Knitting/Crafting in Church?

[Vort]

My thoughts align with common sense more than polar extremes. Juggling versus knitting?

I'm coming from the corner of within what's reasonable. I wouldn't recommend a member unroll their yoga mat in the chapel aisle, and proceed with their yoga ritual, even if it does allow for better concentration and focus. Let's use common sense. But regardless, I can't control what someone else chooses to do, so I'd better figure out a way that I can focus in without worrying about what others are or aren't doing.

The problem with invoking "common sense" is that it is neither common nor, I think, obviously sensical. I see no obvious difference between knitting, tatting lace, and juggling small balls, at least insofar as their effect on others nearby.

[Vort]

Sacrament talks, Sunday School and Relief Society lessons are not the same as a one on one conversato on where one is pouring out their heart. In my opinion it's apples and oranges.

But it's very much the same as temple instruction. Do you think knitting (or juggling) is appropriate there?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Vort, it's not the same just as juggling is not the same as knitting.

[Bini]

The problem with invoking "common sense" is that it is neither common nor, I think, obviously sensical. I see no obvious difference between knitting, tatting lace, and juggling small balls, at least insofar as their effect on others nearby.

 

I use "common sense" as in majority and not everyone.

 

I would wager that most people would agree that knitting is less distracting than juggling. In this regard, that would make it a common notion, and well, common sense. Still, my point is not this but rather, I can't control others. So what can *I* do to maintain focus and tune in? That much, is in my control. We need to redirect this matter in sight of what individuals can do to feel the spirit, no matter what else is going on around them. 

[The Folk Prophet]

I would wager that most people would call it common sense to keep the knitting out of church. But then again, common sense is altogether uncommon as we march ever onward towards the end of it all. So maybe I'm wrong here. Regardless, majority rule doesn't define right and wrong, so the point is meaningless.

Edited January 6, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

Why not? Why shouldn't we show the same respect and reverence at church as we do at the temple?

 

There's a whole other thread complaining about irreverence at church. Hmm...maybe we're getting to the root of it all. Do we really have so little respect for church that we consider it nothing more than math class?

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't.  I'm simply saying... I don't even craft in Eduational Institutions, how much more for Sunday School... Make sense?

[The Folk Prophet]

Also, the "we can't control others" idea isn't relevant to a discussion of whether something is appropriate. It's also not entirely true. We can't ultimately control others. We can influence them. At the very least, everyone saying "no problem" to an idea influences others who read this thread. At least having a few that say, "problem" may cause some to re-think the appropriateness. Moreover, we do have direct influence over some, and less direct influence over others, by way of exhortation, teaching, and most importantly, example. I would submit that the mother (or father...if he knits) who sits and knits in church is, indeed, setting a pretty poor example for others, not the least of which is their own offspring.

 

To Bini's point, yes, we can't really control others directly, and holding disdain for those who are doing things we consider inappropriate is likely the greater sin. Yes. But it's not entirely true that we have no influence and should just mind our own business.

[Guest]

Sacrament talks, Sunday School and Relief Society lessons are not the same as a one on one conversato on where one is pouring out their heart. In my opinion it's apples and oranges.

 

LP, Sacrament Talks, Sunday School, and Relief Society is just as critical, if not more critical than one pouring their heart out to their bishop.  In all 3, everyone is striving to keep the Spirit in the room... and right next to the podium in Sacrament meeting and on the table in Relief Society is a box of tissues... because, when one pours their testimony out, it is pouring their hearts out...

[Vort]

Vort, it's not the same just as juggling is not the same as knitting.

 

I understand that you feel this way, LP. But simply asserting your feelings doesn't make them so, or even convince me that you must be right. I think it's very much the same. Consider your previous post:

 

Sacrament talks, Sunday School and Relief Society lessons are not the same as a one on one conversato on where one is pouring out their heart. In my opinion it's apples and oranges.

 

Your point was clear: Community and class worship is "not the same as" individual communication between two people. Therefore, knitting in sacrament meeting or Relief Society is a much different thing from knitting (or stuffing envelopes) in a personal interview with the bishop.

 

Granted, your distinction is valid in the above situation. I agree.

 

But what about temple worship? It is also a sort of communal worship. That is, of course it should be one-on-one, you with the Spirit -- but that is exactly the same as your position in other community worship scenarios! So what is the relevant difference between knitting during sacrament meeting and knitting at an endowment session? Is the endowment session somehow "more sacred" than a sacrament meeting? I think not! Then what?

 

As I have said before, I am conflicted in this topic. Neither side is obviously correct. But I would like to consider some deeper underlying reasons for doing one thing or the other, rather than just falling back on what looks like "common sense" to some of us.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Anatess--IMO, that's still not the same.  Speaking to a group is very different than having a private one on one conversation. I'm not saying that those meetings aren't important, of course they are.  But just as I might knit while conversing with a friend for some conversations and not others, I think knitting is more appropriate for some settings than others.

 

Further, I don't see knitting as any more distracting than taking notes...and much less distracting than someone using their phone.  Taking notes and using your phone (assuming you are reading the scriptures or the lesson on it) are acceptable in church meetings, but they are not acceptable in the temple. Different scenarios have different expectations.

Edited January 6, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest]

IMO, that's still not the same.  Speaking to a group is very different than having a private one on one conversation. I'm not saying that those meetings aren't important, of course they are.  But just as I might knit while conversing with a friend for some conversations and not others, I think knitting is more appropriate for some settings than others.

 

Further, I don't see knitting as any more distracting than taking notes...and much less distracting than someone using their phone.  Taking notes and using your phone (assuming you are reading the scriptures or the lesson on it) are acceptable in church meetings, but they are not acceptable in the temple. Different scenarios have different expectations.

 

You're not understanding what I'm saying.  It is not the same in nature.  And I'm not even touching on level of importance.  I am comparing in level of reverence needed.

 

It is not about distracting... it is about Spirit.  And that's where your comparison to a conversation with a  friend does not apply - the requirement of having the Spirit in the conversation.

 

Now, granted, an educational campus does not require the spirit - as I was using to establish a level of comparison .  Yet, you can get kicked out for crafting during a lecture.  Obviously, you can also use the "it's not distracting" reasoning to crafting in a lecture.. but it doesn't fly there.  How much more for Sacrament Meeting when the level of reverence required is so much more important to keep the Spirit in the room?

 

This is really more akin to wearing Sunday clothes on Sunday out of reverence than it is about being "distracting" in your jeans.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Vort, I agree my saying it doesn't make it so.  Obviously we are all just sharing our opinions.  Likewise, your saying that juggling is the same as knitting doesn't make it so either.

 

About the temple--taking notes is acceptable in church but not in the temple.  Different scenarios for different places.

 

You are conflicted?  You don't come across that way.  Perhaps it is the limitations of written communication.

 

Okay, so if you don't want to fall back on common sense---the difference between juggling and knitting is this.  You can't juggle without everyone around you noticing,  Balls moving through the air are pretty nard to ignore unless the person juggling is behind you.  Not to mention the arms moving to throw and catch the balls.  
 

Knitting (the way some of us do it) involves very minor movement of the wrists.  It is done right in front of you, and not noticeable to people sitting behind you -- or even to the people near you if they are looking at the speaker and giving them their full attention.  Knitting shouldn't be any more distracting than taking notes.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Anatess, how does knitting detract from the Spirit any more than someone on their phone (whatever they may be doing with it) or taking notes, or doodling?  I don't think it is any different.

[Guest]

Knitting (the way some of us do it) involves very minor movement of the wrists.  It is done right in front of you, and not noticeable to people sitting behind you -- or even to the people near you if they are looking at the speaker and giving them their full attention.  Knitting shouldn't be any more distracting than taking notes.  

 

But this is your opinion... Knitting to those who don't knit is very noticeable.  Taking notes is not as noticeable because it is "common" to do in class.  Pulling out your phone to look at your scriptures is not noticeable in an LDS meeting... do that in a Catholic mass and you will be ogled like a fish in a fishbowl...

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[Vort]

Vort, I agree my saying it doesn't make it so.  Obviously we are all just sharing our opinions.  Likewise, your saying that juggling is the same as knitting doesn't make it so either.

 

True enough, but I was not reiterating my position as a response to the thread.

 

 

About the temple--taking notes is acceptable in church but not in the temple.  Different scenarios for different places.

 

True enough, but not relevant. We don't take notes in the temple because of the nature of temple worship. Taking notes would be in violation of the spirit, and probably the letter, of the covenants we make therein. Knitting has nothing at all to do with maintaining confidentiality.

 

You are conflicted?  You don't come across that way.  Perhaps it is the limitations of written communication.

 

Well, I do want reasoned solutions and discourse, and most of the unsubstantiated assertions have come from the "Knitting Is OK!" side of the discussion.

 

Okay, so if you don't want to fall back on common sense---the difference between juggling and knitting is this.  You can't juggle without everyone around you noticing,  Balls moving through the air are pretty nard to ignore unless the person juggling is behind you.  Not to mention the arms moving to throw and catch the balls.

 

Actually, you are incorrect in this. A skilled juggler using small balls can juggle them while sitting such that the balls never rise above his shoulders, six to twelve inches. Hand motion is minimal.

 

Knitting (the way some of us do it) involves very minor movement of the wrists.  It is done right in front of you, and not noticeable to people sitting behind you -- or even to the people near you if they are looking at the speaker and giving them their full attention.  Knitting shouldn't be any more distracting than taking notes.  

 

I could say the same about juggling. I still don't think juggling is appropriate.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

But this is your opinion... Knitting to those who don't knit is very noticeable.  Taking notes is not as noticeable because it is "common" to do in class.  Pulling out your phone to look at your scriptures is not noticeable in an LDS meeting... do that in a Catholic mass and you will be ogled like a fish in a fishbowl...

 

Yes, it is my opinion.  This whole thread is about opinions, in my opinion.  :)   Here's another of my opinions...In a meeting where someone maybe be sitting in front of me with a toddler eating cheerios, a child playing with a quiet book (in addition to the phones and notes), etc. knitting is not an issue.

[Guest MormonGator]

I play with Silly Putty in church all the time. Knitting is fine. At least you are there. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by MormonGator

[The Folk Prophet]

Knitting is fine. At least you are there. 

 

Not exactly in line with a good, better, best way of thinking.

 

That being said, I agree. Knitting is fine. And it's better someone comes to church and knits than not coming at all.

 

But that doesn't make it the best choice.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Actually, you are incorrect in this. A skilled juggler using small balls can juggle them while sitting such that the balls never rise above his shoulders, six to twelve inches. Hand motion is minimal.

 

 

I could say the same about juggling. I still don't think juggling is appropriate.

 

 

Six to twelve inches of balls flying through the air still strikes me as much more distracting than ANY of the other activities mentioned in this thread.  Of course that is my opinion.  At least we agree that juggling is not appropriate.  That's a start.  

 

Obviously, I disagree with your assertion that some arguments in this thread are more substantial than others--that is your opinion.

[Guest]

Yes, it is my opinion.  This whole thread is about opinions, in my opinion.   :)   Here's another of my opinions...In a meeting where someone maybe be sitting in front of me with a toddler eating cheerios, a child playing with a quiet book (in addition to the phones and notes), etc. knitting is not an issue.

 

Exactly.  So we shouldn't be talking about Church for one person's opinion.  We should be talking about Church as what is proper behavior to encompass the Spirit and purpose of the meeting for all...

 

I think the best comparison is Sunday clothes I mentioned earlier.  We don't want to put down people going to Church in jeans, but we do acknowledge that Sunday clothes is what is appropriate.

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[Bini]

I lost this discussion somewhere.

 

If it's not about distraction but about spirit, who's to say that the spirit cannot be present or be felt when doing x? And what is the overall concern here? Minding the business of others and what they are or aren't doing? Or minding our own and using the best judgment we are able?

[NightSG]

The problem with invoking "common sense" is that it is neither common nor, I think, obviously sensical. I see no obvious difference between knitting, tatting lace, and juggling small balls, at least insofar as their effect on others nearby.

 

Have you ever watched someone knit for more than about five minutes?  Might as well complain about the paint drying.

 

When I was growing up, great grandma knew two things well enough to teach them; the Bible and crochet.  (I don't consider eastern European cooking to be a skill insofar as it's just throwing cabbage and all the parts of an animal that nobody else wants in a pot for hours without enough seasoning.)  She would lay an open Bible or two on the table in front of her, and make an afghan while reading, stopping every few rows to pencil notes in the margins and turn the page.  Great granddad was rumored to do the same fairly often, but he died before I was born.  Mom knits while doing math in her head half the time as treasurer for a couple of volunteer groups. Grandma could run a Singer sewing machine or hand stitch as cleanly as the machine without missing a single word of even fairly complex recorded lectures, and would sometimes even debug programs (one of the last COBOL programmers at the local university) by propping up a printout on the front of the machine while tailoring or making new clothes.

 

I never felt any of them was in the least distracted by these skills, nor would I ever have considered asking them to stop and pay attention while I was talking to them.  I spent a fair chunk of the weekend making a scarf for a missionary while watching a few different movies, and don't feel like I missed any more of them than if I hadn't been "distracted."  Which leads to a question for the OP; why do you limit your inquiry to women?     (Not that I'd try working on the next project in church; a HLJ shawl for a missionary serving in South America that will require a good bit more attention to the pattern than just making row after row.)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Exactly.  So we shouldn't be talking about Church for one person's opinion.  We should be talking about Church as what is proper behavior to encompass the Spirit and purpose of the meeting for all...

 

I think the best comparison is Sunday clothes I mentioned earlier.  We don't want to put down people going to Church in jeans, but we do acknowledge that Sunday clothes is what is appropriate.

 

The question is who decides what is appropriate?  The opinion of the people who think its wrong or the opinion of the people who don't see a problem with it?  

I agree with Bini, and others who said it's a mind your own business thing.  If you are looking at the speaker, and focused on him/her, you won't notice someone on the next bench knitting.

[Guest]

I lost this discussion somewhere.

 

If it's not about distraction but about spirit, who's to say that the spirit cannot be present or be felt when doing x? And what is the overall concern here? Minding the business of others and what they are or aren't doing? Or minding our own and using the best judgment we are able?

 

My opinion is nothing about any of that.  Read my first post on this thread to get the gist... I mentioned clearly that it is my problem (I happen to be one of those distracted by knitting).

 

My opinion is about what it means to be Reverent.  And THAT has nothing to do with anybody's own business but solely the Lord's business.

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

That does it then. I'm bringing my model airplane to church this Sunday. I'll sit in the back and work on it. It's no one else's business but mine!

 

 

The question is who decides what is appropriate?  The opinion of the people who think its wrong or the opinion of the people who don't see a problem with it?  

 

How about Elder Oaks' opinion:

 

During sacrament meeting—and especially during the sacrament service—we should concentrate on worship and refrain from all other activities, especially from behavior that could interfere with the worship of others. Even a person who slips into quiet slumber does not interfere with others. Sacrament meeting is not a time for reading books or magazines. Young people, it is not a time for whispered conversations on cell phones or for texting persons at other locations. When we partake of the sacrament, we make a sacred covenant that we will always remember the Savior. How sad to see persons obviously violating that covenant in the very meeting where they are making it.