Mormon Porn Use Maybe Not As High as Previously Reported

[Wingnut]

Thank you, Finrock.

[slamjet]

...

 

I am saying that the treatment I am prescribing (repentance through the Atonement) is sufficient whether the illness is sex or whether the illness is lack of control. Either way, I'm going with the same tonic.

...

 

It seems you have the same approach to addiction as most everyone else who has not experienced this first or second hand and that is just saying that repentance is all that's needed.  It's much more complicated than that.  The repentance process includes self discovery so that the addiction can be overcome, thus, the 12 step program.  As a part of that, therapy and even medication may be in the mix.  Elder Hollands talk titled "Like a Broken Vessel" gives a pretty good primer about this.  One quote from that talk is:

 

"...a crater in the mind so deep that no one can responsibly suggest it would surely go away if those victims would just square their shoulders and think more positively—though I am a vigorous advocate of square shoulders and positive thinking!"

 

Pres. Ballard talked about repentance from addiction in his talk "O That Cunning Plan of the Evil One."  His answer is that to start, fervent prayer is needed.  But there is a need to go through the process whether it's with counseling with the Bishop or a therapist.

 

For myself, I would not have been able to go through the repentance process if I didn't have medication that helped me be able to think clearly.  So please don't just stay with the "prayer and the Atonement" is the answer.  It is, but for someone starting out, they need to get to that place where they can make the Atonement work for them.  And that takes a lot of work.  Sometimes even stepping away from the church until they can get their bearings straight (as it was for me when I was ex'd).

 

I believe that's where the statement of you not having empathy for the afflicted is coming from; the overly-simplified answer of repent will fix everything and that we've been taught since our primary days.  Life is more complicated than that and while you are correct that repentance is a very necessary ingredient, there are other ingredients that are needed.  The first ingredient being an acknowledgement and confession that a persons life has become insane and unmanageable, the second is being willing to let God take control and their sins and third, letting him do just that.  And that just for starters.  It's not easy to immediately turn to the Atonement when one is in the throws of addiction.

[estradling75]

Not everyone that drinks alcohol is an an alcoholic... although some are

 

Not everyone that consumes porn is a sex addict... although some are

 

However the church taught answer to both is zero, none, don't do it.  It also teaches that we can recover if we mess up the through the atonement of Christ.  How we go about helping someone apply the atonement and what people need to effectively apply the atonement is going to vary quite a bit.  And that is were it appears this discussion is all over the place.  People are giving answers that can work depending on the situation and don't work in different cases.

 

We just need to understand that when it comes to applying the atonement the details must be handed according to the individual situations. 

[The Folk Prophet]

It seems you have the same approach to addiction as most everyone else who has not experienced this first or second hand and that is just saying that repentance is all that's needed.  It's much more complicated than that.  The repentance process includes self discovery so that the addiction can be overcome, thus, the 12 step program.  As a part of that, therapy and even medication may be in the mix.  Elder Hollands talk titled "Like a Broken Vessel" gives a pretty good primer about this.  One quote from that talk is:

 

"...a crater in the mind so deep that no one can responsibly suggest it would surely go away if those victims would just square their shoulders and think more positively—though I am a vigorous advocate of square shoulders and positive thinking!"

 

Pres. Ballard talked about repentance from addiction in his talk "O That Cunning Plan of the Evil One."  His answer is that to start, fervent prayer is needed.  But there is a need to go through the process whether it's with counseling with the Bishop or a therapist.

 

For myself, I would not have been able to go through the repentance process if I didn't have medication that helped me be able to think clearly.  So please don't just stay with the "prayer and the Atonement" is the answer.  It is, but for someone starting out, they need to get to that place where they can make the Atonement work for them.  And that takes a lot of work.  Sometimes even stepping away from the church until they can get their bearings straight (as it was for me when I was ex'd).

 

I believe that's where the statement of you not having empathy for the afflicted is coming from; the overly-simplified answer of repent will fix everything and that we've been taught since our primary days.  Life is more complicated than that and while you are correct that repentance is a very necessary ingredient, there are other ingredients that are needed.  The first ingredient being an acknowledgement and confession that a persons life has become insane and unmanageable, the second is being willing to let God take control and their sins and third, letting him do just that.  And that just for starters.  It's not easy to immediately turn to the Atonement when one is in the throws of addiction.

 

Once again, you are reading things into what I have said that I have not.

 

I have never advocated staying away from therapy, medicines, or that simple positive thinking is the answer. You're taking chips on your shoulder and plugin them in. I have not said anything close to this. I believe very strongly that repentance must need utilize realistic efforts to change. A statement that repentance is a sufficient tonic does not diminish any of what is needed to truly change. You are presuming meaning in what I said that is simply not there. I know full well that one does not simply have a prayer and -- MAGIC -- no more porn addiction! I challenge you to find a statement by me anywhere that claims prayer is all that is needed. Stop making up what I said and then criticizing it.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon The Folk Prophet. I hope you are having a good day! :)

 

I find it humorous that special pleading is used in order to claim there's a problem of others using special pleading. It goes hand-in-hand with judging others to be judgmental and irrational responses to perceived irrational responses.

 

I am going to continue to be blunt and forthright with my expressions. Please know that regardless of what you might think nothing in this post is said with vitriol or anger. I only want to be absolutely upfront, clear, and honest with my expressions.

 

I don't understand what is humorous. There is no special pleading in my experiences. I'm telling you what is a reality. You can ignore that reality and speak in abstracts and in theoretical realms but that simply reinforces that fact that you are ignorant on this subject matter. It is just a truth that your posts reveal that you don't know what you are talking about in this particular case.

 

You assesments thus far are wrong. This isn't about making excuses or somehow making light of sin or minimizing sin. This is about describing real situations, real feelings, and the actuality of people's lives. Your response is irrational because you don't know what you are saying because whether intentionally or out of ignorant pride you are ignoring the reality of those who have real experiences. Your abstract and theoretical platitudes just do not apply in most cases when dealing with pornography addiction. You have had several people witness to you of what the reality is yet you don't want to accept that reality. The truth be told I am not even certain what your contention is or what it is that you find objectable with what is being said.

 

If you are truly interested in helping those who struggle with pornography addiction you need to take the time to understand what the reality is. Go attend an addiction recovery session. Listen to those who are struggling with these things. Listen to those who have found help and who are now free from the addiction. Learn to empathize with them and realize that there is more to this struggle than what is commonly understood.

 

The answer is the Atonement; of course. I know this. I'll bet most members who struggle with addictions understand this; at least intellectually. I never blamed anyone for my actions. I never have made excuses for my sins. But I knew that the assumptions made by many members about why I was doing what I was doing were wrong. I was also ignorant about myself and about the mercy and love of God and so I judged myself more harshly than I should have. I blamed myself for things that I was not justified in blaming myself for. In the end it was not about sex. I was not a sexual pervert. I was not a sicko. The things I have written are actual reality that I experienced. It isn't theory. It isn't abstract. I know what I am talking about.

 

Generalized statements and declarations (even if it is scripture) without a deep understanding of the reality of people's lives in most cases are not helpful. When someone knows this and when this is being declared to them by those who are struggling addicts and yet they persist in making these types declarations and judgments, it is wrong. It becomes a matter of pride and ego for the one declaring the platitudes at that point. This doesn't justify the pornography addict at all, but it does condemn the one who is making unrighteous judgments, assumptions, and persisting in advocating and applying to people a falsehood or lie.

 

So, I don't know why you are contending against my experiences. It is an absolute truth that if you place pornography users in to a special class of sinners and feel inclined to tell them they are covenant breakers yet you wouldn't generally do that for someone who is not showing empathy, for instance (or any other so called "small sins"), it is special pleading. It is applying a double standard. This is true because both individuals are covenant breakers, sinners, and will not be allowed to enter the Celestial Kingdom unless they repent. You are applying a double standard and thus making an unrighteous judgement that is not helpful, uplifting, or beneficial. And these types of attitudes and judgments only gratify our own pride and egos.

 

The best way to help the addict is to become educated as to what drives most peoples addictions and to do away with unfounded assumptions, fears, and prejudices. It is a moral imperative for disciples of Christ to do this. Then you need to be empathetic and not treat them as a special class of sinners. Most addicts will not be able to overcome their addiction by only hearing that they need to repent and that they need to apply the atonement. In most cases they will need help in addressing the underlying issues that are feeding the addiction. This will quite often require help through therapy or attending an addiction recovery program where they can have people who understand where they are coming and who will help them to understand what is driving their addiction. In most cases they will need to have their self-esteem built back up so they no longer hate themselves. They will need people who will help them to understand that God loves them regardless of their sins and that He is ready to forgive them and to sustain them. They will need help in finding ways to cope with anxiety, stress, or any number of other pshychological concerns. You can have the best of intentions and be sincere yet be governed by ignorance and prejudice. This is not a moral fault on its own. It is a fault, however, to be made aware of your ignorance and prejudice but then persist in that ignorance and prejudice. At that point you have crossed in to the realm of unrighteous judgment and you are no longer justified.

 

-Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

Hi Finrock,

 

I am sorry that you feel this way about me. I have, for the most part, very much respected your posts in the past. I find it confusing and hurtful to have you railing against me so vehemently.

 

In point of fact I am not having a good day at all because people like you keep throwing out accusations and telling me how prideful and arrogant I am and demanding that I am exercising unrighteous dominion. The things I have actually been saying are ignored in favor of clinging to angry and hurtful attacks against me.

 

And for what is all the accusation being thrown?

 

Me: Pornography is a sin. It is a serious thing. Usage of it is breaking a covenant. It is prurient in nature. Those involved should turn to Christ. 

 

A few others: Infuriating! Hypocrisy! Unrighteous dominion! How dare you?! You don't know what you're talking about! You're ignorant!

 

Yeah. That really makes my day.

[Windseeker]

Perhaps there ought to be a difference in how we handle the sin vs. the sinner. The example was set by the Savior.

Reminds me of my father chewing me out thru his tears after I took a fall out of tree and was pierced by a bunch of fresh punji sticks he created after clearing an area of saplings. We all look back and laugh now at my father’s reaction. He managed to carry my punctured and bloody body all the way back up to the house. Yelling at me perhaps provided much needed oxygen to get me somewhere he could attend my wounds, but it was pointless because the time of warning was past.

 

Church is a place where we both receive warnings and seek healing. I think it's important for all to keep that in mind, both those who warn, those warned and those past warning who are caught in the snares and who seek forgiveness and healing.

 

As someone who still struggles with this, I take no offense with what Folk Prophet has stated. He is right it's a serious thing and it's breaking covenants and those afflicted need to turn to Christ, as does everyone.

[The Folk Prophet]

Perhaps there ought to be a difference in how we handle the sin vs. the sinner. The example was set by the Savior.

Reminds me of my father chewing me out thru his tears after I took a fall out of tree and was pierced by a bunch of fresh punji sticks he created after clearing an area of saplings. We all look back and laugh now at my father’s reaction. He managed to carry my punctured and bloody body all the way back up to the house. Yelling at me perhaps provided much needed oxygen to get me somewhere he could attend my wounds, but it was pointless because the time of warning was past.

 

Church is a place where we both receive warnings and seek healing. I think it's important for all to keep that in mind, both those who warn, those warned and those past warning who are caught in the snares and who seek forgiveness and healing.

 

As someone who still struggles with this, I take no offense with what Folk Prophet has stated. He is right it's a serious thing and it's breaking covenants and those afflicted need to turn to Christ, as does everyone.

 

This is very insightful. Thank you.

[slamjet]

I challenge you to find a statement by me anywhere that claims prayer is all that is needed.

 

I believe it was repentance, not prayer, and I quoted it. 

 

Well, I tried to strike a civil tone but discussion is not your aim.  You're finding all kinds of ways of being hostle just for the sake of being hostle.  There's no room for discussion so I'm moving on.

[The Folk Prophet]

I believe it was repentance, not prayer, and I quoted it. 

 

Here is the statement you made that I was referring too.

 

So please don't just stay with the "prayer and the Atonement" is the answer.

 

 

Well, I tried to strike a civil tone but discussion is not your aim.  You're finding all kinds of ways of being hostle just for the sake of being hostle.  There's no room for discussion so I'm moving on.

 

In re-reading your post you did try and strike a civil tone. I can appreciate that and I apologize for reacting more defensively than I should have. I was feeling repeatedly attacked. But it was not, in any regard, hostility for hostility's sake. I apologize for the defensive tone. That's on me. But I do think you were attributing ideas to me that I never said.

[Drpepper]

 

For myself, I would not have been able to go through the repentance process if I didn't have medication that helped me be able to think clearly.  So please don't just stay with the "prayer and the Atonement" is the answer.  It is, but for someone starting out, they need to get to that place where they can make the Atonement work for them.

I like what you have said here and I understand completely. But I also understand those who may not get this. Unless you have personally had to walk in this part of Gethsemene you may think " pray and get over it " is the answer. I don't think anyone is really saying this however the journey of repentance is different for all. The only common denomination is Christ.

[Traveler]

It seems you have the same approach to addiction as most everyone else who has not experienced this first or second hand and that is just saying that repentance is all that's needed.  It's much more complicated than that.  The repentance process includes self discovery so that the addiction can be overcome, thus, the 12 step program.  As a part of that, therapy and even medication may be in the mix.  Elder Hollands talk titled "Like a Broken Vessel" gives a pretty good primer about this.  One quote from that talk is:

 

"...a crater in the mind so deep that no one can responsibly suggest it would surely go away if those victims would just square their shoulders and think more positively—though I am a vigorous advocate of square shoulders and positive thinking!"

 

Pres. Ballard talked about repentance from addiction in his talk "O That Cunning Plan of the Evil One."  His answer is that to start, fervent prayer is needed.  But there is a need to go through the process whether it's with counseling with the Bishop or a therapist.

 

For myself, I would not have been able to go through the repentance process if I didn't have medication that helped me be able to think clearly.  So please don't just stay with the "prayer and the Atonement" is the answer.  It is, but for someone starting out, they need to get to that place where they can make the Atonement work for them.  And that takes a lot of work.  Sometimes even stepping away from the church until they can get their bearings straight (as it was for me when I was ex'd).

 

I believe that's where the statement of you not having empathy for the afflicted is coming from; the overly-simplified answer of repent will fix everything and that we've been taught since our primary days.  Life is more complicated than that and while you are correct that repentance is a very necessary ingredient, there are other ingredients that are needed.  The first ingredient being an acknowledgement and confession that a persons life has become insane and unmanageable, the second is being willing to let God take control and their sins and third, letting him do just that.  And that just for starters.  It's not easy to immediately turn to the Atonement when one is in the throws of addiction.

There is a story of a river that flooded and as the water rose a man was warned by a passerby to leave his house and seek high ground but the man said he had a personal relationship with G-d, he was praying and exercising faith and G-d would take care of him.  And the waters continued to rise all around the house and another person passed by in a boat and called to the man to get in to be taken to higher ground – but the man again said he had a personal relationship with G-d, he was praying and exercising faith and G-d would take care of him.  The waters continued to rise and the man got out on the roof of his house and a helicopter came by and offered to lift the man to safety but the man said he had a personal relationship with G-d, he was praying and exercising faith and G-d would take care of him.

 

Finely the waters rose and took away the house and the man was drowned.  When he arrived at the gates of heaven he met G-d and asks G-d why despite his faith and prayers G-d had not saved him.  G-d looked at the man and said that three times he tried to save the man, first he sent a passerby to warn him, then he sent a man in a boat and finally a helicopter but all three times the man has refused the assistance that G-d had sent to save the man.

 

It would seem to me that medication was answer to your prayers – I honor you for paying attention to the answer you were given.

[Awakened]

Woah, I thought this thread was really active because you guys were just discussing the article, hence why I didn't look into this thread at all. Had I known, I might have been able to be of some help here.

 

I've just finished reading "A Perfect Brightness of Hope" by Phil Simkins. Perhaps some of you know it. It's one LDS members story about how he lost everything he cared about because of his drinking addiction. It, of course, also describes how he finally gets out of it almost completely.

 

There were three very important things about dealing with addiction that I learned from this amazing story.

 

1. You must first admit that you are POWERLESS over your addictions. Some will know this as the first step of AA.

 

2. In order to truly fight this addiction, you must submit to God EVERY DAY. Every day, you pray to have the Lord help you overcome any temptations that you might run into. Every day, you renew your commitment to rely on the Lord.

 

3. No matter how much time has past, you must ALWAYS be vigilant. The day you stop relying on the Lord for any reason is the day that you become incredibly vulnerable. Your addiction can and will strike again, no matter HOW long it's been since you've last given in, no matter how much you've repented. BUT as long as you rely on the Lord, you can overcome it completely every day and find true happiness.

 

Hopefully that will be of some help to you guys. Maybe not. In any case, feel free to ask me any question you guys would like, keeping in mind my current history.