The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Many have said the church will never be forced to perform gay marriage in the temple. Theoretically, if I read this right, they could demand marriage in the Copenhagen temple under this law already. Gay Danish couples win right to marry in church Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 The church might have a leg to stand on with this however, Temples are not available to just anyone. There is certain criteria that has to be met even for heterosexual couples. It will be interesting to see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 The church might have a leg to stand on with this however, Temples are not available to just anyone. There is certain criteria that has to be met even for heterosexual couples. It will be interesting to see what happens. Theoretically you are right. But...the "gay" thing has a lot of clout right now that may, if someone is of the mind to do so in a country like Denmark, successfully ignore that side of things and force the issue legally. It's gotta be on satan's wishlist. woundedknee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Church also has the option to stop all marriages in the temples and just do sealings... So no I don't see it happening Jane_Doe, pam, woundedknee and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Church also has the option to stop all marriages in the temples and just do sealings... So no I don't see it happening So that would mean they get married in a civil ceremony and then can get sealed right? Basically the way the UK does it now. mirkwood and Palerider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Church also has the option to stop all marriages in the temples and just do sealings... So no I don't see it happening That is a viable point too. Playing devil's advocate a bit though...would you put it past a gay activist to push the issue anyway? (Not allowing gay sealings is unfair and discriminatory.) And would you put it past some "progressive" government agreeing and forcing it legally? To be clear, I don't see it happening either. But I sure see someone trying to make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 So that would mean they get married in a civil ceremony and then can get sealed right? Basically the way the UK does it now. Yeap... and the UK something the church can point to and say this is how we have responded to legal issues effecting getting married in the temple in the past if challenged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Another interesting thought related to the church. Temple sealings may be safe via removing legal marriage from the process. But this law, technically, does force an LDS bishop to marry a gay couple in an LDS church should they so desire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 TFP, your article dates from June of 2012. That law applied only to the official state church. There are recent stories from the conservative bloggosphere alleging that Denmark has now expanded that requirement; but they all seem to source back to the same 2012 Daily Telegraph article that you cite above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 And would someone not of the LDS faith having to look at that not understand the difference between a sealing and a marriage? They probably wouldn't. Even those who are LDS get it confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Oh good catch JAG. I'm usually one that catches those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 That is a viable point too. Playing devil's advocate a bit though...would you put it past a gay activist to push the issue anyway? (Not allowing gay sealings is unfair and discriminatory.) And would you put it past some "progressive" government agreeing and forcing it legally? To be clear, I don't see it happening either. But I sure see someone trying to make it happen. Anybody can push any issue. But, regardless of how "progressive" a government is, they can't force a legal issue on something that has no legal impact. A sealing is not a legal contract. It would be just like a government legally forcing somebody to spit-handshake with anybody who wants to spit-handshake with them crying discrimination if they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 TFP, your article dates from June of 2012. That law applied only to the official state church. There are recent stories from the conservative bloggosphere alleging that Denmark has now expanded that requirement; but they all seem to source back to the same 2012 Daily Telegraph article that you cite above. Ah...man. I looked at the date to check how recent it was too. My brain just ignored the 2012 part of it...or, more likely, I can't keep my years straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 FWIW, TFP, it isn't just you. In Googling, I found probably 8-10 news stories mentioning this as a 2014 development. But in trying to ferret out the source, that old Telegraph article just keeps popping up. I do agree with your overall point, though, that the trend is troubling and is, I daresay, an indicator of where the American gay-rights lobby wants to take us next. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Another interesting thought related to the church. Temple sealings may be safe via removing legal marriage from the process. But this law, technically, does force an LDS bishop to marry a gay couple in an LDS church should they so desire. The church would probably remove the "marrying keys" from the bishops in Denmark if this happens. So, if you want to get married (heterosexual or homosexual) you have to go through the State. Tricky tricky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 And would someone not of the LDS faith having to look at that not understand the difference between a sealing and a marriage? They probably wouldn't. Even those who are LDS get it confused. Undoubtedly people would push it... But courts do allow you to have your say... Which would allow the Church to challenge those who simply don't want to understand. Legally the position would be solid. Of course that might not matter depending on the biases of the Judges and Lawyers... Which means in the end it will come down to people which it always does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 How does the impact Danish church members? Denmark does have a temple (in Copenhagen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The church doesn't do marriages. They do sealings. Very different, and also the argument that they will probably use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The church doesn't do marriages. They do sealings. Very different, and also the argument that they will probably use. Well that just isn't true. It's called celestial "marriage" and is very different than just a sealing. Even if it isn't a legal marriage due to the law of the land, there is no question that the sealing of man and wife is a marriage. This is fairly easily supported in D&C 131 and 132, as in: "meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and "And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant,", etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Well that just isn't true. It's called celestial "marriage" and is very different than just a sealing. Even if it isn't a legal marriage due to the law of the land, there is no question that the sealing of man and wife is a marriage. This is fairly easily supported in D&C 131 and 132, as in: "meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and "And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant,", etc... Ah! Now you're arguing theology instead of law. A sealing is very different by law than a marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The church doesn't do marriages. They do sealings. Very different, and also the argument that they will probably use. I would have to disagree here. If a couple does what is commonly called a Temple Wedding they have to fulfill the legal requirements for marriage and the Church requirement for being Sealed. All of which is done in the Temple (when the law allows. Which the UK currently does not) It is also clear that legal marriage is not necessary the same as how/what God views as a marriage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Ah! Now you're arguing theology instead of law. A sealing is very different by law than a marriage. Sometimes. I guess the point is, (sort of the point...not really, because I think it unlikely anyhow) that if a government were of the mind to -- or rather, if the right lawyer wanted to push it on the wrong government -- that an argument could clearly be made that man and wife sealings are marriages, and therefore discriminatory against those poor, poor gay folk. I'm not saying it's reasonable. I'm saying that I wonder if it's close enough for the evil world to take a shot at the church with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennarator Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The Church also has the option to stop all marriages in the temples and just do sealings... So no I don't see it happeningThis is exactly what I was thinking. So yeah, not happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggy Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The church would probably remove the "marrying keys" from the bishops in Denmark if this happens. So, if you want to get married (heterosexual or homosexual) you have to go through the State. Tricky tricky.There are no "marrying keys" to be removed from the Bishops. Each Bishop/Branch President has to register with his local civilian authority so that he has the legal (law of the land) authority to perform marriages. When my husband and I got married, the Branch President married us in a civilian ceremony. He could do so by the authority given to him by the State of Oregon,and it was given the seal of the Lincoln County Clerk. Later, when we had followed the conditions required by the LDS church, we were then sealed to each other at the Mesa Temple. No matter where you live, what country - the civilian laws do NOT recognize our Temple Marriages/Sealings to spouses. The gay couples if they are LDS, know that their union is not approved by the church or by God. They know that no Bishop/Branch President is ever going to marry them. If they are actively intimate, they will not be issued a Temple Recommend, thus it is a moot subject regarding the temple marriage/sealing. As for the new law in Denmark, as was pointed out in an earlier post - refers NOT to TCOJCOLdS. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveNine Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 So that would mean they get married in a civil ceremony and then can get sealed right? Basically the way the UK deoes it now.Here in Washington State its legal for gay couples to marry and they are pushing hard to get it onto the ballot in Oregon as well. Wonder how that will effect anything around here. Reminds me of a recent lawsuit that a gay couple took to a cake maker because the maker refused to make them a wedding cake due to it conflicting with the makers religious and personal beliefs. While I understand the concept of no discrimination with employment, housing, ect when you own a business, or run a church... it should be at the discretion of the church or business owner to do service or not. That's like saying if I walk with no shirt into Winco and they refuse me service, I sue them for discrimination... People who do things like this I feel do it to upset an establishment or purely for the attention. Political correctness and progressiveness is a disease among-st our way of life these days. Being a Conservative in a very liberal area I see that on a daily basis. *Headache* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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