Money "too Important To The Mormons?"

[sixpacktr]

Money is just too important in 'the one and only true church'.

Hey Shanstress,

I have been thinking about your line in another thread for a couple of days, wondering why you think this.

I know that it has been stated that tithing has absolutely nothing to do with money.

I guess I'd like your input (or the input of others) of why you think this?

I'll put my $0.02 worth in...

I have yet to have a Bishop or Branch President or Stake President or even my folks demand that I pay tithes and offerings or I couldn't go to church, partake of the sacrament, or any other activity in my ward/branch/stake. True, I am not allowed in the temple if I don't pay a full tithe, but so what? My membership in the church was not in jeopardy, which is kind of what the thrust of your argument was, if I interpreted it right.

I have yet to see any of the Prophets, Apostles, or any other GA, come on TV and beg for money. Or come to a Stake Conference and beg for money. Or offer "prayer rugs", "healing rags" or some other such thing in exchange for money. I have yet to see someone promise that if I pay a tithe on my debt and send it to SLC that my debt would be gone in 30 days. We don't pass around a collection plate so that everyone can see how much I contributed (or didn't contribute) to the welfare of my Bishop, which opens us up to the judgement of others (all of our contributions are known by 3 people: the donor, a member of the Bishopric, and the financial clerk. Did it for several years, and never remembered who gave how much...).

I know that in other churches there isn't a lot asked of the members other than to show up on Sunday and possibly Wednesday and then to contribute money. Ours gives out callings and asks a heck of a lot more.

I guess I can sum it up best with a quote by the Prophet Joseph Smith, in which he said "a religion that doesn't require the sacrifice of all things cannot generate the faith necessary for the saints to attain the CK" (paraphrased and butchered, I'm sure but the gist is correct).

The law of tithing, just like any of the other commandments, including "love one another", is dependent upon our willingness to be obedient. Obedience is a God-like trait. How can I look my HF in the face and claim to love him if I withheld my tithes and offerings because of a lack of faith?

Anyway, I'd appreciate your comments. And this isn't a poke. I'm just curious as to your reasoning for this claim...

[Guest Yediyd]

The true test of ones religion is the type of person they become as a result of it.

Malachi chapter 3 in the Old testiment is very clear about the law of tithing. And just in case someone tries to point out that it was OLD Testiment law...let us not forget Anninias and Saphira whom God dropped dead in front of the whole congragation because they lied to Paul about their tithe and in so doing...also lied to God in the face of his church.

I'm not sure of the exect location of that story...maybe Acts?...but I KNOW it is in the New Testiment.

[shanstress70]

Six: "I have yet to have a Bishop or Branch President or Stake President or even my folks demand that I pay tithes and offerings or I couldn't go to church, partake of the sacrament, or any other activity in my ward/branch/stake. True, I am not allowed in the temple if I don't pay a full tithe, but so what? My membership in the church was not in jeopardy, which is kind of what the thrust of your argument was, if I interpreted it right."

So what if you're not allowed in the temple??? That is a huge consequence, based on your beliefs. And this is exactly what my argument was about... that you cannot be a part of all your temple rituals if you do not pay a full tithe. This is not trivial... it means you cannot go to your child's wedding if you aren't in good standing with your tithing. How heartbreaking would that be?

Six: "I have yet to see any of the Prophets, Apostles, or any other GA, come on TV and beg for money. Or come to a Stake Conference and beg for money. Or offer "prayer rugs", "healing rags" or some other such thing in exchange for money. I have yet to see someone promise that if I pay a tithe on my debt and send it to SLC that my debt would be gone in 30 days. We don't pass around a collection plate so that everyone can see how much I contributed (or didn't contribute) to the welfare of my Bishop, which opens us up to the judgement of others (all of our contributions are known by 3 people: the donor, a member of the Bishopric, and the financial clerk."

I think televangelists are despicable. Just because they do things that could appear to be worse than you guys do, does that mean that you guys are off the hook? What I donate should be between me and God. I am mature enough to have the ability to be honest in my dealings with God without someone checking behind me... no fallible human necessary. And my church does pass the plate, but we use envelopes, so no one knows how much each member of the congregation is putting in. And for those who don't pay tithing, well that's between them and God, but they are still allowed and welcome to join in all the activities that we partake in. It's not for man to restrict these things.

Six: "The law of tithing, just like any of the other commandments, including "love one another", is dependent upon our willingness to be obedient. Obedience is a God-like trait. How can I look my HF in the face and claim to love him if I withheld my tithes and offerings because of a lack of faith?"

Why do some of you think that I don't understand the principle of tithing? I do understand it and I think it's very important. But I can do so without someone holding my hand. For the tenth or so time, what I was saying in the other thread is that I was against Mamacat having to pay tithing on her child's money.

[sixpacktr]

Shanstress,

No, I think you do believe in tithing, and I know why you said what you did. But when you stated that we held money too dear for the only true and living church, I had to ask.

As for the temple, of course it is a big deal. It is meant to be a big deal. But I look at it as the fringe benefits for being a member. It is important, and in fact necessary for our salvation, as I know you know we believe, but no one's church membership is in jeopardy if they don't qualify to go to the temple. It isn't a right, but it is a priviledge (trite, I know, but still true).

As for "someone checking behind you", again, maybe I've had wonderful Bishops/BPs in the past, but not once, not EVER, did they ask for my tax returns to be sure I paid 10% and wasn't lying to get my TR. All that is asked is "are you a full tithe payer?" If I am, I answer yes. If I'm not, I can still answer yes (I'd be lying, but still...) and get a TR. Then it is between me and the Lord, and personally, I'd rather be honest and answer no if I'm not paying a full tithe. So, in reality, it is between you and the Lord. He knows if you are a full tithe payer or not.

FWIW...

[tiancum]

Why do some of you think that I don't understand the principle of tithing? I do understand it and I think it's very important. But I can do so without someone holding my hand. For the tenth or so time, what I was saying in the other thread is that I was against Mamacat having to pay tithing on her child's money.

The church never said that. Sorry. They ASK that we pay on our increase. THAT is the part that is between us and the Lord. We are only asked if we pay a full tithe. How we answer is according to our own conscience, and what God tells the individual. (Bishops, etc are counceled NOT to interpret what increase means.) I knew a woman whose husband was nonmember, and all the income was his. She payed NO tithing because the money wasnt hers. When the Bishop asked her if she payed a full tithe she said yes. She goes to the temple.

Now, as for money being too important to the LDS. YOU have me there. I believe it is to some of us. Just like it is to some people of other religions. Some of us realize that our money isn't ours at all, but all comes from the Lord. Yet some of us are still under the mistaken impression that we deserve the money we have, and are not ALL beggars before God. It is really a shame.

I understand your concerns, but they are founded on a partial truth.

[a-train]

A commonly unknown fact about the LDS Temple is that it is akin to a giant baptismal font. There is but one purpose in entering therein: to participate in covenant making ordinances of the gospel. One of the covenants made in the ordinances of the temple is that of 'tithing' (by this we are referring to all offerings in the Church, not just the Mosaic Law definition). Like baptism, no individual is forced to enter into the ordinance or the covenant therein. It can only be done willingly.

An interview is conducted before baptism and before temple ordinances to make absolutely certain that the individual intent to take on such ordinances is doing so of their own free will and choice with a knowledge of what they are proceeding to engage. It is further brought to the attention of the individual that if they are not ready to take upon themselves such covenants that they should pursue further preparations before entering therein.

I have not seen any great line of people desirous to enter into the temple and engage these covenants so they can break them and heap to themselves damnation. However, there are some that do not take the covenants seriously, or seem to misunderstand that they are accountable for any covenants they have entered into.

Those that cannot abide the covenant of tithing should not be entering into the covenant. Is this illogical?

Would our Bishop be blessing us or cursing us in sending us into the temple knowing we cannot and are not abiding the covenants thereof?

I personally, could not in good conscience send my fellow beings into such ruin.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

And for those who don't pay tithing, well that's between them and God, but they are still allowed and welcome to join in all the activities that we partake in. It's not for man to restrict these things.

Man doesn't restrict these things. The Lord dictates who may or may not enter his holy house. It is up to God's servants to administer these standards. That's all.

[prisonchaplain]

I wish people would give more to their churches, not less.

It is not unreasonable to ask those who wish to be considered faithful members to support the gospel--including with their finance.

This can be done through "tithe settlements," "gift boxes," or "passing the plate."

I know that some LDS believe that the Protestant practice of passing the plate, and of ministers sharing the needs of the church from the pulpit, and making financial pleas for certain projects is somehow unbecoming, crass, or commercial. I see such "campaigns" in the Bible. So, imho, the only approach that is crass is one in which the faithful give, predominantly out of guilt or pressure. Then again, quite often, such feelings come from one's heart, not from the leadership.

[a-train]

Oh and those LDS who don't like such talk from the pulpit are only accustomed to our modern blessed situation. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, many of the leaders in more difficult times mentioned specifically needs that were required for the construction of temples and other buildings, the printing of books, the funding of missionary efforts and so forth.

A more recent sermon I heard from a Kansas City stake president in a stake conference contained this statement:

'It is not proper for me to go into specific numbers or percentages to demonstrate the level of obedience this stake has for the law of tithing. But I will say this: If everyone in this meeting today who is not a full tithe payer were to turn to a pillar of dust, we don't have enough vacuum bags in the janitor's closet to clean up the mess.'

Many were unhappy with this statement, many laughed and enjoyed it, I was among those who both laughed and mourned.

What was interesting is how some focused on the 'mess' and others focused on the lack of vacuum bags. It was an extremely well thought statement I think.

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

That was so funny that I called up my Bishop and read it to him!

[pam]

Okay here is a definition of "tithing" from the First Presidency that I got from lds.org.

The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this”

When I discussed with my Bishop about whether I should be paying tithing on child support he told me the same thing that this statement says. Child support was not considered "income" therefore I would not be required (unless I chose to) to pay tithing against it.

[Palerider]

Okay here is a definition of "tithing" from the First Presidency that I got from lds.org.

The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this”

When I discussed with my Bishop about whether I should be paying tithing on child support he told me the same thing that this statement says. Child support was not considered "income" therefore I would not be required (unless I chose to) to pay tithing against it.

you are exactly correct.......I mentioned in another post that someone I know pays on their child support....no one told them they had to....they chose to do that.....

[sixpacktr]

Oh and those LDS who don't like such talk from the pulpit are only accustomed to our modern blessed situation. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, many of the leaders in more difficult times mentioned specifically needs that were required for the construction of temples and other buildings, the printing of books, the funding of missionary efforts and so forth.

A more recent sermon I heard from a Kansas City stake president in a stake conference contained this statement:

'It is not proper for me to go into specific numbers or percentages to demonstrate the level of obedience this stake has for the law of tithing. But I will say this: If everyone in this meeting today who is not a full tithe payer were to turn to a pillar of dust, we don't have enough vacuum bags in the janitor's closet to clean up the mess.'

Many were unhappy with this statement, many laughed and enjoyed it, I was among those who both laughed and mourned.

What was interesting is how some focused on the 'mess' and others focused on the lack of vacuum bags. It was an extremely well thought statement I think.

-a-train

a-train,

I really liked that. And your SP was acting in his calling, as a watchman on the tower. It is interesting the responses that you said were evident.

Like Joseph said, I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves. If they choose not to do it, they won't be forced to. But they will miss out on blessings and protections...

[Traveler]

I am quite sure that anyone that would deny payment of or encourage or belittle the widow to not tithe or offer her mite does not understand the principle of tithing and offerings.

The Traveler

[a-train]

Traveler,

AMEN!

-a-train

[pushka]

Perhaps it's time that the LDS church made clear it's 'rules' on what is considered eligible for tithing and what isn't, so that different Bishops do not deal with tithing issues such as Mamacat's in different ways.

From the 2 posts here concerning tithing and child support, it appears that the Bishops concerned did not consider child support to be eligible to tithe upon, therefore it seems unfair that Mamacat should be prevented from having a TR if she choses not to tithe on her child support.

[pam]

Perhaps it's time that the LDS church made clear it's 'rules' on what is considered eligible for tithing and what isn't, so that different Bishops do not deal with tithing issues such as Mamacat's in different ways.

From the 2 posts here concerning tithing and child support, it appears that the Bishops concerned did not consider child support to be eligible to tithe upon, therefore it seems unfair that Mamacat should be prevented from having a TR if she choses not to tithe on her child support.

Just so you are aware....Palerider who earlier posted about child support and tithing is a former two time Bishop/Branch President. I trust what he says about issues such as this.

[Guest MrsS]

Perhaps it's time that the LDS church made clear it's 'rules' on what is considered eligible for tithing and what isn't, so that different Bishops do not deal with tithing issues such as Mamacat's in different ways.

From the 2 posts here concerning tithing and child support, it appears that the Bishops concerned did not consider child support to be eligible to tithe upon, therefore it seems unfair that Mamacat should be prevented from having a TR if she choses not to tithe on her child support.

How much clearer can this quote that Pam gave us be???????

Okay here is a definition of "tithing" from the First Presidency that I got from lds.org.

The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this”

Emphasis mine.

[Annabelli]

Tithing in the LDS Church is an open policy and not made secret or private. Anyone who is interested in the Church and has studied with the Missionaries will quickly learn about The Law of Tithing and many other church related issues in their initial meetings.

You will not find this with any other religious organization. The cost to become an adult member in most of those other religious organizations require an initial membership fee which may equal or exceed $1,500 and pledges of 8,000 to 10,000 a year. People who attend such religious organizations and have never paid them a penny are simply not members. Just because you attend their services for 20 or 30 years does not make you a member.

Tithing in the LDS Church is 10% of your income. Gasoline may rise by 200% and utilities may be increased 50% but your tithing in the LDS Church will always be 10%.

Just imagine people paying 5 cents for a loaf of bread in 1931. Their tithing was 10%. You now pay around $2 for a loaf of bread but your tithing is still 10%.

LDS Church members who were working for Enron Corp. and lost everything were not kicked out of the Church. The LDS Church fed, sheltered and clothed the members until they found work.

You may think of the LDS Church simply as Old Faithful plugging along at 10%. And you would be right.

[pushka]

I'm sorry if my suggestion offended anybody, and I was aware of the quote about what tithing is...only I read in either this thread or another that Mamacat's Bishop had told her she couldn't have a TR if she chose not to pay tithing on her child support, but other posters said their Bishops had allowed them to not pay on their child support, and somebody said it was the decision of individual Bishops whether or not to tithe on child support...my suggestion was only that all Bishops have the same policy as one another, so that discrepancies like Mamacats do not occur...as everybody would know whether or not child support was classed as increase and therefore eligible to be tithed upon.

I wasn't criticizing anyone, I was just making a suggestion based upon the previous posts I'd read. Sorry!!

[pam]

Perhaps it's time that the LDS church made clear it's 'rules' on what is considered eligible for tithing and what isn't, so that different Bishops do not deal with tithing issues such as Mamacat's in different ways.

From the 2 posts here concerning tithing and child support, it appears that the Bishops concerned did not consider child support to be eligible to tithe upon, therefore it seems unfair that Mamacat should be prevented from having a TR if she choses not to tithe on her child support.

I understand what you are saying and would agree with you on Mamacat's circumstances. However, I still find it very confusing that that is really an issue. I've been to many tithing settlements and they have never asked me...Did you pay on your child support, did you pay on that gift from your sister of money. The question has always been...did you pay a full and honest tithe during the year. If there was something that I should have paid tithing on and I didn't but said yes...that's my cross to bear. But I've never been asked about specific monies.

[orrinjelo]

Why do we call it tithing anyway? 'Tithe' is a strange translation for the word (as I don't understand where it comes from.) In German, at least, it clearly says the TENTH (Zehnte) in place of the word tithes...

[Guest MrsS]

oops- wrong post

[CrimsonKairos]

Why do we call it tithing anyway?

Here are the various Hebrew words that are translated simply as "tithe" in the Old Testament.

Ma'aser

asar

Here are the various Greek words translated as "tithe" in the New Testament.

Apodekatoo

Dekate

Why translate as "tithe" when it means "tenth?" Here are a few guesses:

1.) It's easier to say "tithing" than "tenthing" (which sounds like someone with a lisp trying to pronounce "tensing" ).

2.) It makes scriptures sound more impressive...imagine if we had this: "For he that tenths shall not be burned at the Lord's coming." Doesn't this sound much better: "For he that tithes shall not be burned at the Lord's coming." B)