Earrings

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW:  Just_A_Girl and I ignored that advice and took student loans up the wazoo to get my law school education.  I regret that, very intensely, at least once a month as I compare my loan payments with my income.

 

We also ignored the Church's (very old) recommendation about avoiding birth control.  She got the shot, and it triggered all sorts of nasty physical symptoms that took two years to clear up, and another year to get her fertile again.

 

Those white-bread east-benchers have an uncanny ability to produce advice that would have saved me an awful lot of trouble, if I'd been smart enough to take it.

[The Folk Prophet]

I have a good friend that refuses to visit teach any woman with a tattoo as the GAs said we shouldn't get tattoos.  I'm not blaming the GAs for her views and yes, I do believe they put great thought and prayer into what they deliver.  But I also believe they do not want us to obey their words while forgetting higher laws of love and charity. 

 

You're right, we should listen to the GAs and heed their advice and I was wrong to suggest otherwise.  But if I must pick between dangly earrings and loving my neighbor, I'm going to love my neighbor.

 

Well this is a different issue entirely. One does not follow the other, not has it ever been suggested or taught otherwise. "Keep the commandments" does not translate to "hate everybody who doesn't". That's a basic and obvious thing that is clearly and often taught (in spite of the fact that many are oblivious to it) but in no way has any bearing on whether we should or should not follow the prophet's counsel.

[The Folk Prophet]

FWIW:  Just_A_Girl and I ignored that advice and took student loans up the wazoo to get my law school education.  I regret that, very intensely, at least once a month as I compare my loan payments with my income.

 

We also ignored the Church's (very old) recommendation about avoiding birth control.  She got the shot, and it triggered all sorts of nasty physical symptoms that took two years to clear up, and another year to get her fertile again.

 

Those white-bread east-benchers have an uncanny ability to produce advice that would have saved me an awful lot of trouble, if I'd been smart enough to take it.

 

FWIW, I also HUGELY regret my student loan debt, along with any other prophetic counsel I decided to disregard.

[Backroads]

FWIW:  Just_A_Girl and I ignored that advice and took student loans up the wazoo to get my law school education.  I regret that, very intensely, at least once a month as I compare my loan payments with my income.

 

We also ignored the Church's (very old) recommendation about avoiding birth control.  She got the shot, and it triggered all sorts of nasty physical symptoms that took two years to clear up, and another year to get her fertile again.

 

Those white-bread east-benchers have an uncanny ability to produce advice that would have saved me an awful lot of trouble, if I'd been smart enough to take it.

 

Editing my post because I feel I am being contentious and want to change that.

 

So I will simply with the question, if you could go back in time and start working at your degrees again, what would you do differerently as opposed to getting a student loan?  What if it became impossible to support a family and pay for school at the same time? 

[Guest]

You guys and your whining about white shirts and ties once a week. Try an underwire bra every single day. 

[jerome1232]

 

I have a good friend that refuses to visit teach any woman with a tattoo as the GAs said we shouldn't get tattoos.  I'm not blaming the GAs for her views and yes, I do believe they put great thought and prayer into what they deliver.  But I also believe they do not want us to obey their words while forgetting higher laws of love and charity. 

 

 

You mean this whole time all I had to do was get a tattoo to avoid my home teachers!

I'm getting this one:

[Just_A_Guy]

Editing my post because I feel I am being contentious and want to change that.

 

So I will simply with the question, if you could go back in time and start working at your degrees again, what would you do differerently as opposed to getting a student loan?  What if it became impossible to support a family and pay for school at the same time? 

 

If I had it to do over again, I would have focused more on picking a marketable undergrad major (I majored in history, because it was what I "liked" and because I had enough high school AP credits that a BYU history degree could be done in three years.  Useless degree . . . absolutely useless).  And I wouldn't have done law school at all--law school should only be done if you love the law and/or you already have a connection at a stable law firm that you know will give you a job after you've passed the bar.  I'd have taken a second job as an undergrad, and--horrifying as it sounds--I would have asked Just_A_Girl to work as much as possible, even if it meant suspending her studies.  (Yes, it sounds very sexist; but Just_A_Girl always planned to be a SAHM anyways and $15K is a heckuva lot to pay as a twenty-three-year-old for a college degree that you're not going to use professionally.  As it turned out, the shot made Just_A_Girl so sick that she wound up having to drop out of school anyways.)

 

As for having a family?  "Birth control" would have involved watching the calendar, and if the kids come anyways . . . we just deal with it.  Student loans might still have been necessary for us, over the long haul--but they'd probably be less than a fifth of what they ultimately turned out to be, and I'd probably be making nearly double what I actually make.

[The Folk Prophet]

As for having a family?  "Birth control" would have involved watching the calendar, and if the kids come anyways . . . we just deal with it.  

 

Technically the authorities have also advised not putting off the family for school and stuff anyhow...so.... :)

[FiveNine]

I attend Sacrament at a YSA Ward every now and then when time allows, while most of the women seem to follow the general layout of what the sister missionaries wear there are a few men and women who do not dress 'the norm' so to speak. Though I will admit I am the only guy who goes with pierced ears, I usually take them out out of respect but every now and then I find myself slipping up and remember when I catch the bishop looking at them.

[Maureen]

If I had it to do over again, I would have focused more on picking a marketable undergrad major (I majored in history, because it was what I "liked" and because I had enough high school AP credits that a BYU history degree could be done in three years.  Useless degree . . . absolutely useless).  And I wouldn't have done law school at all--law school should only be done if you love the law and/or you already have a connection at a stable law firm that you know will give you a job after you've passed the bar.  I'd have taken a second job as an undergrad, and--horrifying as it sounds--I would have asked Just_A_Girl to work as much as possible, even if it meant suspending her studies.  (Yes, it sounds very sexist; but Just_A_Girl always planned to be a SAHM anyways and $15K is a heckuva lot to pay as a twenty-three-year-old for a college degree that you're not going to use professionally.  As it turned out, the shot made Just_A_Girl so sick that she wound up having to drop out of school anyways.)

 

So JAG, what you're trying to say is that it wasn't really the student loan that was the problem it was your career choice?

 

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

My career choice was influenced by my willingness to borrow ridiculous sums of money to pursue that choice. The problem, as I see it, is the disconnect between what I borrowed then and what I'm earning now; which could have been drastically reduced or perhaps eliminated had I taken the Church's advice more seriously.

[mirkwood]

You guys and your whining about white shirts and ties once a week.

 

I only wear white shirts when I feel like it.   Thhhhbbbbtttttt 

[Backroads]

My career choice was influenced by my willingness to borrow ridiculous sums of money to pursue that choice. The problem, as I see it, is the disconnect between what I borrowed then and what I'm earning now; which could have been drastically reduced or perhaps eliminated had I taken the Church's advice more seriously.

 

 

So why doesn't the Church advise this anymore if it would have benefited people?  You admitted you still might have had to take out student loans, which still would have been ignoring the advice given on student loans. 

 

Right now, the Church says it's perfectly all right to take out student loans if you believe it will help with your education.  Why did the advice change?

[mrmarklin]

Right. Cultural bias. They aren't led by the spirit or anything. Just a bunch of rich white guys in suits who don't understand.

You said it, not me.

One must see that YOUR cultural bias is also in play here.:-)

[The Folk Prophet]

I believe it was Ezra Taft Benson who declared we should not take out student loans to pay for college but rather work for our tuition fee no matter how long it took.  He said that over the pulpit.  I know many people of that generation who found the advice not feasible and ignored it..

 

You know, I can't find any quote on this. Can you source it? The primary principle that the church has had on debt since 1975-ish has been as indicated in One For the Money:

 

"With the exception of buying a home, paying for education, or making other vital investments, avoid debt and the resulting finance charges."

 

I'm wondering if there's some context missing in what Pres. Benson actually said.

[Just_A_Guy]

So why doesn't the Church advise this anymore if it would have benefited people?  You admitted you still might have had to take out student loans, which still would have been ignoring the advice given on student loans. 

I don't think it's quite right to say I would have been "ignoring" it--I would have made several radical course corrections in an attempt to comply and had loans still been necessary after all of that, it would have been a fraction of what was otherwise needed.

I'll leave it for you and TFP to hash out exactly what the Church's advice has been over the years re student debt, and just leave my testimony that I wish I hadn't been so cavalier about racking up student debt and I wish I had taken the Church's general advice about debt a lot more seriously.

[The Folk Prophet]

From your mouth to Gods ears.....

 

I can, I suppose list the number of times a GA has put his foot in his mouth, or given poor or incorrect council but what would be the point. The church does not offer apologies or retractions. I am fine with this, as we are also taught to use and exercise our own free agency to humbly pray for our own answers and to seek out our own personal revelation.

 

You said it, not me.

One must see that YOUR cultural bias is also in play here.:-)

 

I honestly don't know how to respond to you two. If you both hate the General Authorities so much, think they're uninspired, foolish, old, culturally biased men, then what are you doing here? Is your objective just to tear the church down and start an uprising? If you have no sense that these men are lead by God then move on. I have no interest in arguing with people who just don't believe. Your belief is your own business. I'm not going to argue with you on it.

 

As for me, I believe the General Authorities are led by the Spirit.

 

Neither one of you seem capable of understanding sarcasm. And mrmarklin, my cultural bias is irrelevant. We're talking about whether you believe the General Authorities to be culturally biased. Your bringing up my cultural bias is a nice dig. Way to go.   Not really relevant though.

 

So, go ahead. Pierce your ears and other body parts, wear your pink and blue shirts to church, get tatoos, go into debt, don't store any food, down all the addictive substances you want, and don't do your hometeaching. Who's stopping you?

[omegaseamaster75]

I honestly don't know how to respond to you two. If you both hate the General Authorities so much, think they're uninspired, foolish, old, culturally biased men, then what are you doing here? Is your objective just to tear the church down and start an uprising? If you have no sense that these men are lead by God then move on. I have no interest in arguing with people who just don't believe. Your belief is your own business. I'm not going to argue with you on it.

 

As for me, I believe the General Authorities are led by the Spirit.

 

Neither one of you seem capable of understanding sarcasm. And mrmarklin, my cultural bias is irrelevant. We're talking about whether you believe the General Authorities to be culturally biased. Your bringing up my cultural bias is a nice dig. Way to go.   Not really relevant though.

 

So, go ahead. Pierce your ears and other body parts, wear your pink and blue shirts to church, get tatoos, go into debt, don't store any food, down all the addictive substances you want, and don't do your hometeaching. Who's stopping you?

1. I clearly understand sarcasm "from your mouth to Gods ears" sounds like a pretty sarcastic remark that I made which you took to heart......honestly I'm surprised that someone who understands sarcasm as well as you didn't pick up on that.

 

2. For the record I never said I do not think that the GA's are not inspired men. I believe that they are led by the spirit that the prophet leads and guides our church through direct revelation from Christ. I am a believer. 

 

3. It is the holier than thou attitude that I take issue with. It demonstrates a key issue with poor retention numbers and why people fall away from the church, or come to church and feel judged. Somehow my not wearing a white shirt makes me less worthy? or if i choose to get a tattoo, or pierce body parts it makes me less eligible to participate in the church? Yes we have been counseled against these things but people are free to make their own decisions. What if I have a smoking problem or drinking problem? what if I do drugs? Should I not be welcome? Who is the church for if not these people?

 

4. Cultural Bias is relevant how could it not be? Unlike you I choose not to stick my head in the sand and deify our leadership. Our prophet pulls his pants on one leg at a time, when he goes to the bathroom it stinks. Is he the leader of our church? YES do I try to follow his teachings sure I do, and when he says all members must wear a white shirt to be members in good standing guess what....I'll probably wear a white shirt.

[The Folk Prophet]

1. I clearly understand sarcasm "from your mouth to Gods ears" sounds like a pretty sarcastic remark that I made which you took to heart......honestly I'm surprised that someone who understands sarcasm as well as you didn't pick up on that.

 

Sarcasm is meant to be taken to heart.

 

Let's take the sarcasm and ironic tones out:

 

Me: "Right. Cultural bias. They aren't led by the spirit or anything. Just a bunch of rich white guys in suits who don't understand." = "The prophets and apostles are not just a bunch of rich white guys in suits who don't understand. They are led by the Spirit."

 

Your posts: "From your mouth to Gods ears....." (followed by supportive expressions of their foot-in-mouth-edness) and "You said it, not me." = (As I read it) "We think that what you're saying sacrastically is literal and we agree with it literally, in that we do think they are a bunch of white geezers who are culturally biased and not led by the spirit." How do you expect your responses to be interpreted? If you didn't mean it to be read that way, then why respond that way?

 

Is that not what you meant? Did you not mean that you believe them to be rich white guys in suits who do not understand? Or was the whole foot-in-mouth thing sarcasm?

 

2. For the record I never said I do not think that the GA's are not inspired men. I believe that they are led by the spirit that the prophet leads and guides our church through direct revelation from Christ. I am a believer. 

 

How is this congruent with this:

 

I can, I suppose list the number of times a GA has put his foot in his mouth, or given poor or incorrect council but what would be the point. The church does not offer apologies or retractions. I am fine with this, as we are also taught to use and exercise our own free agency to humbly pray for our own answers and to seek out our own personal revelation.

 

 

 

3. It is the holier than thou attitude that I take issue with. It demonstrates a key issue with poor retention numbers and why people fall away from the church, or come to church and feel judged. Somehow my not wearing a white shirt makes me less worthy? or if i choose to get a tattoo, or pierce body parts it makes me less eligible to participate in the church? Yes we have been counseled against these things but people are free to make their own decisions. What if I have a smoking problem or drinking problem? what if I do drugs? Should I not be welcome? Who is the church for if not these people?

 

If someone has a smoking or drinking problem their eligibility to participate in church IS limited. Surely you don't believe that those burdened with such things should be performing priesthood ordinances.

 

Have you seen anyone wearing a colored shirt asked to leave church, ever? No. Of course not. If you have, you witnessed a singular incident of gross abuse of authority. You're reading a holier-than-thou idea into something that isn't the case. I know a lot of colored shirt wearers that are fully active, good men. Not a single one of them has ever been kicked out of church for this. Would I, given the chance, encourage them to wear white shirts? Yes. I'd also encourage the smoker and drinker to quit smoking and drinking. I would always recommend following counsel given by our leaders. That doesn't translate to (except, obviously, in your mind) "You are not worthy to be a part of this church."

 

According to your thinking, the entirety of the temple leads to holier-than-though thinking. I mean, how dare we make people wear all white? How dare we not let them in if they aren't worthy?

 

I hate to break it to you, but the gospel is discriminatory. To join and participate and any level requires submission to rules of one sort or another. And the more participatory we want to be, the more obedience and submission is required.

 

4. Cultural Bias is relevant how could it not be? Unlike you I choose not to stick my head in the sand and deify our leadership. Our prophet pulls his pants on one leg at a time, when he goes to the bathroom it stinks. Is he the leader of our church? YES do I try to follow his teachings sure I do, and when he says all members must wear a white shirt to be members in good standing guess what....I'll probably wear a white shirt.

 

My head is not in the sand and I do not deify our leadership, and accusing me of that only shows that all you are interested in pushing your agenda rather than having real discourse. How is it that pointing out that our leaders bathroom experiences stink helping? As if that has anything to do with anything. This is just offensive.

 

Following the counsel of our prophets and apostles is scriptural. It is not cultural. It is not putting them on a pedestal. In point of fact the scriptures clearly teach that they are not perfect. The mandate remains. We follow then in spite of their imperfections because we are commanded to do so by He who is perfect, and who promises that we will not be led astray in doing so.

[omegaseamaster75]

TFP we are going to have to agree to disagree, I have made extreme statements in a effort to get my point across. If they have come across as offensive to anyone I apologize.

 

You like me have made up your mind as to the direction you want to live your life in accordance with your beliefs in the gospel, I have also done so (mine don't happen to include wearing a white shirt). 

 

I can argue your points back but I will not. 

 

I have no "agenda" only that when we look at a person it is not based on what he is wearing or by what sins/ baggage he/she carries with them as many in the church are prone to do. 

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP we are going to have to agree to disagree

 

Wait. You mean to say you don't agree with me?!

[estradling75]

 

3. It is the holier than thou attitude that I take issue with. It demonstrates a key issue with poor retention numbers and why people fall away from the church, or come to church and feel judged. Somehow my not wearing a white shirt makes me less worthy? or if i choose to get a tattoo, or pierce body parts it makes me less eligible to participate in the church? Yes we have been counseled against these things but people are free to make their own decisions. What if I have a smoking problem or drinking problem? what if I do drugs? Should I not be welcome? Who is the church for if not these people?

 

 

A person can fight against the "holier then thou" attitude that some members have without rhetorically throwing the General Authorities and their councils under the bus in the attempt to do so.  One can also engage in such an effort without engaging in the same rhetorical overblownness that they find offensive when done by the "holier then thou" group.

 

Basically you are coming across as someone that that is "Holier then thou" toward those people they judge to be acting "Holier then thou" and that is not a strong position to be in

[Backroads]

I'm taking this back to the OP for a moment. 

 

I hope there is nothing against dangly earrings.  I wore them all the time in college.  They were my thing. 

 

Now I can't wear earrings because I have a toddler.  But I still appreciate long dangly earrings.

[mrmarklin]

I really don't think that cultural bias has anything to do with whether our leaders are prophets of God.  They are.

 

But the idea that somehow they're not influenced by their life experiences in what they say is a little silly because it's so obvious.

[mdfxdb]

 

 

But the idea that somehow they're not influenced by their life experiences in what they say is a little silly because it's so obvious.

I agree.  Everyone is influenced by their life experiences.  It is what makes us who we are.  It shapes our perception of others, and our outlook on life.  Based on experience.  The GA's are people just like us and are subject to those life events/influences.