Unity

[Traveler]

It isn't the points of the arugument that are bullying. It is the unrelentless talking down to people to frustrate them to the point of abondoning the argument. I almost never even read the comments of a half dozen posters to this forum. TFP opened himself up because he 'sought' some understanding as to why we are not united. I am obliging with my 'opinion'. 

 

You, Traveler, are one of the top offenders, so I don't expect you to understand.

 

It is interesting to compare this forum to others. There is far more activity on other forums. There are hundreds of posts per day and thousands of responses. This forum can go a day or two without a new topic posted. I curious as to why. There is a lot of heated discussion on the other forums but perhaps for some reason people don't feel villified there. Just an observation.

 

Just so I understand - Bullying by your definition is  "talking down to people to frustrate them to the point of abondoning the argument"

 

and your statement "You, Traveler, are one of the top offenders, so I don't expect you to understand." looks like it qualifies according to your definition.  What was the point of the argument?  Is the statement an effort to vilify?

 

I do not think it is wise or effective to try to create unity by expecting something of others that you will not abide yourself?  

[Guest]

This is going well.

 

Please remember, posters, if you feel personally attacked or like a post violates site rules, please report using the link at the bottom of the offending post (rather than continuing the fight). 

[char713]

It is interesting to compare this forum to others. There is far more activity on other forums. There are hundreds of posts per day and thousands of responses. This forum can go a day or two without a new topic posted. I curious as to why. There is a lot of heated discussion on the other forums but perhaps for some reason people don't feel villified there. Just an observation.

 

Um, yes. That sounds a lot like me. I have had several ideas or questions over the past few weeks that I have considered posting here. I got very close to actually posting three of them, but I copied+pasted what I had written into a document on my desktop instead. One of those questions I actually sent in an email to my grandfather, since I really do need a response to that one. It will take longer to hear back from him than it would if I had just posted about the subject here.. but frankly it was and is just too intimidating to open myself up that much with some of the visitors to this forum. I am not nearly as well-versed in the scriptures or the teachings of former Prophets as I ought to be, but I don't care to have that drawn out as a fault, or have my earnest questions stomped on by those who are on a higher spiritual/intellectual plane than myself.

 

I do not mean that I am not actually wanting to hear those quotes and scriptures - on the contrary they are exactly what I am hoping to receive - the part that concerns me is the tone in which they are delivered. Sometimes it can be very pleasant and informative. But other times you just feel trampled on by a herd of larger and more robust creatures who, when they notice your squashed and worn state, tell you to buck up and adjust your attitude. My grandfather will answer my question at his own slow-typist pace, but I know he will do so with as much wisdom and knowledge AND as much gentleness and patience as the Savior might Himself. 

[Average Joe]

This is going well.

 

Please remember, posters, if you feel personally attacked or like a post violates site rules, please report using the link at the bottom of the offending post (rather than continuing the fight). 

 

FIGHT! FIGHT!! FIGHT!!! 

 

and remember, Marquess of Queensberry Rules! 

[pkstpaul]

I do not think it is wise or effective to try to create unity by expecting something of others that you will not abide yourself?  

I'm not makeing any claim to trying to create unity.  I'm not the OP wondering why there isn't more unity. I'm only trying to answer his question. I made my statement and I see others backing me up all through this thread. I'll shut up now.

 

I've never been warned on this forum and don't intent to be now.

[Vort]

and remember, Marquess of Queensberry Rules! 

 

Boring waste of time. If you're going to sport fight, do MMA.

[Guest]

 

Average Joe, on 10 Jun 2015 - 2:41 PM, said:

and remember, Marquess of Queensberry Rules!  

 

Boring waste of time. If you're going to sport fight, do MMA.

 

 

[Guest]

I'm really fighting the compulsion to change the title of this thread to, "Irony". 

[The Folk Prophet]

Apparently the answer to the question I raised is, "The Folk Prophet is the cause of all lack of unity in the church."

 

Who knew it was my fault that Zion hasn't come yet?

 

[Average Joe]

Boring waste of time. If you're going to sport fight, do MMA.

 

C'mon, if you really wanna get real, its gotta be a WWF cage match...or matched dueling pistols

[Average Joe]

 

Grandpa, c'mon inside and take your meds :)

[theSQUIDSTER]

Lot's of scriptures speak of one heart, one mind, etc.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/unity?lang=eng

 

But I find it quite obvious that there are many whose minds and hearts are simply not one with mine (I'm looking at you, you know who you are). And yet, we both claim to be adherents of the gospel.

 

Discuss.

 

How about a counter question ... or two... maybe more...:   

 

Was  Joseph Smith of one heart and mind with his bretheren?  If so, how so, when some of them didn't always agree with him?  If not, why not?  ... (and is there any hope for the rest of us?)

 

 

What does it really mean to be "one" ?  Are we getting any closer to being one as a people?

 

To me, being one is synonymous with being a Zion society... on a macro level.  Can one be "one" on the individual level ?  Perhaps one with the Lord ?  How on-the-same-page does one need to be with one's bretheren (and sisteren...   :)) in order to "BE ONE" ...?

 

 

Are the the General Authorities of the Church one?  If so, how?  Seeing as they have divergent backgrounds and personalities?  Is the Quorum of the 12 one with the First Presidency?

Edited June 11, 2015 by theSQUIDSTER

[Vort]

C'mon, if you really wanna get real, its gotta be a WWF cage match...or matched dueling pistols

 

I must admit that one of the things that always turned me off about MMA is the very high rate of WWF fans among them. (No offense to WWF fans; I know that many MMA practitioners are WWF fans. But I am not.)

[Anddenex]

TFP, I am a little late to respond to this thread as my thoughts weren't gathered (not fully sure they are still) although I have some insight.

 

First thought, is the relationship between God and Jesus Christ.  They are unified.  They are one.  As such our first efforts should be to be one in thought, desire, and purpose with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, then we should seek to be one of other saints.  This appears to follow the first two great commandments.  If all would seek this, unity with the saints is a by-product of unity with God.  So I assume the first question then is what is the thoughts, desires, and purpose of God?  Then strive with all our heart, might, mind, and strength to work within this purpose.

 

Second thought, is the relationship we have with the Holy Ghost.  We are informed in scripture that he that sketch according to the spirit will ask according to the will of God.  Unity will not be achieved without the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This concept correlates with Jesus saying, "the son can do nothing of himself" (John 5:19).  When we think and act in accordance with the spirit we will have the "mind of Christ" and all who do the same will eventually be one -- unified. 

 

Third thought, and this is one of the main reasons why I am glad I didn't post sooner, as we just read in family studies tonight, Helaman 11: 22-23.  The verses before speak of "peace" in the land.  Then in one year contentions arise.  Why do they arise, "contentions concerning points of doctrine which had been laid down by the prophets."  As if we don't see this today (*cough* Kate Kelly, and another individual member who talks about a "second baptism").  It wasn't until Nephi and Lehi spoke "true" points of doctrine did the strife/contention cease.  Who was Nephi -- a prophet.  

 

Fourth thought, itching ears.  Itching ears, stemming from the Lord's elect, will always cause strife and contentions in aspects of true doctrine, or as the scriptures specify they teach doctrines pleasing to themselves.  Babylonian scripture/doctrine can be added to Zion doctrine -- it is OK. It is bad to be "too good" (itching ears love this type of dialogue).

 

Fifth thought, "is it I"?  When the apostles were informed of a devil among them they all inquired, "Is it I"?  This to me, appears to be one of the most important principles to become one with God -- humility.  

 

Sixth thought, final thought, and see that ye have faith, hope, and charity which leadeth to all good works.  

 

Well, there you go, as pertaining to our Unity TFP, overall I find myself around 85% in unity with you and your thoughts, and the irony, it is not because I have sought to be unified with you but that through my personal studies and what the spirit has taught me, it appears the spirit has taught you the same thing.  Unity with God and Jesus, will ultimately lead to unity with my fellow saints.  Where then do we place our trust? :)

 

P.S. I probably used "irony" wrong but I like the word so I pasted it in.

[Vort]

P.S. I probably used "irony" wrong but I like the word so I pasted it in.

 

How ironic.

[The Folk Prophet]

You accept nothing but complete surrender that we are all failures because we are not perfect. If only we were more obedient, if only we were more in line.  

 

This is off the mark of reality by a fair amount. I accept nothing but truth, yes. That is very different than expecting perfection in people. It is a completely different issue to maintain that the principle that home teaching is a sacred calling that each of us should strive to fulfill than it is to call people failures for not getting 100% home teaching in every month. I have never called someone a failure for not being perfect and I never will do. If you can show me where I have ever done so I will gladly acquiesce, admit that I'm the horrible person you accuse me of being, and step away from the discussion forever.

 

This is clearly a case where you have determined in your own mind that I am the enemy somehow, and so everything I say gets tainted with your interpretation. But it's not reality.

 

If I knew you, I'd give Mrs. TFP a metal.

 

I cannot state this strongly enough. Please refrain from bringing my wife into your complaints against me. It is highly inappropriate, and there is little that could offend me more.

Edited June 11, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[jana7]

I lived in a ward where the Bishop made it a goal for us to become a ward family...........this was unifying for certain

 

I used to live in a ward where that didn't happen on too big of a scale, but we can still in those situations, strive to love all others anyway

Edited June 25, 2015 by jana7

[Guest]

I am trying to read every post but I'm just flummoxed.

This seems to be a very simple question with a very simple answer.

After trying to wade through 6 pages, one question stuck to my head: How do we get through this barrier?

Okay, here is my simple take on the matter:

The objective of the Plan of Salvation is so that we can have joy. We have joy if we become Gods. What makes a God is Will (not substance). So that, Jesus Christ prayed to the Father that we may become one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father. This means we gain perfect unity of our Will with God's.

So, let's take a husband and wife for example. We are to be one with our spouses - the marital covenant is the incubator for Godhood. As we become one with our spouse, we experience celestial joy.

But... how can we be one with our spouse? So, if my spouse is obsessed with NFL and I hate NFL, should I just force myself to love NFL or he learn to hate NFL so we can be one? What if my spouse is a dunderhead who beats up his children, how can I be one with that? What if I'm also a dunderhead who loves to gamble our money away, how can my spouse be one with me? What if we're both ISIS operatives who take joy in beheading all Christians - surely we are one and united?

The pattern of unity is set. We are not to be one with each other - rather, we are to all be one with Christ. As we come closer and closer to Christ, then we all come closer and closer to becoming one and united. So that we don't need to be one with dunderheads, we just need to be one with Christ and help/hope/pray that the dunderhead also becomes one with Christ then we both can be one together.

So that, the next time you all post something that you hope to get over the barrier - ask yourself, is this post getting me closer to Christ? It doesn't matter if the other post is or not - when yours is closer to Christ, you're one step there. Then you help somebody to get closer to Christ too. Calling him a dunderhead is probably not gonna get him closer to Christ - and it might even knock you a step farther yourself. So, even if you are right he is wrong it wouldn't matter - none of you are anywhere closer to that unity.

But of course, we are all imperfect people who are just trying our best to live the gospel the way we know how - and each one of us have different understanding of what Christ wants us to do. But what is really all that matters is that we all SINCERELY, HUMBLY, DILIGENTLY work towards getting closer to Christ and allow others to exercise their faith in their own understanding - so, as we teach gospel principles, we should concentrate more on teaching the ways to sincerely, humbly, and diligently seek Christ rather than argue over doctrine/not doctrine/whatever... we say what we believe, then teach others to sincerely, humbly, diligently seek the truth for themselves.

When our Will is closer to Christ, we are closer to being one, and we are closer to joy.

Edited June 25, 2015 by anatess

[Traveler]

I am trying to read every post but I'm just flummoxed.

This seems to be a very simple question with a very simple answer.

After trying to wade through 6 pages, one question stuck to my head: How do we get through this barrier?

Okay, here is my simple take on the matter:

The objective of the Plan of Salvation is so that we can have joy. We have joy if we become Gods. What makes a God is Will (not substance). So that, Jesus Christ prayed to the Father that we may become one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father. This means we gain perfect unity of our Will with God's.

So, let's take a husband and wife for example. We are to be one with our spouses - the marital covenant is the incubator for Godhood. As we become one with our spouse, we experience celestial joy.

But... how can we be one with our spouse? So, if my spouse is obsessed with NFL and I hate NFL, should I just force myself to love NFL or he learn to hate NFL so we can be one? What if my spouse is a dunderhead who beats up his children, how can I be one with that? What if I'm also a dunderhead who loves to gamble our money away, how can my spouse be one with me? What if we're both ISIS operatives who take joy in beheading all Christians - surely we are one and united?

The pattern of unity is set. We are not to be one with each other - rather, we are to all be one with Christ. As we come closer and closer to Christ, then we all come closer and closer to becoming one and united. So that we don't need to be one with dunderheads, we just need to be one with Christ and help/hope/pray that the dunderhead also becomes one with Christ then we both can be one together.

So that, the next time you all post something that you hope to get over the barrier - ask yourself, is this post getting me closer to Christ? It doesn't matter if the other post is or not - when yours is closer to Christ, you're one step there. Then you help somebody to get closer to Christ too. Calling him a dunderhead is probably not gonna get him closer to Christ - and it might even knock you a step farther yourself. So, even if you are right he is wrong it wouldn't matter - none of you are anywhere closer to that unity.

But of course, we are all imperfect people who are just trying our best to live the gospel the way we know how - and each one of us have different understanding of what Christ wants us to do. But what is really all that matters is that we all SINCERELY, HUMBLY, DILIGENTLY work towards getting closer to Christ and allow others to exercise their faith in their own understanding - so, as we teach gospel principles, we should concentrate more on teaching the ways to sincerely, humbly, and diligently seek Christ rather than argue over doctrine/not doctrine/whatever... we say what we believe, then teach others to sincerely, humbly, diligently seek the truth for themselves.

When our Will is closer to Christ, we are closer to being one, and we are closer to joy.

 

I think you have missed something that to me is obvious.  The first step in unity is not being right.  The first step in unity is sacrifice.  In the case of the dunderhead - that is the greatest sacrifice and is most like the sacrifices of G-d. And for those that think sacrifice is giving in - they do not understand the sacrifice of G-d or his son.

[Guest]

I think you have missed something that to me is obvious. The first step in unity is not being right. The first step in unity is sacrifice. In the case of the dunderhead - that is the greatest sacrifice and is most like the sacrifices of G-d. And for those that think sacrifice is giving in - they do not understand the sacrifice of G-d or his son.

I did not say that the first step is being right. Rather, the first step is being righteous.

I'm not sure that the first step is sacrifice. Just to put this in an example: the ISIS operative sacrificed all that he has to follow Muhammad and join the war to behead Christians. He is nowhere closer to unity.

[The Folk Prophet]

Of course righteous is a modeling of what would have been rightwise or rightways, as in on the right path, as in being right. Though I gather that Traveler struggles with the difference between winning a debate and actually being right.

 

Edit: Stinkin' typos!!

Edited June 26, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

Sacrifice comes from the same root as sacred or to make sacred thus it is impossible to be righteous or right without the intent to make sacred or sacrifice.

[The Folk Prophet]

Sure, but sacrifice what? And for whom?

[Traveler]

Of course righteous is a modeling if what would have been rightwise or rightways, and in on the right path, as in being right. Though I gather that Traveler struggles with the difference between winning a debate and actually being right.

You completely misunderstand me and the reason I post. For me winning or being right is not the purpose of a debate or discussion no one would post without thinking they are right. Since I understand this about others my personal reason for discussion is to bring new ideas and thoughts to the table that are unknown or being ignored.

There is a saying - someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. My whole purpose is to encourage thinking outside the little box we tend to think in. If I can convince someone to consider something new and discover some new truth they have not yet realized even if it is different from my conclusions then Perhaps we both can win a new perspective. If it is not a win for others then it is not a win for me.

[Traveler]

Sure, but sacrifice what? And for whom?

What in your mind should not be sacred and for who did Jesus not include in his sacrifice?