A mother's conflict

[pam]

I don't think I've ever started a thread in the advice section but now I find myself doing so. It will open up more some of the personal things in my life. Perhaps I'm just trying to think aloud.

I have a son who is openly gay. He has a partner and they are in a serious relationship. Serious enough that they are now "engaged." Whatever that means in Utah as gay marriage isn't legal.

So my conflict lies in how to react to this situation. I love my son and I want him to be happy. I don't want to give the perception in any way that I'm condoning this. I'm not. I'm not sure I even feel that going to any kind of a ceremony is appropriate.

So there lies my again my conflict. Hurting my son while he is so happy and sticking to my principles of what I believe marriage should be. BTW. he is very much aware of how I feel about gay marriage.

Ughhhh...being a mother is so hard sometimes.

This is NOT a thread to debate gay marriage. If it comes to that I'll close it. It's how I can deal with the personal conflict I'm feeling.

Edited December 15, 2013 by pam

[Dravin]

Is your son open to discussion on the subject? I realize he's aware of your stance concerning same sex relationships, but do you think anything productive could come from explaining your dilemma to him (the line between motherly support of a child and condoning something you feel you shouldn't)? I'm not picturing resolution coming from such a conversation but rather mutual understanding. Fundamentally, on some level, unless one of you changes your position there will be a disconnect, but as long as he can understand why and where you are drawing your lines, and you can understand exactly what it is he may be seeking you'll both be in a better position to minimize any hurt that might arise.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

My cousin recently married his partner, and his parents are devout members. He knows how they feel. He didn't invite her to the wedding, he just called and told her they had done it. She wished him happiness. I don't think that implied that she had changed her mind about gay marriage, but it did convey her love for him, and of course we wish happiness for our children.

To me, it's a better way of life than living promiscuously. Even though it's not sanctioned by God, even though it's definitely not what we would hope for our children, it's not the very worst way they could be living.

[Vort]

I'm so sorry, Pam. I have no good advice. Love your son, I guess, and be welcoming and supportive to him personally without sanctioning his lifestyle choice. But you already knew that.

[Soulsearcher]

It is a tough situation and as much as some might think there is no easy answer. There is a lot to balance out and look at, and over the last few years i've thought on this kind of issue a lot. Two thoughts come to mind when ever i think of this situation and i'm not sure they will help but it's where i've gotten to over time.

First off, what level of respect and understanding would you or do you seek from others? Being none of us are perfect and we are all sinners, what would you want from others when it comes to your sins big or small. Even beyond that, what level of respect do you want for the choices you make from the people you love or people who's opinion matters? From my personal experience this isn't always as much of a two way street as it possibly could be. I have personally found some LDS to have certain expectations of people in their lives and yet when that expectation is turned around on them they fail the test, and no this isn't a uniquely LDS issue, just in personal experience on this specific area it's popped up quite a few times.

Second i guess is, does it really serve a higher purpose by turning this into such a big issue. No i'm not oblivious to the LDS stance or the proclamation and such, but really does pushing your child away, harming the family ties and possibly turning you back on some kind of future really serve heavenly fathers grand design that much? Will your son see heavenly fathers plans and dreams more so by having you react poorly and make him feel bad, or will he benefit more from love and an attempt at peaceful coexistence? Do missionaries do best by berating and hurting the people they reach out to or by being the example of the lessons?

He knows what you think about the situation, but is he really sure what you think of him? It's the drastic actions that speak volumes and drown out the subtle more common demonstrations of love. You can say you love him, he means a lot to you, ect ect, if it's followed by "but" or "however" anything that came before is canceled out, it's lost all meaning. If you think it's easy for him oh his side of things i can tell you it's not.

Don't focus so much on what's coming as what you want the outcome to be. Think of the message you want to send for yourself and heavenly father and try to find a way for your actions to follow through with that. You are a smart and loving woman Pam I'm sure you will find a way :)

[Quin]

Two thoughts, don't know if either will be helpful:

1)

I have 2 good friends (both gay), one of whom was LDS/born in the covenant/has very active parents.

Clearly, he's not allowed to be technically active, but he still prays/fasts/word of wisdom/studies/does genealogy research/volunteers & other acts of service/ etc.

I watch Conference at his parents' house, most of the time, with him & his boyfriend.

His parents are amaaaaaaaazing.

They have the warmest, most welcoming home.

I've known my 2 friends since before I converted (going on 10 years since I met them).

It took me about a year post conversion to really "get" how awesome his parents are, in the face of church culture.

When I asked them about it... This is a paraphrase of what they told me:

- They had a choice: condemn their son and watch him rebel against them and the church... Or figure that HF would sort things out later... With this result: in all other ways (outside of chastity), he still holds true to the church in every principle and action.

- They love B, for the person he is, and the person their son has become with him.

- They got to remain trusted advisors in their son's choice of partners, because they decided to put on "person goggles" (meaning looking at his boyfriends as people, as they would girlfriends)

- Long running family joke of which of the two of them HF is going to swap out genders.

(Actually, not long after my divorce, someone decided I'd become a man and marry both of them as women with the 132 bit. Roll. Eyes. Pshaw. No way, Jose!).

They keep it light, even though its a very serious topic, by very faithfully believing in both HF & the goodness of their son's spirit & heart. And that HF knows the fullness of all things, and will be wise & just & fair to him.

Or, as his mom says: "Either way, I may end up having to explain myself. I'm only okay with explaining loving him. If HF wants to punish me for that, I'll gladly bear it. I couldn't bear with being punished for not loving him enough."

2) In the first year of my divorce, my ex put my son through hell & misery.

Yet.

There were many times that he'd come running to me with this big grin, so very excited, about something that -in a normal world- is appalling and completely unacceptable. What I WANTED to do was to throw a fit about it. I didn't. Instead I focused on what was true: That I was very happy for my son that things were getting better for him. Because that WAS the core of what he was happy & excited about.

Sometimes, I find, that I need to take a thing and turn it on its ear, in order to see.

Q

[skippy740]

Pam,

I'm going to ask a question of technicality... to see if it makes a difference to you or not.

Would it matter if they had a same-sex marriage... or would a civil union be better to you?

Being "engaged" to have a civil union may or may not mean the same (to us) as having a 'marriage'.

Also, being a crusader against same-sex marriage, this can feel like a slap in the face... while a civil union may seem more 'acceptable'... as though they aren't choosing to add fuel and support to the LGBT political agenda.

Since same-sex marriage isn't legal yet (in Utah), they're either going to be having a civil union... or traveling to California for a same-sex marriage.

As far as the relationship goes, others have already chimed in quite well on that.

[Guest greengal]

He knows how you feel. Why say more on your view of the politics and morality of it? I say, wish them happiness, even if you have to fake it. Loook for the positive witbout eved saying technical words of approval.

[McLainDow]

I was going to simply say love your son but, your agonizing over this proves that you do. The rest is between you and your Heavenly father.

[classylady]

Pam, it's obvious you love your son. To me, that is the most important factor. I would suggest that you continue to show your love for him, which I'm sure you're already doing. I've often wondered what I would do if I one of my children told me they were gay. I don't know what to advise. Have you asked him what he wants from you? Is that even a question that should be asked? What if he wants more from you than what you can give? All I can think of is to pray, pray, pray! Which, again, I'm sure you're already doing. Attend the temple, and ask for the Lord's guidance. Inspiration will come. What would work for one family may not be the answer for you and your son. You need to receive inspiration from Heavenly Father on how He wants you to deal with this with your son and your individual situation. <hugs>

[pam]

He and I had a good talk tonight. He understands my position and I understand his. He even suggested a support group of which there is a chapter in the area that helps family members deal with the same situation I find myself in. I will probably check it out.

I think we are both in a good place right now.

So I appreciate all of the comments and thoughts.

[MarginOfError]

First, please forgive me if I open wounds. My intent is not to hurt.

My personal philosophy has been to deal with people. If I were in your position, I would try to recognize that the excitement and happiness he feels for his upcoming marriage is as real to him as was yours when you got married. Likewise, the pain that would come from a failed relationships would be just as real to him as was yours. Such pain is not something I wish on anyone, and I would do my best to make sure that I wasn't anywhere near the root of any problems that caused their relationship to fail; even if this means occasionally coaching them on how to resolve their internal disputes.

Our family members will make choices we don't support. But I believe we can honestly express our disagreement for those choices while lending support to the individuals.

You already have made clear your feelings on his relationship, and he was comfortable enough to tell you of his future plans anyway. That speaks volumes about the quality of your relationship. And I commend you for that.

Lastly, we read in the Book of Mormon that when the judgment comes, he who is happy shall be happy still, and he who is unhappy will be unhappy still (Mormon 9:14). It is my belief that our eternal happiness is strongly correlated with the degree of happiness we obtain in mortality. Your son's choices may put a limit to the peak of his eternal happiness, but if his choices here make him happy here, he will like find a similar (if limited) limit to his happiness in the eternities. Yes, it is sad that he may be choosing to place a limit on what could otherwise be an unlimited happiness, but it is still happiness.

[mnn727]

DW's sister is a Lesbian and has been in a committed relationship for longer than DW and I have been married.

We love them and treat them like any other couple.They know what we believe, but also that we love them and know we will not change them. Once the knowledge is there that they will not change, then why 'kick against the pricks' (saying taken from Acts 26:14)

[Lilac]

He knows how you feel and he shared his joy anyway.

That tells me he feels unconditionally loved. I think you did a good job as a mother!

I would be as supportive as I possibly could.

You will NEVER regret loving your son.

You will regret a damaged and broken relationship with your child. It will haunt you forever.

This gay issue is complex. We don't have the answers.

Sorting out your son's issues is Heavenly Father's job.

Loving him is your job.

[Guest]

I don't think I've ever started a thread in the advice section but now I find myself doing so. It will open up more some of the personal things in my life. Perhaps I'm just trying to think aloud.

I have a son who is openly gay. He has a partner and they are in a serious relationship. Serious enough that they are now "engaged." Whatever that means in Utah as gay marriage isn't legal.

So my conflict lies in how to react to this situation. I love my son and I want him to be happy. I don't want to give the perception in any way that I'm condoning this. I'm not. I'm not sure I even feel that going to any kind of a ceremony is appropriate.

So there lies my again my conflict. Hurting my son while he is so happy and sticking to my principles of what I believe marriage should be. BTW. he is very much aware of how I feel about gay marriage.

Ughhhh...being a mother is so hard sometimes.

This is NOT a thread to debate gay marriage. If it comes to that I'll close it. It's how I can deal with the personal conflict I'm feeling.

I think I can relate this to my situation so I'm going to state my opinion from the other side of the coin. My parents did not talk to me for years for marrying outside of the Catholic Church. It hurt them deeply. And I knew it will but I truly felt it was the right thing for me to do so I eloped. My mom's house have blown-up picture frames of all my siblings' weddings except mine.

I don't begrudge her for it though. I really don't. I know my mother was hurt because she loves me very very much. I would have been confused if she smiled through the whole thing... it will make me wonder if she cared.

But, I also know my mother very well. And I know eventually, she will get over the hurt and I can just be patient and wait her out. Especially if I don't get bullheaded and disown her back. She still sends gifts to the Catholic cloistered nuns to pray for my soul every week. It makes me smile with fondness that my mother is so devout in her faith and that she loves me so much she fears for my soul.

Dunno if this is going to help. What I'm really trying to say is - be yourself. Do what the Light of Christ in you directs you to do. Don't force acceptance when you don't feel it is right. Your son loves you, he will understand.

[Guest]

Aaaanndd... pshawww... Soul Searcher is here. It's wierd how Soul only chimes in on gay-related things. Wazzup with that, Soul? :)

[NeuroTypical]

I'm late to the advice thread, but here's my advice: Be like the mormon in this story.

LDS Living - How I Became Friends with a Conference Protester

[yjacket]

I'm late, but I believe it is completely possible to love without approving or condoning. Hopefully what I say isn't taken the wrong way; but I believe parents in today's society have become extremely soft and parenting has turned into what does a parent need to do to make their children feel good rather than teaching them how to be independent individuals.

Having said that, when someone is in my house they abide by my rules. I have lots of rules in my house, I won't allow smokers inside my house, toys are picked up, no swearing, no drinking, etc. My rules don't have anything to do with love, they are just simply a reflection of the type of life that I choose to live. While someone is a guest in my house, I expect them to abide by those rules. When someone is outside my house, I have no control over their behavior.

The tactics that I use in order to enforce my rules change as my children grow and the amount of freedom that they have to make their own choices increase within the sandbox that I establish for them. You let them make the mistakes you want them to make.

Eventually, when they are old enough to be independent they go off and make their own house with their own rules. Hopefully, I have taught them well enough that they make good decisions, but I'm sure they will make plenty of decisions I will not agree with-however that is their business.

If a child of mine chooses a lifestyle that I firmly believe is wrong and will not bring them happiness, I'm sure as junk not going to be wishing them well. I wish you all the happiness smoking 10 packs a cigarettes a day!! ?? That makes no sense to me. I would express my sadness in their decision to choose a lifestyle that in my opinion will not bring happiness. More specifically with 2 homosexuals, they will never have the experience of creating a child together. The birth of my children are some of my most precious memories-no matter the science or technology that experience will not happen for them.

But it is ultimately their decision, they have to live with the consequences of their choices and I will always love them, regardless.

However, if one of my children chooses a deviant path, while they are in my house they will live by my rules. I wouldn't allow someone to smoke in my house and I wouldn't allow someone's homosexual partner in my house and I'm not going to be chatty with the partner. Sure I'll talk to my kid on the phone, invite him in for Christmas etc but no partner. If he doesn't like it-tough.

Those are just the rules; love doesn't have anything to do with it.

[Leah]

I'm late, but I believe it is completely possible to love without approving or condoning. Hopefully what I say isn't taken the wrong way; but I believe parents in today's society have become extremely soft and parenting has turned into what does a parent need to do to make their children feel good rather than teaching them how to be independent individuals.

Having said that, when someone is in my house they abide by my rules. I have lots of rules in my house, I won't allow smokers inside my house, toys are picked up, no swearing, no drinking, etc. My rules don't have anything to do with love, they are just simply a reflection of the type of life that I choose to live. While someone is a guest in my house, I expect them to abide by those rules. When someone is outside my house, I have no control over their behavior.

The tactics that I use in order to enforce my rules change as my children grow and the amount of freedom that they have to make their own choices increase within the sandbox that I establish for them. You let them make the mistakes you want them to make.

Eventually, when they are old enough to be independent they go off and make their own house with their own rules. Hopefully, I have taught them well enough that they make good decisions, but I'm sure they will make plenty of decisions I will not agree with-however that is their business.

If a child of mine chooses a lifestyle that I firmly believe is wrong and will not bring them happiness, I'm sure as junk not going to be wishing them well. I wish you all the happiness smoking 10 packs a cigarettes a day!! ?? That makes no sense to me. I would express my sadness in their decision to choose a lifestyle that in my opinion will not bring happiness. More specifically with 2 homosexuals, they will never have the experience of creating a child together. The birth of my children are some of my most precious memories-no matter the science or technology that experience will not happen for them.

But it is ultimately their decision, they have to live with the consequences of their choices and I will always love them, regardless.

However, if one of my children chooses a deviant path, while they are in my house they will live by my rules. I wouldn't allow someone to smoke in my house and I wouldn't allow someone's homosexual partner in my house and I'm not going to be chatty with the partner. Sure I'll talk to my kid on the phone, invite him in for Christmas etc but no partner. If he doesn't like it-tough.

Those are just the rules; love doesn't have anything to do with it.

I can't quite figure out what rule you're enforcing.

You refer to being a homosexual as a "deviant path" but exactly what rule is being enforced by keeping the partner out and shunning him? You are allowing your son in your home, so you aren't shunning all homosexuals. Do you shun only partners of your children? Or do you shun all homosexuals? Do you have a rule of no gays being allowed in your house and only make an exception for your son?

I would not shun my child for being gay and I see nothing to be gained by shunning anyone else for being gay.

[pam]

Well I happen to really like his partner. He's a great guy and has always been extremely polite and courteous to me.

I would never shun him or his partner from our family Christmas festivities. While I may not agree with the lifestyle he has chosen, I am never going to put my son in a position of having to choose between him and me. That's just not fair to him.

My son and I have come to a really good understanding between us. I feel both of us are in a good place right now. I love him tremendously.

[yjacket]

I can't quite figure out what rule you're enforcing.

You refer to being a homosexual as a "deviant path" but exactly what rule is being enforced by keeping the partner out and shunning him? You are allowing your son in your home, so you aren't shunning all homosexuals. Do you shun only partners of your children? Or do you shun all homosexuals? Do you have a rule of no gays being allowed in your house and only make an exception for your son?

I would not shun my child for being gay and I see nothing to be gained by shunning anyone else for being gay.

I'm not shunning my child, I'm telling him he can't bring his behavior into my house; big difference. If he wants to have a partner, his choice. I won't tell him how to live is life outside of the confines of my house.

When I'm at Christmas dinner, I don't particularly care to hear John telling Mike "pass the peas, honey". I don't particularly care to have John and Mike sleeping together in one of my bedrooms. I don't particularly care to see John with his arm around Mike sitting on a couch together. I don't particularly care to see 2 homosexuals engaging in heterosexual behavior.

No there is no exception to the rule. I don't watch TV shows or movies that show that type of behavior, to me it is repulsive. Watching 2 guys hug and kiss . . . I just don't need to see that in my life.

Now if John wants to bring Mike into my house and they don't exhibit any behavior that I find repulsive I might let them in; but the moment that it reaches a level that I find repulsive their are gone.

However anyone else wants to deal with it is totally fine with me; if pam feels comfortable around them great, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Someone might call me a "homophobe" or some junk like that; when I bet dollars to donuts I'm the first one in line to defend their individual rights. Sorry pam I'm breaking your marriage rule :-(, but I think the government should stay out of marriage and if John and Mike want to get some pastor to declare them man and man, great go for it. I really don't care.

I think people should be able to destroy their own life however they please (do drugs, engage in risky behavior, smoke, drink, get drunk, etc.), but for me and my house-it ain't happening.

Edited December 20, 2013 by yjacket

[Guest]

Well I happen to really like his partner. He's a great guy and has always been extremely polite and courteous to me.

I would never shun him or his partner from our family Christmas festivities. While I may not agree with the lifestyle he has chosen, I am never going to put my son in a position of having to choose between him and me. That's just not fair to him.

I'm not shunning my child, I'm telling him he can't bring his behavior into my house; big difference. If he wants to have a partner, his choice. I won't tell him how to live is life outside of the confines of my house.

When I'm at Christmas dinner, I don't particularly care to hear John telling Mike "pass the peas, honey". I don't particularly care to have John and Mike sleeping together in one of my bedrooms. I don't particularly care to see John with his arm around Mike sitting on a couch together. I don't particularly care to see 2 homosexuals engaging in heterosexual behavior.

I'm with Pam and yjacket here. My husband's best friend is gay and is living with his partner. We don't shun them, he's still my husband's best friend. But, they both know what we think about homosexual relationships. Just like my friends/family who are living a married life without marriage, they sleep in separate rooms. But there's a slight difference - my heterosexual friends can do the lovey stuff that boyfriends/girlfriends do in my home. My gay friends can't. My husband would ask them to leave if they do that. But, thankfully, we didn't have to tell them the house rules. They know my husband doesn't like it and so they just don't do it. They don't even do it when they're hanging out with my husband somewhere else just to keep my husband comfortable (he doesn't insist on it, of course, but appreciates the effort tremendously). But, when we go to their house, they do the lovey stuff. The interesting thing is, if we're at their house with my kids, they don't do it. We never told them, nor expected them to act differently in their own home with my children. My kids know they're a gay couple and what that means. When they attended my sons' baptisms, we introduced them as a couple (This is Mr. Anatess' best friend and his partner...) because that's how they happen to be related to us. But nobody would have suspected they were a couple because they never did something that would make people think they're a couple. Although the partner is so effiminate a lot of people assume he's gay. My friend is not effiminate though, so it was a shock to my husband when he found out (after over 10 years of being best friends) that he is.

These things can get sooo tricky. But, if everybody just deals with each other with respect, it all works out.

Edited December 20, 2013 by anatess

[Backroads]

Well I happen to really like his partner. He's a great guy and has always been extremely polite and courteous to me.

I would never shun him or his partner from our family Christmas festivities. While I may not agree with the lifestyle he has chosen, I am never going to put my son in a position of having to choose between him and me. That's just not fair to him.

My son and I have come to a really good understanding between us. I feel both of us are in a good place right now. I love him tremendously.

I'm guessing the two of you just needed that good talk so there weren't those little doubts of "what is the other thinking" in your minds. You seem to be an excellent mom.