Knitting/Crafting in Church?

[Crypto]

^ this.

From what you are suggesting, It seems like I would get more out of church by just lingering long enough to participate in sacrament and then sit in the lobby and self studying the gospel, or staying at home.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

TFP, the Elder Oaks quote is good.  I'll consider saving my knitting for Sunday School and Relief Society.  :)  I don't think the other quotes apply though.  

 

Anatess, I agree that the key is reverence.  But we disagree on what defines reverence.  Knitting or doodling helps me concentrate and calm my anxiety, and thus increase my reverence.  Your mileage may vary.

[Guest]

^ this.

 

I tend to side with this as well.... I have RLS... so, I have to really mind my leg and still try to concentrate.  It is easier if I lose myself in the service of others (that is, I forget my discomfort and only think of other people's comfort).  But then, this is what Pres. Hinckley was saying in this talk that you (or was it Vort) linked to in the Sacrament Reverence thread:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/04/reverence-and-morality?lang=eng&query=appropriate+sacrament+meeting+behavior

 

quoted:

I wish that every father in the Church would make this a matter of discussion with his family at the next family home evening and occasionally in family home evenings thereafter. The subject for discussion might be something like this: “What each of us can do to improve the spirit of our sacrament meetings.” Wonderful things will happen if this is done.

 

And that's really all I'm doing... trying to do my part in improving the spirit in sacrament meetings.

 

To tell you the truth, I've been to many many churches - Christian and non-Christian alike - both sacrament meetings and bible studies and in all of those Churches, it is only in the LDS Church that this is even a question...

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[Vort]

 

As I told you before Vort, perhaps it is the weakness of written communication.  Not only can I not see your body language or hear voice inflections, but I really don't know you... I mean not in a real life sort of way.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intent.  But since you asked, at first your tone did seem inquiring, but then around the "juggling" point, you seemed to have made up your mind and had switched to debate rather than inquiry.

 

I really need something more solid than "Well, ya know, that's jist kinda how I wuz thinkin' ya sounded." Please point out specifically what my words were that indicated what you claimed toward me. I've done all the work of collecting them for you; all you need to do is go and pick out the offending sentences, in context. If you cannot do so, then just admit that you can't do so, and that your accusation was founded on nothing more than your own prejudices about me.

 

 

Now my turn, why does that bother you?

 

Because I consider it a false witness, a false accusation. If such an accusation is made, I expect it to be backed up with real evidence. Otherwise it's mere name-calling and, as I said, bearing false witness.

[Guest]

From what you are suggesting, It seems like I would get more out of church by just lingering long enough to participate in sacrament and then sit in the lobby and self studying the gospel, or staying at home.

 

No.  I don't think that's what he's saying... and it's not what I'm saying either.

 

All we're saying is to try.  If it's not possible, then it's not possible.  A physical condition is out of the norm - so crafting would also be out of the norm.  But even then, it doesn't exempt one from the desire to serve others.  But, if service is not possible, then it is not possible - but the desire should still be there.  So just saying "you should have compassion for me" is not the answer...and just saying, "Mind your own business" is even worse.  Rather, saying, "I feel for you, but I just can't do it, so please have compassion for me" is more the ticket, really.  But this goes both ways - not just you... this also applies to everyone else.

 

Do you understand what I'm saying?  I just feel that love/respect is not being emphasized when it needs to be present.

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[Vort]

This thread has become contentious. Sadly, I'm responsible for part of that. My apologies.

 

I think the idea is well worth discussing. I have not seen anyone say that Knitting Is Evil, though I admit I may have missed it. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to hold various views on this topic, and I think dismissing one side of the discussion with facile arguments is unconvincing and counterproductive. But if we (and I include myself) can't discuss these things without taking personal offense, whether or not that offense was intended, it's probably better to leave it alone.

[The Folk Prophet]

 I don't think the other quotes apply though.  

 

I would say the "amusement" part of Fielding Smith's quote directly applies. What else is knitting in church meant than as an amusement?

 

I would also content the "...distracting and signals a lack of respect for those around us..." from Lifferth applies, though less directly as it's talking about texting and the like. But the principle, as I said, is sound. This is pretty much exactly what someone knitting would signal to me.

[The Folk Prophet]

From what you are suggesting, It seems like I would get more out of church by just lingering long enough to participate in sacrament and then sit in the lobby and self studying the gospel, or staying at home.

 

You (and all of us) would get more out of church by humbling yourself, committing yourself to the holiness and worship of the matter, and having an eye single to the glory of God.

[Guest]

TFP, the Elder Oaks quote is good.  I'll consider saving my knitting for Sunday School and Relief Society.   :)  I don't think the other quotes apply though.  

 

Anatess, I agree that the key is reverence.  But we disagree on what defines reverence.  Knitting or doodling helps me concentrate and calm my anxiety, and thus increase my reverence.  Your mileage may vary.

 

LP... This is really my beef with your posts... it's all Me, Me, Me.  My reverence...  no consideration whatsoever given to others.  I mean, you can say the same thing and still be considerate of others... that's what's missing in your posts.

[NightSG]

To tell you the truth, I've been to many many churches - Christian and non-Christian alike - both sacrament meetings and bible studies and in all of those Churches, it is only in the LDS Church that this is even a question...

 

Being raised Methodist in a Baptist town with a few Pentecostal and Episcopal friends, a few women knitting or crocheting in church is pretty normal; not hauling the kids out to the hall when they're loud enough to distract people from the message is the "LDS only" thing.

[Vort]

Being raised Methodist in a Baptist town with a few Pentecostal and Episcopal friends, a few women knitting or crocheting in church is pretty normal; not hauling the kids out to the hall when they're loud enough to distract people from the message is the "LDS only" thing.

My experience is very limited, but fwiw, it's the same. Most people simply don't bring very young children to church, and if they do, the children are expected to behave themselves. It's a good thing that we encourage families to attend; that's how it should be, children and all. "Of such is the kingdom of heaven." But taking a disruptive child out of the meeting is common courtesy. And, if I may say so, common sense. It's amazing to me how many Saints just don't get it with this issue.

[The Folk Prophet]

Can I just say, I'm really enjoying this thread!

 

Other than the minor slip of semi-contention (which Vort admitted partial culpability and apologized for) I think it's remained quite civil. And, moreover, in spite of my fairly adamant orthodox views (surprise, surprise), I actually have really appreciated the differing views. Perhaps that's because there is some clear give and take on the matter than any reasonable person would need to accept, which allows me, in spite of my strong no-knitting p.o.v. to consider the pro-knitting view without feeling like I'm betraying a gospel principle or something. :) Heheh.

 

Anyhow, just wanted to share my appreciation. I know that oft times I come across as nothing but contrary to any sort of liberal view. And I am. I admit it. So I'll take this moment, in spite of my resolved consistent conservative angle on the matter, to share my feelings of good will to all.

 

To those of you who knit in church. In my opinion, shame on you -- sure.  But I love you anyway!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

 

Because I consider it a false witness, a false accusation. If such an accusation is made, I expect it to be backed up with real evidence. Otherwise it's mere name-calling and, as I said, bearing false witness.

 

 

False witness? Name calling?  That was not my intention, however, I apologize for being offensive.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

LP... This is really my beef with your posts... it's all Me, Me, Me.  My reverence...  no consideration whatsoever given to others.  I mean, you can say the same thing and still be considerate of others... that's what's missing in your posts.

 

So the problem isn't about reverence or anything else we've talked about...the problem is just that I am selfish.  Okay, thanks for the feedback.  

[The Folk Prophet]

So the problem isn't about reverence or anything else we've talked about...the problem is just that I am selfish.  Okay, thanks for the feedback.  

 

That's not what she's saying. She's saying that the argument you're making is centered from that point of view. She's saying that the argument is based on a selfish premise.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks TFP.  

[Guest]

That's not what she's saying. She's saying that the argument you're making is centered from that point of view. She's saying that the argument is based on a selfish premise.

 

TFP, I am appointing you as my Speaker.  You can't decline.  Thank you.

[Connie]

For a definition of reverence that hopefully everyone can agree on:  https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/reverence?lang=eng

[Guest]

Being raised Methodist in a Baptist town with a few Pentecostal and Episcopal friends, a few women knitting or crocheting in church is pretty normal; not hauling the kids out to the hall when they're loud enough to distract people from the message is the "LDS only" thing.

 

I've been in a Filipino Baptist Church in Florida, a Southern Baptist Church also in Florida and a Methodist Church in Ohio...  I've never seen this.

 

I've been to the International Church of Christ also in Florida and I didn't see any crafters there either but they are copious note takers.  It was pretty weird being the only one not taking notes in their Worship service... I didn't bring any writing implements.. .the next Sunday, I brought my journal but my Catholic-self just can't bring myself to write something while the pastor was giving a sermon...

 

I had a different challenge at the Born Again church... they talk back in the middle of a sermon... and even in the prayer!  Okay, they did that in the Baptist Church too - but not during the prayer.  I mean - yes, in the Catholic Church the congregation responds but it is prompted - other than the prompts, nobody speaks.  In the Born Again church, the pastor would say something and somebody in the congregation would say things like, That's Right!  Praise the Lord!  Hallelujah!  And even repeat the words of the pastor back to him.  So, the pastor would start the prayer and everyone would have their eyes closed and the pastor would say something like, "Lord Jesus, thank you for your Atonement" and somebody would yell out, "your Atonement, praise Jesus"... made me jump out...

 

Okay, come to think of it, I've never seen any Church crafters at the LDS Church either... nobody does it in any of the wards I've been in... and I've been to many of them in many places in the US and the Philippines.

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP, I am appointing you as my Speaker.  You can't decline.  Thank you.

 

Awesome. You just remember that the next time we disagree on something. I have power of attorney to determine your opinions now.

[Guest]

Awesome. You just remember that the next time we disagree on something. I have power of attorney to determine your opinions now.

 

Well.. I just have to make sure not to disagree with you! 

[Crypto]

No offense taken. Well... maybe a little, but not personally (If that makes any sense  )

 

 

You (and all of us) would get more out of church by humbling yourself, committing yourself to the holiness and worship of the matter, and having an eye single to the glory of God.

I agree with this completely. Though we still disagree on the topic heh.

 

 

No.  I don't think that's what he's saying... and it's not what I'm saying either.

 

All we're saying is to try.  If it's not possible, then it's not possible.  A physical condition is out of the norm - so crafting would also be out of the norm.  But even then, it doesn't exempt one from the desire to serve others.  But, if service is not possible, then it is not possible - but the desire should still be there.  So just saying "you should have compassion for me" is not the answer...and just saying, "Mind your own business" is even worse.  Rather, saying, "I feel for you, but I just can't do it, so please have compassion for me" is more the ticket, really.  But this goes both ways - not just you... this also applies to everyone else.

 

Do you understand what I'm saying?  I just feel that love/respect is not being emphasized when it needs to be present.

So there were some comments earlier about autism, and other conditions. I have family with autism and am informed on autism-spectrum disorders.You don't have to have a condition to learn Kinestheticly, though I remember reading a statistic that it is relatively low percentage of the population who are predominately Kinesthetic (5% ). Not that any of you are imply such things, just thought I would point it out.

I can see what you are saying, I guess my response is among the lines... Can you see how it would be selfish to insist that people who would do better with knitting and such to not do so? I think it goes both ways a bit.

Sorry if I was being a bit contentious.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto

[Guest]

 

No offense taken. Well... maybe a little, but not personally (If that makes any sense  )

 

 

I agree with this completely. Though we still disagree on the topic heh.

 

 

So there were some comments earlier about autism, and other conditions. I have family with autism and am informed on autism-spectrum disorders.You don't have to have a condition to learn Kinestheticly, though I remember reading a statistic that it is relatively low percentage of the population who are predominately Kinesthetic (5% ). Not that any of you are imply such things, just thought I would point it out.

I can see what you are saying, I guess my response is among the lines... Can you see how it would be selfish to insist that people who would do better with knitting and such to not do so? I think it goes both ways a bit.

Sorry if I was being a bit contentious.

 

 

I don't think you were being contentious at all.  I think our back-and-forth is the most helpful for me on this entire thread.

[Crypto]

I'm glad things weren't taken poorly. I worry about that continually via text communication

[Whew smiley face]  :) 

I've found your posts about respect also worth consideration. And I appreciate this thread much like Folk Prophet.

[The Folk Prophet]

I can see what you are saying, I guess my response is among the lines... Can you see how it would be selfish to insist that people who would do better with knitting and such to not do so? I think it goes both ways a bit.

 

First, no one is saying that they insist others do not knit. Exhortation and insistence are not the same thing.

 

Second, apply this back to the temple, where undoubtedly knitting would be disallowed (insisted). Do we call the temple presidency selfish then?

 

I do not find it selfish to exhort people to treat with reverence that which should be treated with reverence. If they "learn" better another way is not the point at all. Moreover, it's a wrong-headed premise about how we learn at church. We don't learn from the speakers. We learn from the Spirit. It doesn't matter a whit if one learns better in most circumstances while being distracted. I am one of those. I do much better with a distraction of some sort. (I have A.D.D. rather than something like autism). But the standard learning method is not what is in question here. It isn't even relevant. The key to learning in church is the Spirit. And the Spirit's standard of enlightening our minds is clearly set, not by our mortal proclivities or other natural "needs", but by strict standards that God has laid out. These involve reverence, respect, obedience, virtue, humility, and charity. These are the requirements of learning by the Spirit. And these, therefore, are the exhortations I have for any attending church. Disregard yourself and your needs (the selfish p.o.v. argument that anatess offended LP with ), and submit yourself to God in all manners, your dress, your attitudes, your actions, and your focus.

 

Exhorting others to this is the opposite of selfish. It is, actually, real concern for them and their well being. To do otherwise would be to disregard their well being in favor of -- I don't know -- some P.C. sense of never offending others I suppose.

 

I don't mind my own business because my fellow man IS my business. I care about them. I care that they actually learn in church, but that they learn as they need to -- by the Spirit. And so I will advocate behavior that is conducive to that end in every case.

Edited January 6, 2015 by The Folk Prophet