Be perfect (Matt 5:48)

[Traveler]

Often I hear the expression, "No one is perfect".

I have pondered this declaration and have come to the conclusion that it is in truth misleading.

Point #1. We were and are "perfect" creations.

Point #2. Our intended destiny is to be (end up) perfect - thus the scripture Matt 5:48.

Point #3. We can only become imperfect by choice and deliberate effort. I submit that this point is in complete contradiction to the "no one is perfect" attitude. Rather every one is perfect unless they - of their own choice - they become imperfect.

The Traveler

[Praetorian_Brow]

Honestly, I would rather be flawed, as once perfection is attained, there is not much point in progress. In reality, the statement, "no one is perfect", is a positive statement that everyone is equal in their own struggles.

I think true perfection is when we recognize flaws within ourselves, accept that and compensate in a constructive manner. The flaw will always remain, but we will be stronger for it.

Besides, cracks let in the light.

[Dravin]

How are you defining perfect? Particularly in regards to you scare quoting it in point #1, which suggests the definition/use in point #1 is different than in the other two points.

[Jenamarie]

I think what is meant by "nobody is perfect" is that everybody makes mistakes.

The scriptural use of the word "perfect", however, means "complete" or "whole". We were perfect at the Creation, then became imperfect due to the Fall. We will can regain that perfection, and be complete and whole again, when we are reunited with God, which will happen as we strive always to draw nearer to Him, and endure to the end.

[Anddenex]

Often I hear the expression, "No one is perfect".

I have pondered this declaration and have come to the conclusion that it is in truth misleading.

Point #1. We were and are "perfect" creations.

Point #2. Our intended destiny is to be (end up) perfect - thus the scripture Matt 5:48.

Point #3. We can only become imperfect by choice and deliberate effort. I submit that this point is in complete contradiction to the "no one is perfect" attitude. Rather every one is perfect unless they - of their own choice - they become imperfect.

The Traveler

I would agree with the term being misleading, because our Savior's life proves that individuals could have chosen perfection. The Lord was given every temptation know to man, and still endured it perfectly. I also think many people, especially members, use this principle "No one is perfect" as a reason to justify their sin, their imperfection -- without having an attitude for change.

At times, however, I think "No one is perfect" is a good principle to recognize all have fallen, or all have sinned. We then recognize to not judge another because they sin differently, or we recognize God will forgive whom he will forgive, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

I believe Christ showed us the perfect path, by which all of us could have chosen, but as your Point #3 provides, "Rather every one is perfect unless they - of their own choice - they become imperfect." I would be perfect if I, through my own agency, had not chosen to sin. No one makes me sin, not even my body. I sin when I choose a path of sin, over a path of righteousness.

The only two individuals I can see, from my point of view, who may not fall into this category are Adam and Eve. Both transgressed to allow us the opportunity to experience mortal life.

[Finrock]

Unlike Adam and Eve I was born to a fallen world. I was imperfect from the very beginning. I was "conceived in sin". We cannot escape our imperfection, even if we make all of the right choices.

16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins (Emphasis added).

We become perfect through Christ. We cannot be made perfect any other way.

-Finrock

Edited December 9, 2013 by Finrock

[prisonchaplain]

Jesus had just told the disciples to love their enemies. It's easy to imagine the, "Are you kidding me???!!! Come on. Nobody's perfect!" look they gave him. He responds that we are to be perfect as He is perfect. We are to love our enemies.

FWIW, I really don't like the 'tude (shrugged shoulds, 'whatever' look) that often comes with the "Nobody's perfect" retort.

[Tzesaro]

The guide to the scriptures says under perfect:

"Complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous. Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect. True followers of Christ may become perfect through his grace and atonement."

There's mentioned two definitions of perfect.

By the first definition of being complete, whole, and fully developed, I don't think Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall. Wasn't the purpose of the fall and the atonement for us to be able to become fully developed, so to say?

By the second definition, they were... because they had not yet fallen, or sinned.

Because of Christ, both definitions can become true for each of us. But they are not now.

Also, I like this statement by Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

"Nobody becomes perfect in this life. Becoming perfect in Christ is a process. We begin to keep commandments today, and we keep more of them tomorrow. We can become perfect in minor things. [...]"

[Anddenex]

Unlike Adam and Eve I was born to a fallen world. I was imperfect from the very beginning. I was "conceived in sin". We cannot escape our imperfection, even if we make all of the right choices.

We become perfect through Christ. We cannot be made perfect any other way.

-Finrock

The aspect that troubles me (trouble meaning causes me to reflect) is that the Lord was also conceived through a fallen women, yet he was still able to overcome the fallen nature and keep himself from sin.

[Tzesaro]

About that, there's the interesting difference between Matt 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48 after Christ had resurrected.

Matt 5:48 : "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

3 Nephi 12:48 : "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect."

Edited December 9, 2013 by Tzesaro
Apostroph

[Traveler]

The point is that the plan of G-d is perfect. It is perfect for everyone. It is perfect for Adam and Eve and it is perfect for you and me. It is perfect for the child that takes one breath and dies in pain - yes it is still perfect for all such. The plan of G-d is perfect - there is no flaw anywhere and his plan is 100% complete - not missing a single thing.

What ever anyone says concerning this mortal experience this fallen state - there is nothing that is not perfect for each and ever person that comes into this life - regardless of whatever problem. We are here experiencing what is perfect for us.

I submit that those that say "no one is perfect" could not be more wrong and could not be more misunderstanding of G-d and misunderstanding of our purpose and destiny. The truth is - We are perfect and our fallen state is perfect for us in our place and time. We should not be complaining - we should be rejoicing, we should be glad and we should be thankful.

The Traveler

[Quin]

The aspect that troubles me (trouble meaning causes me to reflect) is that the Lord was also conceived through a fallen women, yet he was still able to overcome the fallen nature and keep himself from sin.

He had good genes. (Tongue half in cheek)

While I hate to give a sister short shrift (and that really isn't my intention, she did RAISE him, after all)... Ahem. Who was his father?

I suspect being half God gives one a slight nudge up in the perfection sphere.

Q

[james12]

He had good genes. (Tongue half in cheek)

While I hate to give a sister short shrift (and that really isn't my intention, she did RAISE him, after all)... Ahem. Who was his father?

I suspect being half God gives one a slight nudge up in the perfection sphere.

Q

I don't believe that Jesus' Father gave him any more advantage to progress then us. To say such, is to lessen what he did and separate him from us.

[McLainDow]

The Greek word that is translated to perfect means complete. I do not think we are meant to achieve perfection in this life, but as has been stated by other posters it is not an excuse to not work towards the ideal.

[Traveler]

The Greek word that is translated to perfect means complete. I do not think we are meant to achieve perfection in this life, but as has been stated by other posters it is not an excuse to not work towards the ideal.

I agree and thank you for your reminder concerning "complete". However your very next sentence bothers me because it seems to contradict the first. There are three words in the scriptures I find most interesting. They are "perfect", "holy" and "Whole". I believe that the three are in each other and mean and reference in essence the same thing.

I believe that the means to become holy, whole or perfect is repentance through the power of the atonement. In fact without the atonement there is no power to be perfect, holy or whole. I believe that the thinking that it is impossible to be "perfect" exist and will continue until the atonement and the power of the atonement of Christ takes hold in a person's life.

Thus weather a person believes that perfection is possible in this life or if they do not believe it is possible - they are right - especially (without question) concerning themselves.

The Traveler

[mordorbund]

As a matter of clarification, there are scriptural examples of mortals who reached biblical levels of perfection in mortality.

http://www.askgramps.org/12659/perfection-2

The Greek word used in the New Testament is “teleios“, which means finished or complete (with a nod towards “fully mature”). When we look at the usage in the Old Testament, we find a similar Hebrew vernacular. Job’s perfection (“tam”) is “complete”, but also “morally innocent” and “having integrity”. Similarly, perfect Noah (tamiym) is “complete” and “whole”. Asa’s heart is described as perfect (“shalem”) in a measured and complete sense.

[drham3rd]

I think that we strive toward perfection by asking for forgiveness constantly! That is how the atonement works! How can we be perfect given all the trials and tribulations and senses that we have to struggle with everyday we breath! I believe that we can only strive to be perfect though the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!

If I was perfect I would not loose my temper when my 4yr old step-granddaughter decides to throw a temper-tantum in the middle of super! :)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Often I hear the expression, "No one is perfect".

I have pondered this declaration and have come to the conclusion that it is in truth misleading.

Point #1. We were and are "perfect" creations.

Point #2. Our intended destiny is to be (end up) perfect - thus the scripture Matt 5:48.

Point #3. We can only become imperfect by choice and deliberate effort. I submit that this point is in complete contradiction to the "no one is perfect" attitude. Rather every one is perfect unless they - of their own choice - they become imperfect.

The Traveler

Do you consider your body as "you" or a temporary stewardship? Does the unjust steward claim his stewardship as his own?

When we choose our imperfect body over our perfect spirit, that is the process of becoming imperfect. When we choose to make worldly things our treasure, which includes the stewardship of the body and all of its traits, then our heart is focused on worldly or carnal things. Being carnally minded is the process of becoming imperfect, whereas being spiritually minded leads to perfection. The first step is to realize that we are dual beings in this life and we should remember who we really are, sons and daughters of God, not sons and daughters of man.

I don't think we should confuse a temporary state with who we really are. In a temporary state, even Christ had to increase in stature amongst man and God. Christ gave up His temporary state to reach salvation. He turned away the carnal things, turning stone to bread, fame etc. Following Christ's example, the process of perfection is to turn away carnality for our real self and to not claim our carnal self as "perfection". Matthew 6: " 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Ultimately, our perfection is what we want for our spirit. Dust will turn to dust. Paul couldn't get rid of his imperfection, his thorn in the flesh, and neither can we. It wasn't intended that Paul make that perfect, even when he asked that it be. But "we" are not our body, this is just a temporary stewardship. If we keep our spirit pure and perfect then the body we receive in the resurrection will match it's level of perfection and then we become perfect.

[Traveler]

Do you consider your body as "you" or a temporary stewardship? Does the unjust steward claim his stewardship as his own?

When we choose our imperfect body over our perfect spirit, that is the process of becoming imperfect. When we choose to make worldly things our treasure, which includes the stewardship of the body and all of its traits, then our heart is focused on worldly or carnal things. Being carnally minded is the process of becoming imperfect, whereas being spiritually minded leads to perfection. The first step is to realize that we are dual beings in this life and we should remember who we really are, sons and daughters of God, not sons and daughters of man.

I don't think we should confuse a temporary state with who we really are. In a temporary state, even Christ had to increase in stature amongst man and God. Christ gave up His temporary state to reach salvation. He turned away the carnal things, turning stone to bread, fame etc. Following Christ's example, the process of perfection is to turn away carnality for our real self and to not claim our carnal self as "perfection". Matthew 6: " 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Ultimately, our perfection is what we want for our spirit. Dust will turn to dust. Paul couldn't get rid of his imperfection, his thorn in the flesh, and neither can we. It wasn't intended that Paul make that perfect, even when he asked that it be. But "we" are not our body, this is just a temporary stewardship. If we keep our spirit pure and perfect then the body we receive in the resurrection will match it's level of perfection and then we become perfect.

I am sorry Seminary but I think you are trying to make a point from a positional viewpoint that is 180 degrees out of sync with the eternal struggle to make us perfect and like G-d.

First you ask a question about “my body” – which could apply to any person. Considering semantics – if I am a steward then it is not mine and if it is my body then I am not just the steward of it. I am more connected and invested as the owner. For the point of discussion I prefer according to my understanding to think of the body I use in this life is a gift to me which I have earned in part and to which I am personally invested. Therefore the better I take care of “my body” the better the investment will be for me. I do not think my treatment of my body can possibly diminish anyone else but me.

Secondly you characterize our body as being imperfect and our spirit as being perfect. I am convinced that you have it all wrong and that the truth is in reality just the opposite. Being that our body is perfect and it is our spirit that is imperfect. Our body is perfectly designed and is without flaw in any way. It is 100% complete and perfectly designed to benefit us for all things eternal. It is a perfect fit for what our imperfect spirit needs to progress to a higher more noble understanding and enlightenment. Our perfect body is perfectly and uniquely suited for each individual spirit in order for that spirit to develop any and all that is necessary for an eternal and glorified perfect being. If there is any failure or imperfection it is not the physical body that fails to fulfill it perfect design but it is the flaw in the spirit being that has taken possession of the perfect body to learn and acquire what it needs.

My point is most important for our imperfect spirits becoming perfect. Rather than blame G-d for an imperfect body that is destroying our possibilities we should rightfully thank G-d for this perfect gift that will bless every spirit that receives their perfect opportunity. We need to realize that our body is perfect for us and a perfect blessing for our imperfect spirit that can become perfect from our perfectly designed body – perfectly for us.

The Traveler

[McLainDow]

If we became "Perfect" in this life wouldn't that rule out eternal progression?

[Vort]

If we became "Perfect" in this life wouldn't that rule out eternal progression?

Only if you accept the Platonic philosophical idea that "perfection" must be an ultimate and unchangeable state.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am sorry Seminary but I think you are trying to make a point from a positional viewpoint that is 180 degrees out of sync with the eternal struggle to make us perfect and like G-d.

First you ask a question about “my body” – which could apply to any person. Considering semantics – if I am a steward then it is not mine and if it is my body then I am not just the steward of it. I am more connected and invested as the owner. For the point of discussion I prefer according to my understanding to think of the body I use in this life is a gift to me which I have earned in part and to which I am personally invested. Therefore the better I take care of “my body” the better the investment will be for me. I do not think my treatment of my body can possibly diminish anyone else but me.

Secondly you characterize our body as being imperfect and our spirit as being perfect. I am convinced that you have it all wrong and that the truth is in reality just the opposite. Being that our body is perfect and it is our spirit that is imperfect. Our body is perfectly designed and is without flaw in any way. It is 100% complete and perfectly designed to benefit us for all things eternal. It is a perfect fit for what our imperfect spirit needs to progress to a higher more noble understanding and enlightenment. Our perfect body is perfectly and uniquely suited for each individual spirit in order for that spirit to develop any and all that is necessary for an eternal and glorified perfect being. If there is any failure or imperfection it is not the physical body that fails to fulfill it perfect design but it is the flaw in the spirit being that has taken possession of the perfect body to learn and acquire what it needs.

My point is most important for our imperfect spirits becoming perfect. Rather than blame G-d for an imperfect body that is destroying our possibilities we should rightfully thank G-d for this perfect gift that will bless every spirit that receives their perfect opportunity. We need to realize that our body is perfect for us and a perfect blessing for our imperfect spirit that can become perfect from our perfectly designed body – perfectly for us.

The Traveler

We shouldn't be "invested and connected" with things that turn to dust. There are aspects of the body that can be made eternal by participating in the new and everlasting covenant. Upon resurrection we will receive a new body which will be as different, if not more so, as the difference between Adam and Eve's body before and after the Fall. The "perfecting" aspects related to this body come in the form of being able to forsake the body, the ability to not give into carnal desires.

[Traveler]

We shouldn't be "invested and connected" with things that turn to dust.

Not sure why you are saying this - those that thought this to be true in the pre-existance were cast out.

There are aspects of the body that can be made eternal by participating in the new and everlasting covenant. Upon resurrection we will receive a new body which will be as different, if not more so, as the difference between Adam and Eve's body before and after the Fall. The "perfecting" aspects related to this body come in the form of being able to forsake the body, the ability to not give into carnal desires.

Again I am not sure you are thinking this through. See Moses 5:11

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

By the very definition of carnal - one cannot have "seed" without carnal desire. What you may be missing is understanding carnal when corrupted and misguided in direct association with being sensual and devilish. But I contend that the desire to create life through "carnal desire" within the guidelines of marriage is sacred, holy and necessary to become "like G-d". Another term for this is the New and Everlasting Covenant.

The Traveler

[justinc]

Our intended destiny is to be (end up) perfect - thus the scripture Matt 5:48

Not hugely important, though my understanding of the verse differs slightly. Jesus here is arguing how best to follow Torah (Gods Instruction) and it goes something like this (paraphrasing):

"In the past some have said love your neighbor but hate your enemy. But you should also love your enemy. God shines sun on both good and evil people - therefore - be perfect even as God is perfect."

Jesus argues that since God shows no partiality (ie. Gods love towards humanity is not divided - it is complete) that we therefore should not either. The word perfect here can mean "complete" - which I think makes more sense since Jesus was teaching this for his disciples to implement now - not as a future ideal.

***Whoops, just saw that McLainDow already pointed this out.***

Edited December 21, 2013 by justinc

[McLainDow]

Only if you accept the Platonic philosophical idea that "perfection" must be an ultimate and unchangeable state.

So, in other words we become perfect in this sphere but, when we move on we can still progress. I get it.