Knitting/Crafting in Church?

[The Folk Prophet]

And here's Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

Amusement, laughter, light-mindedness, are all out of place in the sacrament meetings of the Latter-day Saints. We should assemble in the spirit of prayer, of meekness, with devotion in our hearts

Edited January 6, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

The question is who decides what is appropriate?  The opinion of the people who think its wrong or the opinion of the people who don't see a problem with it?  

I agree with Bini, and others who said it's a mind your own business thing.  If you are looking at the speaker, and focused on him/her, you won't notice someone on the next bench knitting.

 

No... who decides what is appropriate is the exact same way we decide what dress is appropriate to wear to work, to school, to church... who says we have to wear a dress to church?  Who says we have to wear a suit?  Who says what is chaste?  Who says what is indecent?  Who says what is proper behavior in a theater?  In a museum?  At a wedding?  In Church?  On TV?

 

Is all that really a matter of opinion of the majority?  Or is there a better thing to base those etiquettes on?  Whatever it is, it's not Mind Your Own Business.  It is ROOTED on RESPECT.  And one can't be respectful if they can't think of other people... seems like the crafter side only wants others to give them consideration and not that they give others consideration... hence, pulling the Mind Your Own Business slap-down.  That's the problem in this discussion.

[The Folk Prophet]

Here's another opinion by Margaret S. Lifferth (1st Counselor in Primary Presidency - apr 2009). Doesn't directly address knitting, but the idea is relative.

 

We are a friendly people and we love each other, but reverence will increase if our socializing is done in the foyer and if sacrament meeting begins with the prelude music, not the opening prayer. We encourage reverence when we take a crying child out of the chapel and find another room where we continue to listen to the meeting until the baby is calmed or a disruptive toddler is soothed. Reverence includes turning off our cell phones and BlackBerry devices. Texting or reading e-mails in a Church meeting is not only irreverent, it is distracting and signals a lack of respect for those around us. So we exemplify reverence by participating in the meeting, listening to the speakers, and singing the hymns of Zion together.

[Bini]

My opinion is nothing about any of that.  Read my first post on this thread to get the gist... I mentioned clearly that it is my problem (I happen to be one of those distracted by knitting).

 

My opinion is about what it means to be Reverent.  And THAT has nothing to do with anybody's own business but solely the Lord's business.

Got it. Your opinion on what it means to be reverent.

[Crypto]

Church and temple services are not comparable. Temple ritual has multiple modes of teaching, visually, auditory, and kinesthetic elements. Most church lessons use only one, for a strongly kinesthetic learner with extremely weak learning preferences in visual and auditory, It is difficult for me to retain anything said or shown without tying it into one of my stronger modes for learning (for me this would be reading, or a simple activity) I do try and keep my learning experience as inconspicuous and non-distracting for others, but please try and have  a little compassion. I'm not uninterested or distracted from the meeting. (Can you tell this topic hits a personal note :) ) Also I'd like to note cellphones, books, games etc are not acceptable imo

Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto

[Guest]

Got it. Your opinion on what it means to be reverent.

 

Really?  You think I'm only talking about my opinion of what it means to be reverent and not what is taught at Church about what it means to be Reverent?

[Bini]

Point is still missed here. It is a matter of MYOB.

 

What's considered appropriate or inappropriate, respectful or disrespectful, doesn't matter. Bottom line: we cannot control others, only ourselves.

[Guest]

Church and temple services are not comparable. Temple ritual has multiple modes of teaching, visually, auditory, and kinesthetic elements. Most church lessons use only one, for a strongly kinesthetic learner with extremely weak learning preferences in visual and auditory, It is difficult for me to retain anything said or shown without tying it into one of my stronger modes for learning (for me this would be reading, or a simple activity) I do try and keep my learning experience as inconspicuous and non-distracting for others, but please try and have  a little compassion. I'm not uninterested or distracted from the meeting. (Can you tell this topic hits a personal note :-) )

 

Let me turn this around because this seems to be the main issue with crafters....

 

How about you try and have a little compassion for those sensitive to... whatever it is you need to do to gain more focus?

 

Do you see what I'm trying to get at about the Mind Your Own Business thing?

[Guest]

Point is still missed here. It is a matter of MYOB.

 

What's considered appropriate or inappropriate, respectful or disrespectful, doesn't matter. Bottom line: we cannot control others, only ourselves.

 

Bini, you keep on saying this... we get this.  That's not what we are addressing though.  Yes, one should mind one's own business.  But even then, we still teach Sunday is for Sunday clothes, not jeans... I really don't know how else to explain my point... it is COMPLETELY about what is appropriate... not just what is considered appropriate but what IS appropriate.  That's what I'm trying to discuss.

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[Vort]

Have you ever watched someone knit for more than about five minutes?  Might as well complain about the paint drying.

 

I have watched Sister Vort knit and crochet. I find it mesmerizing, certainly more interesting to watch than a simple three-ball juggle.

 

At some point, I am going to have my wife teach me to knit and crochet. I have wanted to learn it for years but have been too busy/lazy to learn.

[Bini]

Bini, you keep on saying this... we get this.  That's not what we are addressing though.  Yes, one should mind one's own business.  But even then, we still teach Sunday is for Sunday clothes, not jeans... I really don't know how else to explain my point... it is COMPLETELY about what is appropriate.

 

I won't even get started on Mormon tradition versus doctrine. There is way too much emphasis on the whole "women should wear dresses and men should be clean shaven" type stuff. It just isn't relevant to one's reverence, spirituality, or salvation. Again, my thoughts are aligned with common sense (to the best of one's judgment). I wouldn't recommend the yoga mat scenario or sporting a swimsuit to church. I made this clear before.

[Guest]

I won't even get started on Mormon tradition versus doctrine. There is way too much emphasis on the whole "women should wear dresses and men should be clean shaven" type stuff. It just isn't relevant to one's reverence, spirituality, or salvation. Again, my thoughts are aligned with common sense (to the best of one's judgment). I wouldn't recommend the yoga mat scenario or sporting a swimsuit to church. I made this clear before.

 

Sunday clothes is not just Mormon tradition.  It is general RESPECT tradition... there is appropriate work clothes, appropriate swim clothes, appropriate Broadway play clothes, appropriate party clothes, appropriate church clothes (does not matter what church)...  all of them having nothing to do with common sense but RESPECT.

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[NightSG]

I have watched Sister Vort knit and crochet. I find it mesmerizing, certainly more interesting to watch than a simple three-ball juggle.

 

But a three ball low juggle tends to be moving pretty quickly, with lots of jerky movements.  That's more distracting than a couple of needles or a crochet hook barely moving.

[NightSG]

I wouldn't recommend the yoga mat scenario or sporting a swimsuit to church. I made this clear before.

 

Aw, come on; our baptismal font is perfectly situated for some one-person water aerobics during Sacrament meeting.

[The Folk Prophet]

Sunday clothes is not just Mormon tradition.  It is general RESPECT tradition... there is appropriate work clothes, appropriate swim clothes, appropriate Broadway play clothes, appropriate party clothes, appropriate church clothes (does not matter what church)...  all of them having nothing to do with common sense but RESPECT.

 

Well, I wouldn't say "nothing" to do with. As I said earlier, what was once "common" sense is not so common nowadays though. So in that regard, it does have less to do with common sense. What's common nowadays is to not have much sense whatsoever. :)

[Guest]

But a three ball low juggle tends to be moving pretty quickly, with lots of jerky movements.  That's more distracting than a couple of needles or a crochet hook barely moving.

 

You know, somebody chewing gum is less distracting than knitting... growing up Catholic - gum chewing is very irreverent - not just at Church but also in Catholic school class (I got kicked out of class for this).  So, I propose Reverence is more than just what is more or less distracting...

[Crypto]

Let me turn this around because this seems to be the main issue with crafters....

 

How about you try and have a little compassion for those sensitive to... whatever it is you need to do to gain more focus?

 

Do you see what I'm trying to get at about the Mind Your Own Business thing?

 

So what would you propose as an ideal situation for all to be able to have focus. Let me list a few possibilities.

Don't craft at all. If you have trouble concentrating to bad?

Craft, but use some discretion don't be obvious. (Juggling is obvious, knitting is not)?

Who cares, do what you want?

 

Did I miss other options?

[edit: My moblie device just went haywire]

Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto

[Guest]

Well, I wouldn't say "nothing" to do with. As I said earlier, what was once "common" sense is not so common nowadays though. So in that regard, it does have less to do with common sense. What's common nowadays is to not have much sense whatsoever. :)

 

Well.. I have to say, the American culture sure don't do many respectful things anymore... 

Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess

[NightSG]

You know, somebody chewing gum is less distracting than knitting... growing up Catholic - gum chewing is very irreverent - not just at Church but also in Catholic school class (I got kicked out of class for this).  

 

Tell it to my bishop...or at least get him to chew with his mouth shut.

[Guest]

So what would you propose as an ideal situation for all to be able to have focus. Let me list a few possibilitiecancac[ progressprogressprogresprogreprogrprogproprp inini editeditediede(.

 

Follow the prophet is all I can say.. . But whatever it is the prophet is gonna say... I'm 100% certain it is not only thinking of one's self...

[Guest]

Tell it to my bishop...or at least get him to chew with his mouth shut.

 

Or many a speaker/teacher in my ward....  there's even one just recently that bore their testimony with every word or so said between loud clickity-clack of gum.  It still bugs me until today... it's one of those things one just don't do in the Catholic church - not the Priest, the lay ministers, nor the congregation... and it's stuck with me.

[Vort]

You are conflicted?  You don't come across that way.  Perhaps it is the limitations of written communication.

 

Okay, so this bothers me. I have been very careful in this thread, as I try to be in most threads, to express myself clearly. I often don't succeed. But that's my goal.

 

You (LiterateParakeet) claim that I "don't come across" as conflicted. Below, I am posting every one of the comments I made on this thread before you made that remark. Please point out to me exactly what I said, what wording I used, that suggests I am not conflicted. I've made it easy for you by including all my previous posts in one place.

 

On a personal level, I doubt I would be particularly bothered if people crocheted or knitted while I was speaking. Even if I noticed, I probably would not take offense.

 

On the other hand, there does seem to be something dismissive about engaging in another activity while someone is speaking to you, even congregationally. I tend to agree with PolarVortex that people at Church really should be putting their attention on the speaker and not on their handiwork. (Disciplining children, of course, is another matter entirely.)

 

 

Knitters/crocheters: From what has been written, I gather that you don't find your knitting at all distracting from listening to a speaker and even participating. Is this correct? If so, can you explain this? I'm trying to think of an activity I could do that requires coordination and purpose, such as counting stitches, yet requires absolutely no attention paid to it, so that I can do it and still be free to think about whatever else I want or converse without restriction. I can't think of anything. Is knitting really so different? Can you explain it in terms I can understand?

 

 

Maybe I do. I can't think of any. I've noticed girls who twiddle with or chew on their hair, or people that play with a pencil or something like that. Is that what knitting is? Just mindless, slightly obsessive hand-play? I have noticed that autistic people will sometimes have some sort of motion or "tic" that seems to calm them and allow them to subdue their reactions to things, maybe even concentrate better. Is that along the same lines as knitting?

 

I am not trying to make fun of knitters (or of autism). I realize this is not an uncommon thing, and it strikes me as a part of the human condition. I expect it manifests in me, too. I'm just not sure where. I'm trying to understand the mindset. It seems as if there's an attitude of, "What a waste to sit here for an hour just listening to someone without actually DOING something useful. If only I had brought my knitting..." But the idea here is that the discourse itself is not important enough, or at least that there's no good reason not to knit while you're only going to be sitting listening to someone anyway.

 

If the Lord himself were speaking, would it be acceptable to knit while listening? If not, how is knitting at Church fundamentally different? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting or pick a fight. I'm trying to get a good handle on this issue. My questions are sincere.

 

 

But neither sacrament meeting nor Sunday School (or RS/Priesthood meeting) is a "casual conversation". These are places where, we are taught, we should be 100% present and participating.

 

The question is not whether you personally would mind. That's irrelevant. I probably wouldn't mind, either, but the question is one of propriety, not whether you would get offended.

 

 

I am trying to get a feeling for where I stand on this issue. It is coming down to "it depends", which is uncomfortably squishy.

 

On the one hand, I reject the facile reasoning that it's perfectly harmless and allows the knitter to concentrate better. The example of knitting in the temple or of the bishop mindlessly stuffing envelopes while listening to a tearful congregant illustrate this point perfectly.

 

On the other hand, I have a little bit of experience with those dealing with autism spectrum issues, as I suspect we all do. The idea that they might knit in class to help them pay attention sounds, I don't know, brilliant, I guess.

 

 

This sounds good, but it really doesn't work on the larger level. Consider this: I focus better by juggling. I am so practiced at juggling that I can do it silently, and I pretty much never drop the balls. So I'm going to sit at the front of gospel doctrine class, or maybe at the back, and juggle all class long. And if anyone has a problem with that or finds it distracting, well, that's their problem, not mine.

 

No, I don't buy it. Juggling, as all manual activities, is inherently "interesting" and tends to draw the attention of others.

 

I am not arguing that you are wrong, just that I don't agree with the particular reasoning.

 

 

The problem with invoking "common sense" is that it is neither common nor, I think, obviously sensical. I see no obvious difference between knitting, tatting lace, and juggling small balls, at least insofar as their effect on others nearby.

 

 

But it's very much the same as temple instruction. Do you think knitting (or juggling) is appropriate there?

 

 

I understand that you feel this way, LP. But simply asserting your feelings doesn't make them so, or even convince me that you must be right. I think it's very much the same. Consider your previous post:

 

 

Your point was clear: Community and class worship is "not the same as" individual communication between two people. Therefore, knitting in sacrament meeting or Relief Society is a much different thing from knitting (or stuffing envelopes) in a personal interview with the bishop.

 

Granted, your distinction is valid in the above situation. I agree.

 

But what about temple worship? It is also a sort of communal worship. That is, of course it should be one-on-one, you with the Spirit -- but that is exactly the same as your position in other community worship scenarios! So what is the relevant difference between knitting during sacrament meeting and knitting at an endowment session? Is the endowment session somehow "more sacred" than a sacrament meeting? I think not! Then what?

 

As I have said before, I am conflicted in this topic. Neither side is obviously correct. But I would like to consider some deeper underlying reasons for doing one thing or the other, rather than just falling back on what looks like "common sense" to some of us.

[The Folk Prophet]

Don't craft at all. If you have trouble concentrating to bad?

 

^ this.

[mordorbund]

For an example of juggling on par with knitting, view this from 33-48 sec.

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

As I told you before Vort, perhaps it is the weakness of written communication.  Not only can I not see your body language or hear voice inflections, but I really don't know you... I mean not in a real life sort of way.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intent.  But since you asked, at first your tone did seem inquiring, but then around the "juggling" point, you seemed to have made up your mind and had switched to debate rather than inquiry.  Not that the former is bad, it's what we are all doing....but that is why I was confused when you said again that you were conflicted.

 

Now my turn, why does that bother you?