Are we righteously obligated to pursue wealth and influence?

[estradling75]

I did not say I was okay with it.

 

I did infer that from the statement that you were planing to keep it and past it down.  Sorry if my inference was incorrect.

 

And wasn't wanting to pick on you... I simply wanted to spin off your example to the point that we really do not have any kind of universal agreement on what is too much.  We have a bunch if individuals who saying "Well that is too much for me"

 

In all honesty if I were to reveal what I have paid for somethings I am sure you would find something you thought I paid to much for.  Its simply the nature of this kind of discussion

[mdfxdb]

In my professional career I have known many members of the church, how much they make, and how much they pay in tithing.  Bishops, stake presidents, and yes even a 70 or two.  Many of them do very well.  Many of them live in large and spacious buildings.  Many of them have multiple cars, suv's, motorcycles, boats, campers, trailers, take fantastic trips, and generally live a lifestyle that most of us can't fathom.  

 

If you were to see what these people actually pay in tithing, vs their income you would be shocked.  Both for good and for bad. Some are very generous, most are average or slightly below.  Oh, and they still have money left over for watches, golf memberships, etc, etc, etc.  

 

The pursuit of wealth is a means to an end.  If you love what you do and it is in a lucrative career than the money is a side effect of that love.  If you love what you do and it's not in a lucrative career, then you still have that love of life.

 

The people who have wealth have many good reasons to purchase $50K watches, and I have outlined some of them.  They are good reasons.  After they pay 10% or more to the church, who are we to say what they do is wasteful/excessive or not?

[The Folk Prophet]

And was wasn't wanting to pick on you... 

 

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't feeling picked on by you. Just pointing out that I don't, necessarily think $75 for a watch is okay. Honest truth is that I don't know where the line is. But 50k is WAY past it any way you cut it.

[estradling75]

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't feeling picked on by you. Just pointing out that I don't, necessarily think $75 for a watch is okay. Honest truth is that I don't know where the line is. But 50k is WAY past it any way you cut it.

 

I tend to agree... But I can't help but wonder if my thoughts are biased by the fact that the option to buy a 50k watch is also WAY past my means now or in any really possible future I can image.

[omegaseamaster75]

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't feeling picked on by you. Just pointing out that I don't, necessarily think $75 for a watch is okay. Honest truth is that I don't know where the line is. But 50k is WAY past it any way you cut it.

I didn't know that they even sold watches for as little as $75.00

[Traveler]

I believe there is a problem - That problem is that many on this forum seem to think and believe wealth is all about money.  The great secret I learned from my father is that wealth has nothing to do with money.  Some seem to think if you do no spend all your money you are being smart and wealthy.

 

The first principle of wealth is to learn to love and enjoy hard work.  A lot of people have a lot of money and because the love their money they learn to hate hard work.  Jesus said to lay up treasures in heaven where no one can take away your treasures.  If you love money in the bank - you are poor.  And you will realize how poor you are when someone takes away your money.

 

No one can take away your love of hard work and hard work is the source of true wealth.

 

The second principle is to spend less than you earn.  Again this is not about money.  There are many ways we are compensated for our works beyond money.  We can receive pay in honor, respect and love to name a few – and yes we can get money but money is not really the point.  The only reason to get money is to trade it for something else of actual or real value.  The point is that we do not “use up” whatever it is that we get. 

 

It is easy and lazy to think of being rich or poor in terms of money – but if you make that mistake – you will never ever be wealthy or happy regardless of how much money you have.

[The Folk Prophet]

Sigh.  TFP... this is ANATESS.  Remember me?  I thought we're done with that misunderstanding business from long time ago... I was building up on Suzie's LOL of predicting you going point-by-point on my response and me telling her, yeah, you would think he'd do that but TFP is smart... and here you go point-by-point just when I said that... making Suzie's LOL even more LOL to which I responded to play on Suzie's shocked smiley because it's just not in you to give up because you have to win the argument which is what I thought Suzie meant when she LOL'd in the first place...  Never mind.  Go off in huff.  The internet is too darned difficult.

 

And just so you can feel better, I don't own a watch.  And yes, I can afford a 50K one but think it would be a waste of my money.  But then you're probably going to judge me anyway because I drive a Cadillac.  Oh well.

 

I don't much care if you want to buy a 50k watch or drive a Bugatti. My opinion about a 50k watch is MINE. I -- me -- yours truly feels it is obscene to spend that much on a watch. So I will not. What you or others do is your business.

 

I fully get that there may be potentially valid reasons (if I did not, I would have not implied that I might acquiesce to some). I fully understand that not everyone will see it the same way. estradling75 made a very astute point about the relativity of it. I don't know where the line is drawn. But I know that I, personally, find a 50k watch abusive and entirely out of line with the spirit of why the Lord would bless someone with money. I also accept that I could be mistaken. But nothing you've said is convincing - with perhaps the exception of an investment.

 

There's no misunderstanding. You're telling me I am not thinking (a cut), and am judging (another cut). It reminded me that I do not enjoy debate with anatess. So I won't. Maybe there are misunderstandings at the core of why I don't enjoy it. That's irrelevant. I do not enjoy it. Hence, the "huff" (another cut). It is simply no fun to discuss with you any longer.

 

I, frankly, don't care enough about the issue to stand my ground (contrary to your implication that I have to win an argument (thanks for that cut as well, by the way)), particularly when the comments turn cutting. And so, this non-thinking, judgmental, pig-headed, jerk is, in this case, storming off in a huffy tantrum. 

[The Folk Prophet]

I tend to agree... But I can't help but wonder if my thoughts are biased by the fact that the option to buy a 50k watch is also WAY past my means now or in any really possible future I can image.

 

I work very hard to set my standards now just in case I do get rich. I have carefully determined to NEVER buy the Aston Martin I would want, for example, no matter how many billions I may end up with (yeah, right) because a Camry is just fine. I work very hard to set my mind so any money the Lord blesses me will be used as directly as possible to build the kingdom. But I do, certainly understand that some things are relative. I'm not too worried about people thinking I'm going overboard by driving a new Camry instead of a used Corolla if I got rich though. They're free to that p.o.v. And they're free to buy the used Corolla when they're rich too. Good for them! Hopefully the guy with the 50k watch lets my p.o.v. roll off as easily.

 

I also think white shirts should be worn to church, long hair on guys is a sin, video games are a waste of time, sports are one of the devil's greatest tools (including golf, btw), and rock music should not be generally consumed.

 

Surprise! I'm conservative.

[The Folk Prophet]

If you just say "wrong" it always wins. I submit to your superior logic. 

 

I actually really appreciate your "liking" this. It made me laugh. I hope you did it on purpose.

[Guest]

I fully get that there may be potentially valid reasons (if I did not, I would have not implied that I might acquiesce to some). I fully understand that not everyone will see it the same way. estradling75 made a very astute point about the relativity of it. I don't know where the line is drawn. But I know that I, personally, find a 50k watch abusive and entirely out of line with the spirit of why the Lord would bless someone with money. I also accept that I could be mistaken. But nothing you've said is convincing - with perhaps the exception of an investment.

 

 

 

This paragraph right here is the ROOT of today's political success of using wealth envy to drive people.  I don't need to convince you, you already convinced yourself.  "I might be mistaken and I don't know anything but I know it's contrary to the spirit" is an emotional response that is perfect political fodder.

 

You don't have to enjoy it.  I was enjoying it until you got upset.  But, I respond to things that need responding to.

[faith4]

I believe there is a problem - That problem is that many on this forum seem to think and believe wealth is all about money.  The great secret I learned from my father is that wealth has nothing to do with money.  Some seem to think if you do no spend all your money you are being smart and wealthy.

 

The first principle of wealth is to learn to love and enjoy hard work.  A lot of people have a lot of money and because the love their money they learn to hate hard work.  Jesus said to lay up treasures in heaven where no one can take away your treasures.  If you love money in the bank - you are poor.  And you will realize how poor you are when someone takes away your money.

 

No one can take away your love of hard work and hard work is the source of true wealth.

 

The second principle is to spend less than you earn.  Again this is not about money.  There are many ways we are compensated for our works beyond money.  We can receive pay in honor, respect and love to name a few – and yes we can get money but money is not really the point.  The only reason to get money is to trade it for something else of actual or real value.  The point is that we do not “use up” whatever it is that we get. 

 

It is easy and lazy to think of being rich or poor in terms of money – but if you make that mistake – you will never ever be wealthy or happy regardless of how much money you have.

 

I don't just like this, I love it.  Though I would say that the source of true wealth is a solid faith in Jesus.  When you have that faith, love and joy in your soul, you want to work hard and give to others generously.  For me, the love of hard work is a fruit of faith.  Suddenly, the "loving your neighbor as yourself" takes on a whole new meaning of what if means to truly love others and to give yourself to others w/no thoughts of recompense. 

And I agree that money is not really the point, it's how we use the gifts and blessings given by our Father, how are we good stewards of these gifts?  Anyone can be a good steward of the gifts (time, talent, money) given to them, it's not limited to the wealthy. 

[The Folk Prophet]

You don't have to enjoy it.  I was enjoying it until you got upset.  But, I respond to things that need responding to.

 

The one offending doesn't feel offended. Strange how that works.

[Guest]

The one offending doesn't feel offended. Strange how that works.

 

I apologize for having offended you.  It wasn't my intent.  But then, one has to be either stupid or cruel to intentionally offend people, so I don't know what that apology is worth.  And as you can see, I still don't know how to properly apologize because I don't understand the intent of apologies.  One of my many weaknesses.

[The Folk Prophet]

I apologize for having offended you.  It wasn't my intent.  But then, one has to be either stupid or cruel to intentionally offend people, so I don't know what that apology is worth.  And as you can see, I still don't know how to properly apologize because I don't understand the intent of apologies.  One of my many weaknesses.

 

Well, if it helps, your apology made me laugh. I'm sorry it was funny to read your inner struggle...now I feel bad too.

 

Here...let me teach you how to properly apologize...

 

I'm sorry. I did not mean to laugh at you.

 

.....THAT IT! Stop right there. No more explaining.

 

Incidentally, while I'm at it:

 

I'm sorry I got huffy and threw a tizzy fit.

[pam]

Group hug...group hug.

[The Folk Prophet]

Group hug...group hug.

 

<-- Major emoticon missed opportunity.

 

But I'm still fighting with others in the thread...  

[Guest]

I'm sorry I got huffy and threw a tizzy fit.

 

But but... I like it when you get huffy and throw a tizzy fit... it's like the papa bear telling the clueless little cub to stop baiting the lion.

 

Which reminds me... I still couldn't understand that Goldilocks story and http://drtheron.com/2013/04/08/things-that-frost-my-shorts-goldisucks-edition/ is quite right when she says:

But what frosts my shorts is that Mama Bear had a too small chair (for Goldilocks? how then could she fit her big bear butt into it?), too cold of porridge and too soft of bed. Heck, with those things, I’d be in such a wretched mood that if I was a large carnivore I would have just taken a big bite out of that little irritating monkey child.

 

But Backroads probably want to go back to Wealth and Influence which I'm still not quite sure what she means by Influence... because you don't need wealth to have influence...

[The Folk Prophet]

This paragraph right here is the ROOT of today's political success of using wealth envy to drive people.  I don't need to convince you, you already convinced yourself.  "I might be mistaken and I don't know anything but I know it's contrary to the spirit" is an emotional response that is perfect political fodder.

 

Since we made up I'll respond.

 

Baloney! :)

 

That is not what I said. I don't have an emotional reason for thinking 50k is too much for a watch. I am perfectly willing to invest in a 50k watch if there is a good and viable reason that helps to build the kingdom of God on the earth. Particularly more-so than not having bought it and using the money otherwise would have.

 

My motivations in these matters of opinion are driven by something different than you are assuming.

 

That being said, I really do not want to get back into it with you.

 

Agree to disagree. Or not. Whatever.

 

TFP out (again) *throws down the mic* 

[Suzie]

Sigh.  TFP... this is ANATESS.  Remember me?  I thought we're done with that misunderstanding business from long time ago... I was building up on Suzie's LOL of predicting you going point-by-point on my response and me telling her, yeah, you would think he'd do that but TFP is smart... and here you go point-by-point just when I said that... making Suzie's LOL even more LOL to which I responded to play on Suzie's shocked smiley because it's just not in you to give up because you have to win the argument which is what I thought Suzie meant when she LOL'd in the first place...  Never mind.  Go off in huff.  The internet is too darned difficult.

Hey anatess, wait...wait... wait...let me explain here.

 

1. I was laughing at this comment he made about himself:

 

It's easy to say there are a myriad of good reasons to buy a 50k watch. Throw some good ones out. I'm not unreasonable...  (why do I sense that may get another laugh from Suzie?)

 

TFP likes to debate and we don't agree with a lot of things and yeah yeah yeah he likes to be right and fights a point to the end, but you do that too and I do it as well and heck a lot of people here, I don't see anything wrong with that as long as it doesn't get personal. He was making fun of himself and I just took the chance to do the same. And then I replied:

 

she will give you a whole list and you will "kill" each one of her points

 

I said that because I couldn't think of ANY good reason why someone would spend 50K in a watch! Hence my shocking face when you provided the list and my subsequent comment about "mental gymnastics".

 

Anyways, I don't like when people get offended

 

So, please group hug...

[Suzie]

I apologize if my little joke caused all this. I was just playing around, did not mean to offend/hurt anyone.

[The Folk Prophet]

There's no righteous end attained for judging someone simply by the value of the watch they are wearing, mistaken reason or otherwise.

 

It is not judging someone. It is judging an action. And there is ABSOLUTELY potential value in doing so as we struggle to learn and choose who we will be from our judgments.

 

This is the big fallacy of don't judge and it is mistaken.

 

We are supposed to judge!

 

Not people. Not to condemn. But absolutely to assess situations, choices, values, decisions, etc., and to use our brains to make ourselves better.

 

This whole, "don't judge" trend is mindless and useless.

 

If I am to say, "That guy's not going to the Celestial kingdom unless he repents" then feel free to call me on judging. Otherwise, it's so much jibber-jabber.

 

Man...I just threw down my mic.

[The Folk Prophet]

I apologize if my little joke caused all this. I was just playing around, did not mean to offend/hurt anyone.

 

Not at all.

 

One of these days anatess will learn that I get huffy when my "thinking" ability is questioned or when I'm called judgmental. Both in the same thread...

 

Okay...okay...that's blaming her for my weakness.

 

I'm sorry again.

 

But it had nothing to do with you Suzie.

[Guest]

Not at all.

 

One of these days anatess will learn that I get huffy when my "thinking" ability is questioned or when I'm called judgmental. Both in the same thread...

 

Okay...okay...that's blaming her for my weakness.

 

I'm sorry again.

 

But it had nothing to do with you Suzie.

 

 

What?  You can't let Suzie off the hook!  She started it!  Waaaaa!

 

Okay, so I misunderstood her LOL which is not a surprise... but I'm Filipino, I have an excuse!

 

Someone please tell me why I can't find the group hug button.  I only get the first set of smileys and pressing the arrows shows blank... Waaaaa again!

[The Folk Prophet]

Someone please tell me why I can't find the group hug button.  I only get the first set of smileys and pressing the arrows shows blank... Waaaaa again!

 

I dunno...your using a Mac?

[Guest]

I dunno...your using a Mac?

 

I wish.  I'm on this old hp that still runs IE7...