the offer because I learned during the interview that the member was living contrary to their covenants and they had to be put on probation. Eventually I had to call members that were willing to take the call and doing their best to live the law of chastity or word of wisdom...

Edited March 16, 2013 by mikbone

[james12]

Angel, I wonder if I can share a message without sounding irreligious or irreverent. For I believe I am not. But there is a different way to see the gospel. It has less to do with rules and perhaps unrealized promises. Maybe it will help. If it does not then feel free to forget it.

Sometimes the weight of others expectations or the weight of our own can pull us down. It seems to come from every angle that we must do better, that we must be more. It caries with it a promise of happiness of peace but it always seems to be simply that, a promise. The actual realization of the blessing is so far in the future that it is almost unobtainable.

But the more I read the more I am convinced there is more to it. One translation of the Bible puts Jesus' words in this form, "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” (John 11:28-30, The Message) Have you ever found a peace which just surrounds you? Have you ever had that moment where it seemed all your difficulties were far away? This could be in the temple or in nature. These sometimes only last for a moment, but I say, seek to find that again. See the harmony underlying the gospel, and what the spirit asks you to do. Don't push. Instead try and feel what he means you to feel in the moment. It is not so much about doing but about finding a state of being and resting in that state. While at work or at home try and find the peace, the center point. It is not easy sometimes, but it will happen more as you seek it. It is in these moments that we find Him. I think moments such as these are the core of religion.

When we find it, religion ceases to become such a burden. It is a sort of freedom. This, I submit, is how Jesus lived his life.

The man [Jesus] is free -- free from what people think, free from religion, free from false obligation. People won't like it, won't understand it; they'll draw false conclusions, point fingers, and worse. He is free from that as well. Oh to be so free. The more you fall in love with Jesus' genuine goodness, which is true goodness, the more you will absolutely detest the counterfeit of a false piety and a shallow morality. As he did. Jesus has a wild freedom born out of a profound holiness." (Beautiful Outlaw, p 91-92)

[applepansy]

I don't believe you're an apostate.

Sometimes life's bumps leave us bruised and battered. Sometimes we are looking for specific blessings and really need them. Sometime we (ME) really need a specific blessing so badly that we (ME) might forget that blessing come in Heavenly Father's time frame, not always when we think they should.

I had to teach myself to recognize everything as a blessing. When I did that by keeping a blessing journal I started recognized the blessings that were answers to prayer, answers to fasting, answers to the unspoken desires of my heart.

Maybe a blessing journal would be helpful.

You're in my prayers.

[searching_questioner]

Angel, I'm guessing that there were some times, perhaps many, during your experience as a temple worker, maybe during the morning devotionals, or maybe when you were helping a temple patron in a special way, that you felt the kind of peace that James12 refers to above. If so, that peace comes from somewhere, or Someone, and it means something.

Edited March 16, 2013 by searching_questioner
corrected some spelling

[Guest]

read this

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/46658-gospel-jesus-christ-easy-hard.html#post672823

[skalenfehl]

I believe that I might be becoming an apostate and may need to turn my temple recommend in. What do you think?

I no longer believe that tithing brings blessings but I do believe we are suppose to pay it.

I believe that God has favorites.I am not one of them.

I believe that it doesn't matter if a mother stays home to raise her children or not. If I only knew I would have definitly went to work instead of staying home.

I do not believe that if you raise your child in the church that he will stay

I would never help spread the gospel because it does not bring happiness but i don't believe I would find it any where else either.

Not all blessings work although I have seen some that do.

I do not believe that all callings come from god

As I write this you would think why don't I leave then.Something makes me stay. I am no longer a temple worker and I just asked to be released from my calling from church. Do not want to go to church tomorrow.I do not feel like I belong anymore and it has nothing to do with the people at church.I love them all so much. I WANT the gospel to work in my life but I have fought for it all my life. Yes I have talked to the Bishop.He can talk to me all he wants but i can't help the way I feel. Is there ANYONE out there like me?

There are truly angels and attending spirits around us every day. And evil ones as well. They whisper these things to you. The more you listen to either influence, the more power they begin to have over you until you are fully brought into the light or perish in the dark. Please listen to the Spirit, which is exhorting you to stay. Find your way back to light and love. It is more wonderful than you can yet imagine.

[Guest]

I also wonder if you have looked at adjusting your meds and finding a good therapist like you've talked about needing to do in the past. Depression and anxiety distort our thinking.

[Finrock]

I believe that I might be becoming an apostate and may need to turn my temple recommend in. What do you think?

I no longer believe that tithing brings blessings but I do believe we are suppose to pay it.

I believe that God has favorites.I am not one of them.

I believe that it doesn't matter if a mother stays home to raise her children or not. If I only knew I would have definitly went to work instead of staying home.

I do not believe that if you raise your child in the church that he will stay

I would never help spread the gospel because it does not bring happiness but i don't believe I would find it any where else either.

Not all blessings work although I have seen some that do.

I do not believe that all callings come from god

As I write this you would think why don't I leave then.Something makes me stay. I am no longer a temple worker and I just asked to be released from my calling from church. Do not want to go to church tomorrow.I do not feel like I belong anymore and it has nothing to do with the people at church.I love them all so much. I WANT the gospel to work in my life but I have fought for it all my life. Yes I have talked to the Bishop.He can talk to me all he wants but i can't help the way I feel. Is there ANYONE out there like me?

Instead of apostatizing you might be suffering from depression. See if that makes sense and get help if you need it.

Regards,

Finrock

[pooter1]

I have read all of your comments and you can never know how much better I feel. I know I will never understand why such bad things happen to me but I also know there is no where else to go.I still have a desire to do good and and keep the commandments.Whether I believe in blessings and everything I mentioned, isn't believing in God and wanting to keep his commandments enough? Just because I don't believe that good things won't happen for me doesn't mean I don't have a chance in the celestial kingdom.Am I right? Because that is my thinking. Bad things happen to me because Im sinning and I don't deserve blessings but I can't figure out what Im doing that is so wrong and it drives me crazy and Im up at night and my head won't stop worrying. i would like to blame my depression and anxiety disorder but I keep thinking what did I do to deserve this disorder and yes I am on meds for this so that shouldn't even matter. I like the idea of having a blessing journal maybe I will start one of those. Than you so much for all your comments.All of you have got me thinking of different ways that might help me.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Angel, you can be a wonderful person (not sinning) and still have awful things happen to you. "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" is one of the great theological/philosophical questions. I know many in our church would say "God gives us tribulation to help us grow." Maybe that is true in some cases, but God does not give us rape, molestation, genocide, etc to help us grow. Those are things that occur because some people use their free agency in despicable ways.

I tried to answer that question about why bad things happen to good people for a long time. I have some ideas, but mostly I just decided that the why doesn't matter for now. If I can just get back to the place where I can turn to God for help--that is what matters.

I have heard that dogs can't see rainbows, because they don't see color. So even if they could understand speech, how could you explain color to them? I believe that some of the answers I don't have are like that. Things I can't understand now because of my limited vision.

I don't know why some are called to suffer so, but I can assure you that sinning, or deserving it is NOT the only reason. Satan would like for you to believe that it is "all your fault" somehow because then you will feel unworthy to turn to God for help and comfort. But nothing could be farther from the truth. You are a beloved daughter of God and He wants to hold you and comfort you...but He can't force us. We have to go to Him.

Hold on, someday we will be able to see the rainbows and understand the whys.

[pooter1]

Thank you parakeet.

[Gwen]

angel, I sent you a private message the other day. Just wanted to make sure you knew it was there.

[Anddenex]

angel333

I really have nothing to offer except listening to this talk given by Elder David A. Bednar. There are items in this talk that may provide your spirit with some comfort...hopefully.

The link is attached to his name.